Careless driving?

dubguy25

On Friday I was coming home from work on the N2 at Glasnevin heading outbound. There is a right turn for Griffeth Ave. and always a queue of cars in the lane and out onto the main road. I was in the right hand lane approaching this, and pulled over into the left, there was no traffic in the left lane and I indicatied. Continued to drive and when I was in Finglas, a copper on a bile pulls me over, he reads out the acts of the road, asks me where did i buy my licence and asked me when can you turn into the left lane. He said i didnt have a clue and to get driving lessons and a rules of road book, anyway now i'm going to court for carless driving, Ive had a full licence for 4 years, driving for 9, and thats what i do everytime i go up that road. He called it overtaking on the left which is apparently illegal, I was just switching lanes. So in court its gonna be his word against mine, I might as well not say anything... whats the max that can happen in court for dangerous driving? any views?

leeroybrown

I won't comment on the legalities of what you did as I have no knowledge of that section of road.

The official penatlies for careless driving are:

- 5 points
- 1500 euro fine (max)
- 3 month prison scentence (max, rarely given to my knowledge)

You also mention dangerous driving but this a far more serious offence and not one you are concerned with.

Alun

I don't know the road in question, but let's get this straight (your description was a little unclear on a number of points). Was this a dual carriageway with a small slip road with traffic lights for right turning traffic? And you pulled over into the left lane to avoid having to stop behind right turning traffic which had 'overflowed' onto the main carriageway? If so, then I see nothing wrong with that at all, except that if the left lane was empty you maybe should have been in that lane anyway.

As an aside, what is it with the unprofessional attitude of traffic police here ... all that 'where did you buy your driving licence?' crap?

Litcagral

Are you telling us the whole truth? If so it sounds like you have been treated harshly. AFAIK one is entitled to "overtake" on the left if traffic has built up on the right and have indicated their intention to turn right. I presume you didn't cause or almost cause an accident. Maybe it was mistaken identity. At least in court you will be given an opportunity to argue your case. I think you have been treated unfairly. Did you ask the Garda what you did wrong?

mikemac

I know that stretch of road.

Seems to me you did nothing wrong. Have you checked the Rules of the Road.

I'd imagine that the guard knows what he's talking about so you will be found to be in the wrong.

Hard luck. I've seen driving 100 times more dangerous than what you've done

Litcagral

dubguy25 wrote:

On Friday I was coming home from work on the N2 at Glasnevin heading outbound. There is a right turn for Griffeth Ave. and always a queue of cars in the lane and out onto the main road. I was in the right hand lane approaching this, and pulled over into the left, there was no traffic in the left lane and I indicatied. Continued to drive and when I was in Finglas, a copper on a bile pulls me over, he reads out the acts of the road, asks me where did i buy my licence and asked me when can you turn into the left lane. He said i didnt have a clue and to get driving lessons and a rules of road book, anyway now i'm going to court for carless driving, Ive had a full licence for 4 years, driving for 9, and thats what i do everytime i go up that road. He called it overtaking on the left which is apparently illegal, I was just switching lanes. So in court its gonna be his word against mine, I might as well not say anything... whats the max that can happen in court for dangerous driving? any views?

There is no right turn from the N2 onto Griffith avenue. Are you confusing the N2 with St Mobhi Road? Or Griffith avenue with Violet hill?

cormie

We need diagrams:)

Go here, zoom in to the area, press "print screen", go into paint, press paste and do a bit of editing:)

Capt'n Midnight

were you driving at normal speed in the left lane ?

did the left lane have a left turn only sign ?

Alun

Is this the place?



Looks like there's a right turn to me, although it's a bit unclear from the photo.

Little-Devil

Im not sure where your talking about, but if it had a broken white line on the road then by law you can over-take.

I wouldn't really say anything in court when it comes up as its dangerous driving. When it comes around if the copper doesn't turn up then the case is thrown out of court, happens all the time.

Litcagral

Alun wrote:

Is this the place?



Looks like there's a right turn to me, although it's a bit unclear from the photo.

Yes - that's Violet Hill/ Old Finglas Road junction - not Griffith avenue.

dubguy25

This is the dual-carrage way (N2) in glasnevin, the right turn is called the old finglas road, most people use it to get onto grrifth ave. after turning left onto tolka estate road. The N2 goes back into a buslane soon after this right hand turn. Yes it is a dual dual carriageway with a small slip road with traffic lights for right turning traffic, I pulled over into the left lane to avoid having to stop behind right turning traffic which had 'overflowed' onto the main carriageway. As I said the left lane was empty, and didnt nearly cause any sort of accident. The left lane is normally a buslane, except for about 500 meters before and after this right turn. The copper says I was overtaking on the left, which according to him is illegal and carless...

Litcagral

There is 2 lanes and a dedicated lane for turning right and the traffic regularly extends back into the ordinary lane. AFAIK there is a bus lane on the left. Maybe the Garda was in the OP's blind spot and he nearly knocked him off his bike!

Alun

Litcagral wrote:

Yes - that's Violet Hill/ Old Finglas Road junction - not Griffith avenue.

I have to say that I don't know the area at all, but from the map it appears to turn into Griffith Avenue, hence the confusion, maybe.

Alun

dubguy25 wrote:

The copper says I was overtaking on the left, which according to him is illegal and carless...

I'd say he was talking out of his @arse , then

Litcagral

Little-Devil wrote:

I wouldn't really say anything in court when it comes up as its dangerous driving. When it comes around if the copper doesn't turn up then the case is thrown out of court, happens all the time.

I'd go with Little-Devil's advice on this on. Even if he does turn up he may have a more informed attitude.

dubguy25

yes thats the place with the maps, theres one dedicated right turn lane...another thing i cant figure out is that the copper didnt pull me over until finglas close to Tesco/Burgerking which is maybe 500 meters away

Litcagral

dubguy25 wrote:

i cant figure out is that the copper didnt pull me over until finglas close to Tesco/Burgerking which is maybe 500 meters away

That is a common practise. he may have been observing your driving. An unmarked car followed me for five miles one time following a minor infringement before pulling me over.

jayok

dubguy25 wrote:

This is the dual-carrage way (N2) in glasnevin, the right turn is called the old finglas road, most people use it to get onto grrifth ave. after turning left onto tolka estate road. The N2 goes back into a buslane soon after this right hand turn. Yes it is a dual dual carriageway with a small slip road with traffic lights for right turning traffic, I pulled over into the left lane to avoid having to stop behind right turning traffic which had 'overflowed' onto the main carriageway. As I said the left lane was empty, and didnt nearly cause any sort of accident. The left lane is normally a buslane, except for about 500 meters before and after this right turn. The copper says I was overtaking on the left, which according to him is illegal and carless...

H0ly sh1t. I do this the whole time. Cannot believe he done you for dangerous driving.

Basically in case anyone is still unclear, the N2 has two lanes and it's mixed BUS lane and car lane. There is a bus lane and ONE general lane just before the right turn up Old Finglas Road. About 300 metres from the right-turn the bus lane ends and it becomes a TWO lane carriageway. In heavy traffic the right turn traffic builds on the outside. Because the bus lane has ended you can now move from the right lane to the left lane to avoid being stuck behind the traffic waiting to turn right.

Sound to me like this is going on:

You moved from the right to the left lane and accelerated, the people still in the right lane were going slower than you and NOT turning right you technically are being done for undertaking - or dangerous driving. However, this happens the whole time (not necessarily in an agressive manner BTW) I'd say you just met a cop who was having a bad day.

This make sense as he asked you when can you over take on the left. In court I would take the stance that you over took on the left as the traffic was turning right. You could say after undertaking the driver you undertook decided to continue onwards and "forced" you into an illegal under-taking position.

Of course, all this assumes that you aren't some Pup Civic driver under-taking the moving traffic, while accelerating hard in second gear after riding 1 inch within the rear bumper of the car in front!

colm_mcm

out of interest, what car were you driving?

cormie

The ROTR states you're allowed undertake if the right lane is moving slower than the left.

_Kaiser_

dubguy25 wrote:

Continued to drive and when I was in Finglas, a copper on a bile pulls me over, he reads out the acts of the road, asks me where did i buy my licence and asked me when can you turn into the left lane. He said i didnt have a clue and to get driving lessons and a rules of road book

There's the problem right there. Another arrogant cop on a power trip. They know that there's nothing you can do, cause as you pointed out it's your word against his, so they can get away with blatent abuse of their authority and the public :mad:

jayok

cormie wrote:

The ROTR states you're allowed undertake if the right lane is moving slower than the left.

Careful here, this is only while queueing i.e. in traffic-jams. It does NOT mean you can undertake when the right lane is doine 50 and you want to do 80.

dubguy25

i think i might have mentioned dangerous driving at the end of my first tread...i meant careless driving...i was driving a diesel avensis, fairly slow acceration and im still trying to figure out how he seen me becuase there was nobody in the left lane, and thats were the copper would have been.

Litcagral

jayok wrote:

the people still in the right lane were going slower than you and NOT turning right you technically are being done for undertaking - or dangerous driving.
QUOTE]


It doesn't matter that they were technically NOT turning right at the time. It is suffice to overtake in the left once they were indicating their intention to turn right, or move into the filter lane for turning right.

cormie

jayok wrote:

Careful here, this is only while queueing i.e. in traffic-jams. It does NOT mean you can undertake when the right lane is doine 50 and you want to do 80.

Yeah, the M50 springs to mind for both cases. When there is heavy traffic on the M50, if cars in the LH lane are overtaking the right hand lane, that's fine. But yes, if there are no cars in the LH lane and they are all in the RH lane, then you're not supposed to overtake in the LH lane. But.. they shouldn't be in the RH lane unless they are overtaking so the result is everyone doing the speed the dude at the front is doing. If he is staying in the RH lane doing 80kmph on the Motorway and wont budge, then legally, nobody else should be doing more than 80 behind him. I don't know this road in particular though:o The right hand lane should never be moving slower than the left hand lane on a motorway in light traffic. It's impossible if the rules are being followed, unless it's the extreme left in cases such as slip roads.

jayok

Litcagral wrote:

It doesn't matter that they were technically NOT turning right at the time. It is suffice to overtake in the left once they were indicating their intention to turn right, or move into the filter lane for turning right.

Well that's what I meant by turning right, either mid-manoevour or indicator on. Once again words fail me!

To the OP - would it be possible he was in your blind spot when you moved into the left lane? Thus he appeared to be upon you in no time?

BTW I would definately challenge this...

Litcagral

jayok wrote:

To the OP - would it be possible he was in your blind spot when you moved into the left lane? Thus he appeared to be upon you in no time?

QUOTE]


That's what I suggested in an earlier post. He may have almost knocked him off his bike which may explain the cop's annoyance

dubguy25

<quote>To the OP - would it be possible he was in your blind spot when you moved into the left lane? Thus he appeared to be upon you in no time?


no he definetly wasnt in my blind spot, i was saying it was about 2 or 3 mins after the illegal and carless manouver, he pulled me at finglas about 500-700 meters away, i have no idea how he seen me

seamus

It sounds like you were just unfortunate. In this instance, the overtaking on the left rule which applied was "Where the driver ahead of you is turning right and has moved out and given a right-turn signal". So unless the car in front of you was indicating right, then you were technically in the wrong. If the traffic in front of you was stopped though, the Garda must have just had a bad day.

Kersh

i was saying it was about 2 or 3 mins after the illegal and carless manouver, he pulled me at finglas about 500-700 meters away, i have no idea how he seen me

thats how long it took him to pick himself up off the deck after you ran him over -
Really though, please do challenge it, and drag this thread back up to tell us what happened.

ballooba

A lot of people would be familiar with the junctions approaching Merrion Sq from Leeson St. the right hand lane is for going right or straight ahead. Taxis always take the left lane so as to avoid the people turning right in the right hand lane. Some of the people they overtake may not be turning right, so techincally they are undertaking these people.

Corben Dallas

U might not get summomed, if u do please get some legal advise on this. They will tell u how strong /weak the offence you're charged with.

Sounds like u got him on a bad day(which might wokr in your favour) doesnt matter how long it took to pull u over, they dont have to pull u straight away, they could be observing your driving or waiting for a safer place to pull u over.

imo if all the traffic was turning right (indicators on etc) then u should be able to overtake on the left(cause u are goin straight on)? unless u where driving in the bus lane?

TempestSabre

Seems pretty weak. Cop on off day/power trip TBH. When you have people driving with no tax/insurance, doing 70mph through estates, and 100+ on the M50, had he nothing better to do. Have similar experiences with cops in the past. Makes me mad :mad:

Big Balls

I was pulled in by guards who followed me at 120mph on the M50 at 1 in the morning.. they said they were going to do everything save murder me and I never heard anything of it except produced my insurance cert.

That was 12 months ago.

I'd wait and see if you even get a summons - and if a guard asked me where I bought my licence I'd ask him for his Garda number.

t5pwr

Go and get legal advice and I would also ask them about the comments that he made to you as you could get off on being ill treated.

I just think you need to go to someone who knows the law backwards on these kind of things and it could save you getting points... It may cost you to get someone but it will cost you on insurance if you don't.

That is if you get summoned of course...

alias no.9

I don't know the junction that well but off the top of my head I think it goes like this... the left hand lane is a buslane that becomes a driving lane just before the junction until just after the junction, the central lane is the normal driving lane and there is a short filter lane on the right for turning right. To the best of my knowledge there is an entrance to an apartment complex at the same lights on the left. I don't know what way the road markings are in terms of arrows etc... but the junction layout would be consistent with that left hand lane, after the buslane ends but before the junction, being a filter lane for turning left into the apartment complex and the short stretch after the junction, before the bus lane starts again, being a merging lane for traffic exiting the apartment complex. I'm open to correction, but the reason you've been stopped was for using a left turning filter lane to pass a line of traffic, on the inside, when you were going straight on.

Alun

t5pwr wrote:

That is if you get summoned of course...

That's another thing ... you often read on here about people who are stopped by the Gardai, given a real dressing down about some alleged offence, and are then left wondering whether they're going to be charged with anything, and if so, what for, for weeks or months on end. Why the hell can't they (like every other country I know of) give you some kind of ticket informing you of what you're being charged with? I assume they fill out some kind of paperwork on the spot with reg number, driver details etc, so why not just give you a carbon copy of that, or is that too simple?

Alun

alias no.9 wrote:

I don't know the junction that well but off the top of my head I think it goes like this... the left hand lane is a buslane that becomes a driving lane just before the junction until just after the junction, the central lane is the normal driving lane and there is a short filter lane on the right for turning right. To the best of my knowledge there is an entrance to an apartment complex at the same lights on the left. I don't know what way the road markings are in terms of arrows etc... but the junction layout would be consistent with that left hand lane, after the buslane ends but before the junction, being a filter lane for turning left into the apartment complex and the short stretch after the junction, before the bus lane starts again, being a merging lane for traffic exiting the apartment complex. I'm open to correction, but the reason you've been stopped was for using a left turning filter lane to pass a line of traffic, on the inside, when you were going straight on.

If you look very carefully at the aerial photo, you can see an arrow on the road well before the apartment complex that appears to be a combined straight-on and turn-left arrow.

dubguy25

I dont think im gonna get legal advice, if anything happens, ill go to all the papers i can, and the local finglas papers, i've been waiting for some reason to get out of this ****ty ****ty country.