The Hand that did for me in the grand slam - opinions.

Fatboydim

The Grand Slam was a great experience and overall I was pleased with my play. I never got a great rush of cards and was short stacked for most of the tournament despite starting well. No aces. Kings once but no callers. AK a couple of times but limited action. But here is the hand that finally sealed my fate.

Table is six handed. Blinds were 16k / 8k. I’m SB. Robert Cohen [Fr] BB. Padraig Parkinson all in UTG for 7k. Jean-Bernard Boht [Fr] flat calls 16k…. … He would have raised if he was strong. Then it’s folded around to me in SB. Now the way the French are playing is very tactical therefore I’ve got a strong suspicion that if I flat call I’ll see the flop. Cohen will only raise if he’s strong especially since JB has limped. And I want to offer Padraig some protection. I look and see 67os not the strongest hand but playable. Sure enough Cohen checks and we see the flop. 10, 7, 4 rainbow. I’m first to act. I decide to push with second pair. All in. I have everyone but Cohen covered and I’m sure he’ll fold. JB can only call if he’s holding a ten and even then he might have concerns over his kicker. I have been playing tight and he may read me as stronger than I am. Also because of the team play aspect my all in may not show weakness so much as a desire to protect my teams position. Anyway… JB agonised over his decision and even called the tournament director over for clarification on points… He eventually called and turned over J 10. I failed to improve. And I soon joined Padraig and the railbirds.

There is no doubt in my mind that if it wasn’t for the team play aspect I would have mucked the hand on the blinds. Certainly I was kicking myself afterwards as Donnacha got knocked out after me and JB made the final table. But what’s the opinion Donkey Play or unlucky gamble?

Culchie

What stack had you? What was average stack? What was point structure?

RoundTower

You played this quite well or very badly. Unfortunately there's no way to tell which without knowing the stack sizes.

Fatboydim

Sorry yes - meant to put that down.

I was on 156k at start of play on day two ... JB was on 148k I had stolen one blind from him and he had stolen one blind from me. Average stack was 400k

cardshark202

You said yourself that you thought JB wasn't that strong. I think if you're looking to play this hand in this position you have to squeeze. That way you have a chance of getting it heads up between yourself and Padraig and you will win 18k from the side-pot. What were the stack sizes though as they would affect your ability to pull off this play.

Edit: Seeing your stack size i think a re-raise to 55k would be enough to push both the others out of the pot(assuming your reads are correct) as I don't think you can afford to limp here given your stack size.

RoundTower

I might easily have played the hand the same way, not in a team event, but normally I would check and fold this flop. I think 45k is too small a raise to force the early player out, and any more commits you to the pot, so if you raise preflop it should probably be all in.

I always complete my blind here, I think folding is too tight getting 7-1 from the pot.

Gholimoli

deffom reraise here if you want to play.
your image is thigh and you as u said your self if JB was strong he would have reraised.your position is horrible for after the flop play.going to this flop with your intention your gonna have to come out firing into 2 people.
if that was your intend going in to the hand,i think a big reraise pre flop and then a push after the flop(seen as your first to act) would work much better cuz you more than likely get read of BB and be left with just JB .

NickyOD

I don't really understand the thinking behind giving Padraig protection here. He has less than half a big blind. He's ****ed!! Surely its better for the team if you don't commit any more chips to this pot after the flop unless you hit it hard. The last thing you want is for bvoth of you to bust.

Ollieboy

well done Len, I'm glad you enjoy it.

With Parkinson moving all in UTG with 7k, I would have not been to worried about protecting him, as he's playing any 2 cards in this position for value before the blinds come to him. The only way to protect him, would have been to push preflop all in and hope not to get called and hopefully he would have taken the pot down between the two of you. But with 7k and your stack been 140k, the important things was for you to get up the points ladder.

So when you hit 2nd pair, a small bet for information, or a check would have been the correct and normal play. After that, you would know what to do, which would have been to fold.

But its easier to say all this after the event, so dont get to hung up on it. I heard you played really well and the team in general were unlucky on day 2. There's always next year.

cardshark202

Yeah the raise pot-commits you which is generally enough to make most players fold their marginal hands given your stack size. I suppose folding is too weak but I think raising a third of your stack or going all-in are the better options. Yeah the more I think about it the more I believe going all-in is the best option here. The move on the flop was extremely risky.

CoD

I think it was fine Len. (Perhaps you were influenced by me saying he was passive) You cant bet out normally as it'll leave you 100k, and you already needed a double thru.

JB played on my right for most of the tourney. I was involved with 3 hands with him, he laid all 3 down. 1 to a bet after he checked, the other 2 were reraises. Perhaps this had even annoyed him, and made him want to be more risky/agressive on the new table.

At the end of the day against this player, I think it was a good play, he lays everything down but top pair, with a decent kicker, as he needs the double through too.

Doc Farrell

go on len ya good thing!

was wondering how u got on......

Fatboydim

CoD wrote:

I think it was fine Len. (Perhaps you were influenced by me saying he was passive) You cant bet out normally as it'll leave you 100k, and you already needed a double thru.

I think you might have a point there

In hindsight I'm not killing myself over this play... as I think that it really came down to trying to make a move... If he had AK he would have folded.

I did make a definite game plan decision to go after this player as he was the only player on the table with less chips than me.. I don't think I would have been allowed to raise pre-flop with the cards I had [There were rules to ensure no collusion and the French would have kicked up a fuss I'm sure.]

As it was Padraig won the hand when he hit an ace. Had he then doubled through again he could have lasted a little longer and made a few more points for the team. Of course had I not got involved I would have been the longest lasting player on the team as Donnacha was out before I finished my interview. As Padraig said... we were lining up.

Oh well spilt milk now...

RoundTower

Fatboydim wrote:

I don't think I would have been allowed to raise pre-flop with the cards I had [There were rules to ensure no collusion and the French would have kicked up a fuss I'm sure.]

What were the rules? You have to have KJ or better to raise from the small blind? Or more along the lines of you can't do anything to help your team mates? You've already said you were trying to protect Padraig in this hand, was this in breach of the rules or was a little bit of team play OK so long as you don't raise marginal hands in the blinds?

CoD

There was rules in such that, if there was a hand where 2 players from the same country were involved, and everyne else folded leaving the 2 same country men to play, they had to check it down.

To stop chip dumping.

You could also have players cards checked by a tourny director if you thought ppl were playing like this.

The french were kicking up a fuss over anything and everything. The best example was when (i think it was dave) pushed all in, with 4 stacks of chips, he pushed them all over the line in one movement. But because they were if blocks of 2 by 2, they tried to call a string bet, as the first 2 stacks crossed first!!! (hard to explain)

Fatboydim

I’m fairly certain that if I had raised with 67os pre-flop that the French would have asked for my cards to be looked at. It would be legitimate to raise with in a non-team event but I think there would have been a fuss. Like later on at the final when they removed the rule about playing against each other. [As team prize was secured] They even questioned a hand where one Scot had a full house against another and the way he threw his chips in. Even though the second Scot had nothing after the flop. So they were very rigorous. At the end of the day though I’m unlikely to come up against this kind of situation again. So one to notch up for experience.