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Hand from City West €1000

  • 13-01-2006 4:26pm
    #1
    Closed Accounts Posts: 2,506 ✭✭✭


    Okay, if you read the reports on Antes Up you probably know the result of the hand in question but I want to hear other peoples opinions on the way it was played.

    I have 9600 and blinds are 50/100. I am in big blind. LAG player from Galway (who has 15k and just lost 3k with 33 the previous hand) raises to 300 from the cut off. I am the only caller. I have 55.

    Flop K 5 2 rainbow

    Pot size 650, I bet 400 which is called.

    Turn A two hearst now on board

    Pot size 1450, I bet 800 which is called.

    River 4 no flush available.

    Pot size 3050, I bet 1000, raised to 3000.

    Call, fold or All In ?


Comments

  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 7,754 ✭✭✭ianmc38


    I'm probably wrong, but i'd have to smooth call this. Still have 20+BB left. If he has 33 again i'd be clinically depressed that he called you down with it. Or if he has A3 or K3 it would really grind my gears.


  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 8,806 ✭✭✭Lafortezza


    All that's beating you is 3x, AA or KK, so I'd push probably.


  • Closed Accounts Posts: 320 ✭✭CoD


    I'd bet more on the turn, he called the 1/2 pot flop bet, so i'd go for pot bet on the turn. The way it was played here, I'd go all in anyway.

    1 other thing, blinds are 100/200 but he raised TO 300?
    Were the blinds 50/100 maybe, or 75/150?


  • Closed Accounts Posts: 2,506 ✭✭✭Shortstack


    CoD wrote:
    I'd bet more on the turn, he called the 1/2 pot flop bet, so i'd go for pot bet on the turn. The way it was played here, I'd go all in anyway.

    1 other thing, blinds are 100/200 but he raised TO 300?
    Were the blinds 50/100 maybe, or 75/150?

    Blinds edited well spotted :)

    Will comment on why I bet 1000 when a few more responses are in.


  • Closed Accounts Posts: 1,467 ✭✭✭Norwich Fan Rob


    pre flop raise, flat call, flat call, raise hmmm, thats how a lot of people would play KKK, too risky to reraise in my opinion, unlikely he has a 3 though.


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  • Closed Accounts Posts: 4,476 ✭✭✭Samba


    O.k,

    Two reasons for betting the 1k, do you have a 3? Or induce a bluff at the pot which you know the villain will make

    Has this player been involved in many pots? what's his termperment like after the 33 hand? Has he been caught bluffing?

    I can't make an accurate decision without the above information....

    Without the above I cannot even begin to consider a push so this is a flat call, if you lose the pot you still have room to play with 5k at those blind levels.

    I am also very suspicious of this min raise, what hands has he done this with previously?

    I think coming back over the top is a bad idea, you will only be called if you are beaten.


  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 5,083 ✭✭✭RoundTower


    Shortstack wrote:
    LAG player from Galway (who has 15k and just lost 3k with 33 the previous hand) raises to 300 from the cut off.

    If this is all you know about him I think you have to just call. You can't expect him to pay you off with enough one pair hands for it to be profitable to go all in.


  • Closed Accounts Posts: 1,467 ✭✭✭Norwich Fan Rob


    if he is that aggressive a player, and he raised pre flop, his flat calls would signal a set on the flop to me...........and his river bet really looks like a value bet, its crying out to be called.


  • Closed Accounts Posts: 2,506 ✭✭✭Shortstack


    Samba wrote:
    O.k,

    Two reasons for betting the 1k, do you have a 3? Or induce a bluff at the pot which you know the villain will make

    Has this player been involved in many pots? what's his termperment like after the 33 hand? Has he been caught bluffing?

    I can't make an accurate decision without the above information....

    Without the above I cannot even begin to consider a push so this is a flat call, if you lose the pot you still have room to play with 5k at those blind levels.

    I am also very suspicious of this min raise, what hands has he done this with previously?

    I think coming back over the top is a bad idea, you will only be called if you are beaten.

    He has played a lot of pots. Shown down a mixture of hands. he was caught bluffing at a pot with the three's on the river. However he checked a set of Kings on the river also on a non dangerous board. I have played against him before and his pre-flop raising range is 7 2o to AA. I doubt he is that bothered about being caught bluffing. he is loose enough that he is in 4/9 pots. I don't have a 3, my hand is 55.


  • Closed Accounts Posts: 5,124 ✭✭✭NickyOD


    I would probably have check raised the turn rather than leading again. This sort of player should be easy to check raise if you feign weakness when the ace lands. The way it was played though I'd prefer to check call the river but when you bet and get raised to 3000 I think you are beaten by KK.


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  • Closed Accounts Posts: 1,467 ✭✭✭Norwich Fan Rob


    the only hand he is calling a reraise with (maybe) that you are beating is AK


  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 3,337 ✭✭✭Wombatman


    From what's been said this guy could have 22,x3,KK,AA,Ax, anything or nothing. I'm not sure if you had enough info. to risk all your stack or by the same token fold. Call for me. You beat you still in the tourney. You ahead you take down a nice pot.

    Call.


  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 2,328 ✭✭✭hotspur


    Folding is certainly not an option, with so much poker left to play and the blinds that size the most accurate play against most opponents is probably a flat call as they would play the 3 hands that beat you (AA, KK, and A3) exactly as he played it, 33 is a remote possiblilty due to the weak turn bet, only AK and 22 have any good chance of an all in being called by a good player, BUT given your assessment of him I would have to push and consider myself very unlucky if the guy had the goods for once.


  • Closed Accounts Posts: 421 ✭✭StraddleFor6


    There's no way in hell you can push here just because he's a bad player. Flat call is the only option. Poor players flop top set just as much as good players.


  • Closed Accounts Posts: 5,124 ✭✭✭NickyOD


    I agree. Pushing is beyond silly. It's unlikely he has played AK this way and its the only hand he could call a push with that you beat.He certainly doesn't have 33 this time either. The way way he has played it reaks of KK but folding a set on the river is very dificult against this player.


  • Closed Accounts Posts: 157 ✭✭Bozzer


    NickyOD wrote:
    It's unlikely he has played AK this way and its the only hand he could call a push with that you beat.

    He could have 22 but I agree that pushing is terrible. It's basically a bluff that is highly unlikely to fold out a better hand. I call here getting 7-2.


  • Closed Accounts Posts: 4,013 ✭✭✭kincsem


    He has 33 again?

    He could have 44 for trips. I think he has a set of 4s.
    The most you can do is call. I would consider folding.

    My second guess is he does not fear a straight because he has it and he can not believe you have 36. He knows you have a hand and 3000 is the most he can put in and get a call. Whatever he has he only needs one 3 to beat you.

    My guesses in order.

    1. A set of 4s
    2. A straight. He has pocket 3s.


  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 2,237 ✭✭✭POKERKING


    flat call for me too ....well what he have..??


  • Closed Accounts Posts: 2,506 ✭✭✭Shortstack


    I flat called. I was 75% sure I was ahead and it was hard not to push but that 25% uncertainty saved the rest of my chips. Against a different player I may have folded but he is the type of player who would take AK all the way on this flop. In the end he turned over KK. This was the first time I had been victim of set over set in a live situation. Even more surreal was the last time he flopped a set of Kings I had also seen the flop with 55.

    The reason I posted this hand was that on the day most people I had mentioned the hand too were surprised I had not gone broke.


  • Closed Accounts Posts: 5,124 ✭✭✭NickyOD


    Shortstack wrote:
    I flat called. I was 75% sure I was ahead and it was hard not to push but that 25% uncertainty saved the rest of my chips. Against a different player I may have folded but he is the type of player who would take AK all the way on this flop. In the end he turned over KK. This was the first time I had been victim of set over set in a live situation. Even more surreal was the last time he flopped a set of Kings I had also seen the flop with 55.

    The reason I posted this hand was that on the day most people I had mentioned the hand too were surprised I had not gone broke.

    Hard luck. When you think back on the hand though, he really has to be incredibly stupid to raise this river with a hand you beat. Call, Call, Raise by a bad player is almost always a flopped set on a board that offered no obvious draw. I know its dificult to fold the set against this player but I think you are behind in this situation too often for the call to be worthwhile. The way I play this hand: I check the turn and if he bets I raise and very possibly lose my ass when he pushes.


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  • Closed Accounts Posts: 1,679 ✭✭✭Daithio


    I'd never fold the river here, but I wouldn't go all in either just in case of the 3. I know it's unlikely but you never know with some of those muppets. Well done for not going broke Mike, the straight on board saved your ass.


  • Closed Accounts Posts: 2,506 ✭✭✭Shortstack


    Nicky, i dont think it is a -ev call. That is the first time I have ever I have had set over set against me. It is something like 64:1 that two players with pocket pairs flop a set. Especially against that type of player. The amount of times I have moved in a similar position and doubled up is huge. I just had a feeling on this one that I was beat but it was not strong enough for me to fold.

    Dave, i was not worried about the straight. It was just a feeling that I was beat. The only hands I expected him to have that beat me were AA & KK.

    I think this is a case where had I been playing for a few more years I may have picked up on my feelings and folded.


  • Closed Accounts Posts: 1,679 ✭✭✭Daithio


    Maybe Mike, it's a big enough pot to fold though for only 2k. Against an excellent player it's conceivable, but against a random unknown in one of Fintan's tourneys it's a pretty tough fold. I'm not really known for huge laydowns though, and I don't know of anyone who has folded a set under set without there being a straight or flush out there. In this case the straight was there but it's irrelevant because you said you were certain he didn't have it. I just think it's extremely bad luck and you did well not to go broke with it. Set under set is just one of those circumstances in hold em which you can't help but go broke with.


  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 5,083 ✭✭✭RoundTower


    Daithio wrote:
    Maybe Mike, it's a big enough pot to fold though for only 2k. Against an excellent player it's conceivable, but against a random unknown in one of Fintan's tourneys it's a pretty tough fold. I'm not really known for huge laydowns though, and I don't know of anyone who has folded a set under set without there being a straight or flush out there. In this case the straight was there but it's irrelevant because you said you were certain he didn't have it. I just think it's extremely bad luck and you did well not to go broke with it. Set under set is just one of those circumstances in hold em which you can't help but go broke with.

    I wouldn't consider folding against anyone, an excellent player could be bluffing you here. The 2 on the river would have saved me here, I would probably be prepared to get it all in if the board paired or a blank came.

    Dave you should read my thread a long way down about being checkraised. I fold middle set on a K52 flop with no reads, for one more raise. It's funny just how wrong I was, I think it might be the single worst fold I've ever made.


  • Closed Accounts Posts: 1,679 ✭✭✭Daithio


    That's pretty bad alright:D . You heading into the Emporium tonight Dave?


  • Closed Accounts Posts: 5,124 ✭✭✭NickyOD


    Come on guys. I can't believe you all think folding is bad here. Given the action and the oponent its a very transparent floppped set. You have shown a lot of strength on 3 streets and now he decides to raise you! It's clear he has flopped a monster. We all know this is exactly how bad players try to trap with flopped sets so why still pay them off when they've given you all the info you need?


  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 5,083 ✭✭✭RoundTower


    No I'll probably be in the Fitz playing cash games later on though.

    Just about something Mike said that I missed:
    Shortstack wrote:
    Dave, i was not worried about the straight. It was just a feeling that I was beat. The only hands I expected him to have that beat me were AA & KK.

    It's not just that you don't expect him to have a straight. But the four to a straight on the board will make him play more cautiously and more likely to fold something like AK, so there is no upside to raising.


  • Closed Accounts Posts: 2,506 ✭✭✭Shortstack


    NickyOD wrote:
    It's clear he has flopped a monster.

    People's definition of a monster vary. Some players would think K5 was a monster on this flop. In fact I know he did not read me for a set so he could think any two pair is worth raising on the river.


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