folding JJ preflop...

ditpoker

i have folded JJ preflop twice that i can remember, both times there have been people at my table that i know who have questioned (at length) my actions, below is a rough account of both of them, any thoughts would be welcome.

the fitz, 30e freeze out
blinds are 200/400, i get dealt JJ in early position and make it 1500, (i have about 6500) its folded around to the button (who has about 5000) who raises all in, its folded back around to me... my thinking is this guy hasn't played a hand in ages, one of those players who only plays QUALITY hands, so after much thought i fold, putting him on AA KK or QQ, at worst he has AK and its a race... so i fold and he turns over AQ, obviosuly we dont see a flop and i'm now down to 5k... had i called and won the hand i'd have been chip leader at my table at least, had i called and lost i'm pretty much out.

3 handed college game
down to last 3, blinds 150/300 everyone on about 6k, im in SB and i make it 1k with JJ, instantly the BB who i consider to be a reasonably tight player makes it 3k, and i do mean instantly! so im thinking he may have been planning this move regardless of what i did and was on a steal, but i think i convinced myself that he's got an over pair and that folding left me on 5k and in no worse shape. equally i figure there's no point in calling cos reggardless of the flop i figure this hand is costing me all my chips if i get involved. so i reluctantly fold my JJ and he shows, off all things, AJ!! fortunately as it turned out, we did the flop that came A,A,10 with no help on the turn oir river so i saved myself alot, but is it the right fold preflop?

shoutman

I dont like JJ, I think it is a very hard hand to play.

I think that if you're confident you can outplay your opponents in both these scenarios then you are right to fold.

But I think in the second scenario, being three handed it is quite possible that your opponent is willing to stick it all in the middle with a lower pocket pair. Presuming he fancies a gamble I suppose.

Sparky1808

In the first situation ...I probably would have made the fold, going on your notes on this player, being a tight and solid player who only plays when he's got the goods, so you knew you were 50:50 at worst, if not dominated to an over pair.

In the second instance I would of re-raised all in over the top of his re-raise immediately, as to me it didn't seem like QQ, KK, AA, it seemed more like 10's and below or AK at best (especially with it only being 3 handed, he is prepared to push with this range of hands), in the end it was AJ ...and you made the right fold (techinically) after him hitting trips on the flop.

...but I rate JJ as one of the hardest hands to play ...it can run you into so much trouble

ianmc38

For me, if you're a slight favourite, ie AK or AQ then it depends on your position in the tournament. How many players left, average stack, number of people getting paid etc. If its say on the bubble, for me its an instant fold...

Edit: Just saw situation 2 is 3 handed. I'm pushing here 90% of the time

ditpoker

shoutman,
pretty sure you were at the table for the 30e in the fitz when i folded JJ, or u have just been moved. lloyd was baffled by my fold.

as steve dannenman says in his 'poker notes' that got him to 2nd in the WSOP "its only a small mistake to fold"

roryc

sitution 1 is an easy fold.

situation 2 I would call almost every time. Regardless of the way the hand played out, in a 3 handed game you will be ahead here most of the time. Why would he raise over the top unless he had an inferior hand?

Jacks can be a tough hand to laydown preflop, but you have to realise that they aren't THAT good. Any Q, K or Ace on the flop are scare cards. A tougher hand to lay down preflop is queens. i've only done this a few times and it really is a difficult fold.

fuzzbox

Blinds at 200/400, your bet at 1500, his push at 5000.
Total pot = 7100. Amount to call 3500.

equity (%) win (%) tie (%)
Hand 1: 36.1901 % 35.98% 00.21% { JJ }
Hand 2: 63.8099 % 63.60% 00.21% { QQ+, AKs, AKo }


Its a call vs QQ+ or AK (although its close)

Now add some more reasonable stuff like ...
equity (%) win (%) tie (%)
Hand 1: 50.1836 % 49.22% 00.96% { JJ }
Hand 2: 49.8164 % 48.85% 00.96% { 99+, AQs+, AQo+ }


And you beat him to the pot.
Stacks are too small to be folding JJ in my opinion, as he can make this move with a lot more than QQ+ and AK.

roryc

fuzzbox wrote:

Its a call vs QQ

Surely this is a mistake? You would call holding JJ vs QQ?

Norwich Fan Rob

3 handed Jacks is a monster, 2nd one in an instant all in from me over the top.

1st one, i had a similar situation in the 270 game in the fitz about 4 months ago, in around level 3, i was pretty much on starting chips of 5k, utg made in 900, utg+1 called, (had them both on AQ/AK ish, so i called, wanted to see a flop), then late pos who havent done much so far, moves in and has me covered, 1st 2 fold, i dwell for a while and fold showing Jacks, the table are shocked, "how can u fold that etc", raiser shows AKs, (other folders both said they had AJ!!!!). I still think i was right to fold, no need to race here when imo i am at best 50/50, it was still 10 handed and raiser had to expect 1 call with the action that had taken place. Ended up bubbling in that event, so who knows, but since then ive met a few guys from that table and they always comment on how tight i am.
(one guy i met last weekend and he said, i really need to loosen up if i want to cash in one of those things)
I would suggest my record in the fitz speaks for itself in the 9 times i have played their:

Friday scalps 10th of 75 (bubble)
270 game July out just after the break
Friday scalps 4th
Friday scalps 8th
270 game Aug, almost first out
Monday 100 game 3rd
270 game Sept 19th (bubble)
500 game Dec 3rd out of 97
270 game Dec 13th out of 119

roryc

you've only played the fitz 9 times?

4 cashes out of nine is not bad. Fair play on 3rd in the 500, how much did you bag for that?

fuzzbox

roryc wrote:

Surely this is a mistake? You would call holding JJ vs QQ?

Its a call Vs QQ+ or AK

QQ+ means QQ/KK/AA

If villain can only have QQ or KK or AA or AK, you should still call with JJ because you are getting more than 2:1 pot odds and you are a 3:2 underdog.

roryc

oh right, COULD have. I get you now

ianmc38

fuzzbox wrote:

Its a call Vs QQ+ or AK

QQ+ means QQ/KK/AA

If villain can only have QQ or KK or AA or AK, you should still call with JJ because you are getting more than 2:1 pot odds and you are a 3:2 underdog.

You're a 3:2 underdog with JJ vs QQ/KK/AA?

Can you please explain what hat you pulled those figures out of?

roryc

Norwich Fan Rob wrote:

Friday scalps 10th of 75 (bubble)
270 game July out just after the break
Friday scalps 4th
Friday scalps 8th
270 game Aug, almost first out
Monday 100 game 3rd
270 game Sept 19th (bubble)
500 game Dec 3rd out of 97
270 game Dec 13th out of 119

I don't know why this was posted but it looks fun!


My record in the BIG Fitz games (€270+) is;

Fitz €270 19th (bubble in my first big tourney.... goddammit)
Fitz €270 12th
Fitz €270 1st (split)
Fitz PPP €385 16th
Fitz WSOP Qualifier 13th (Mark McMahon won it. Legend )
Fitz €270 8th
Fitz €270 9th
Fitz €270 35th (Joe O'Neill tens cracked my Jacks... biatch!)
Fitz €270 13th

I really like the big Fitz games. I've cashed in 6/9 and I've made about €8000... and I've never paid into ANY of them!

God Bless Freerolls!

fuzzbox

ianmc38 wrote:

You're a 3:2 underdog with JJ vs QQ/KK/AA?

Can you please explain what hat you pulled those figures out of?

Ok.

You have missed the inclusion of AK in that list.

You dont know what villain has, so this decision is before seeing villains hand. If you know that villain is supertight and will only push his chips in with either QQ, KK, AA OR AK, then you should still call 3500 to win 7100, as against this range of possible holdings you are only a 3:2 underdog.

In the long run, you will win money by making this call. Sure, sometimes he turns over AA and wins, other times he turns over AK and wins, and then there are times that he turns over KK and you hit a J, and times that he turns over AK and you win.

Note that this only occurs because the pot is laying you 2:1. If you had made it 1500 and he had made it 10k all-in and you had to call 8500 to win 12100, then you should fold.

Norwich Fan Rob

in a cash game maybe, but for all your chips when u still have 5k behind and only 1.5k in, i think its a pass.......


yes rory, only played the fitz 9 times, mainly play online.

got 6k in the 500 event, was a 4 way split 15k, 8350, and 2 x 6k.

thelifeofryan

not too sure about your maths there fuzz. I make it 30% (ie 2.33-1) chance of winning if the villan is equally likely to be holding each of the four hands suggested.

fuzzbox

thelifeofryan wrote:

not too sure about your maths there fuzz. I make it 30% (ie 2.33-1) chance of winning if the villan is equally likely to be holding each of the four hands suggested.

This is not correct.

There are 6 possible combinations of AA (h+d, h+s, h+c, d+s, d+c, s+c)
6 of KK
6 of QQ
But 16 ways to make AK

So its statistically more likely for him to have AK, which is quite important.

fuzzbox

Norwich Fan Rob wrote:

in a cash game maybe, but for all your chips when u still have 5k behind and only 1.5k in, i think its a pass.......

ONLY 1.5k ?

You have just put 20% of your stack in, and now you are prepared to let it go in a big pot. Yuck.

Gholimoli

ditpoker wrote:

i have folded JJ preflop twice that i can remember, both times there have been people at my table that i know who have questioned (at length) my actions, below is a rough account of both of them, any thoughts would be welcome.

the fitz, 30e freeze out
blinds are 200/400, i get dealt JJ in early position and make it 1500, (i have about 6500) its folded around to the button (who has about 5000) who raises all in, its folded back around to me... my thinking is this guy hasn't played a hand in ages, one of those players who only plays QUALITY hands, so after much thought i fold, putting him on AA KK or QQ, at worst he has AK and its a race... so i fold and he turns over AQ, obviosuly we dont see a flop and i'm now down to 5k... had i called and won the hand i'd have been chip leader at my table at least, had i called and lost i'm pretty much out.

3 handed college game
down to last 3, blinds 150/300 everyone on about 6k, im in SB and i make it 1k with JJ, instantly the BB who i consider to be a reasonably tight player makes it 3k, and i do mean instantly! so im thinking he may have been planning this move regardless of what i did and was on a steal, but i think i convinced myself that he's got an over pair and that folding left me on 5k and in no worse shape. equally i figure there's no point in calling cos reggardless of the flop i figure this hand is costing me all my chips if i get involved. so i reluctantly fold my JJ and he shows, off all things, AJ!! fortunately as it turned out, we did the flop that came A,A,10 with no help on the turn oir river so i saved myself alot, but is it the right fold preflop?

Hand one:
how early is early position?
i am just beggining to understand just how much information can be gained from the size of the raise.
you read all these books and they tell you to mix it up and look for betting patterns bla bla ...but its onyl recently that im begging to understand this and actually apply it to my advantage.
your raising almost 25% of your stack with a raise from an EP?
do you have any future plans for this hand at all?like for example what if some one reraise you with a min raise?what if they put you all in ?
are you going to call or fold?if you are going to fold your JJ to a reraise ,are you still going to risk 25% of your stack from EP with many players left behind you which means a high probability that some one could reraise.
i much prefer a smaller raise from the EP on these kind of hand and a bigger raise from LP.
also the amount of information your giving away with your hand is not what you have ,i mean no one can put you on JJ because you made it 1500.its what hands they can exclude from your range and that is alot of info.
to give an example, say you made it 2000 to begin with here,what that raise says,is that you dont have AA or KK cuz if you did you would want to encourage action and you dont do that with a big raise.so if some one was seating there with AK or even AQ ,they would think:
well he dosent have AA or KK
any other PP my hand is 50/50 ,
there is a chance i have him dominated,
now that combined with the FE they get if they put you all in makes this a ++EV play i think.

Hand 2:
easy push

RoundTower

fuzzbox wrote:

Ok.

You have missed the inclusion of AK in that list.

You dont know what villain has, so this decision is before seeing villains hand. If you know that villain is supertight and will only push his chips in with either QQ, KK, AA OR AK, then you should still call 3500 to win 7100, as against this range of possible holdings you are only a 3:2 underdog.

This is true even if you have 22 instead of JJ. Of course you think you'll look like an idiot if you call off all your chips with 22, but you should learn not to fold once you're getting a good price from the pot (less than a single pot-sized raise all in).

kpnuts

Agree 100% with Rob's analysis of both situations here ...

(a) given the read you have on the button player, AQ is the VERY WORST hand he's gonna turn over here and I don't want a coin flip for all my chips at this stage.

(b) i'm all-in every time, regardless of how fast our villain has reraised, I have the 4th best starting hand and I ain't giving it up 3-handed. if villain turns over a better starting hand or outdraws me, GL to him!

Trippie

I played the 1000 event in citywest and the first two decent hands i picked up were pocket J's and i had to fold both of them.

im in seat two with two tight players to my left by the way


Case A)the blinds were 25/50 at this stage and im in dreamland i look down and see pocket J's and raise to 300(table's standard raise at the moment) only to be told that it has been made 200 by the guy UTG in seat 10. so string bet and all so its just a call. Then the guy next to me raises to 800 he hasnt played since it started. the guy UTG raises to 1600 and i fold.

Case Blinds 50/100 Guy in seat 9 raises to 400(he's been very loose so far) i look down and i have pocket J's again before i can say raise the guy to the left of me says "1000" and the guy beside him quickly calls. i fold my hand happily and original raiser folds. Pocket K's win the hand.

i think i was right in both situations so it it isnt that bad jeff

RoundTower

Trippie wrote:

I played the 1000 event in citywest and the first two decent hands i picked up were pocket J's and i had to fold both of them.

im in seat two with two tight players to my left by the way


Case A)the blinds were 25/50 at this stage and im in dreamland i look down and see pocket J's and raise to 300(table's standard raise at the moment) only to be told that it has been made 200 by the guy UTG in seat 10. so string bet and all so its just a call. Then the guy next to me raises to 800 he hasnt played since it started. the guy UTG raises to 1600 and i fold.

Case Blinds 50/100 Guy in seat 9 raises to 400(he's been very loose so far) i look down and i have pocket J's again before i can say raise the guy to the left of me says "1000" and the guy beside him quickly calls. i fold my hand happily and original raiser folds. Pocket K's win the hand.

i think i was right in both situations so it it isnt that bad jeff

It was your birthday that day, right? I think you have the two hands mixed up but you played both of them right (apart from not paying attention to the previous action). In the first hand, where you tried to make it 300, it was me on your left. I made it 1000 to go and UTG unfortunately folded, you folded face up. I had AA.

I don't remember the second hand now, but I did at the time. Again I think you have the action mixed up a little bit, I would have remembered if I'd reraised out of turn. UTG was loose in general (I think he is from somewhere in the midlands and has lots of money and has occasionally played in the Fitz, but I couldn't place him properly at the time) but he hadn't been particularly loose raising in early position. The only time I noticed him raise from UTG he threw the chips in looking frustrated scattering 4 100 chips half way across the table, this meant a good hand, so reraising with jacks would have been marginal there for me, certainly if the old guy in seat 1 (also loose and aggressive but probably would need a hand here) reraised you would be right to fold.

I remember the third time you had JJ, I think it was also in the second level, you raised from UTG+2 I think to 400, everyone folded and you showed them and said you were delighted to get so much respect (you'd been a rock). I think showing JJ is bad here, I think I understand why you did it but it is still wrong. It was at that point you commented you had had them twice before, and I knew when the second one had to be.

Trippie

Ye you did raise me out of turn. i remember thinking to myself that the raise had made my mind up for me.

You got the third time i had J's wrong,it was when i filled the back door spade flush against the old guy to my right when the AK spades was on the flop.

That other time i commented about having respect was when i had K10 o/s.

I was a rock only because i had absolutely no cards what-so-ever

ditpoker

Gholimoli wrote:

Hand one:
how early is early position?
i am just beggining to understand just how much information can be gained from the size of the raise.
you read all these books and they tell you to mix it up and look for betting patterns bla bla ...but its onyl recently that im begging to understand this and actually apply it to my advantage.
your raising almost 25% of your stack with a raise from an EP?
do you have any future plans for this hand at all?like for example what if some one reraise you with a min raise?what if they put you all in ?
are you going to call or fold?if you are going to fold your JJ to a reraise ,are you still going to risk 25% of your stack from EP with many players left behind you which means a high probability that some one could reraise.
i much prefer a smaller raise from the EP on these kind of hand and a bigger raise from LP.
also the amount of information your giving away with your hand is not what you have ,i mean no one can put you on JJ because you made it 1500.its what hands they can exclude from your range and that is alot of info.
to give an example, say you made it 2000 to begin with here,what that raise says,is that you dont have AA or KK cuz if you did you would want to encourage action and you dont do that with a big raise.so if some one was seating there with AK or even AQ ,they would think:
well he dosent have AA or KK
any other PP my hand is 50/50 ,
there is a chance i have him dominated,
now that combined with the FE they get if they put you all in makes this a ++EV play i think.

Hand 2:
easy push

the first hand was a long a few months back and i have improved a fair bit since then (i think!).... by early position i mean first to act in 7 handed table. i know what you're talking about with what does my bet of 1500 say, and how much am i willing to commit, being honest then i played by the "its a buried pair so make a raise with it" policy.. i think if i played it again i'd make it maybe 2BB's and I think as a result he may have just min raised me rather than pushing. i think i've learnt a fair bit since then having played ALOT of poker. i know i still need to improve tho before i buy into the world series.... BUT IT WILL HAPPEN!!!!

Wallko

Thought i would reply to this one coz i folded jj preflop in the SE 75$ double chance on wednesday,

Stormin Norman sat down and of course immediately started firing out the raises!!

he made it 400 from early position wit blinds of 50/100, i flat called with jj as i had position and Normans range could be quite large,

player behind then moves all in for 2000, my friend (another boards regular) had pointed out to be beforehand that he was a good, solid player who generally doesnt make too many moves without the goods

Anyway norman folded and i thought for a while and then let it go,
He turned over kk

fuzzbox

Wallko wrote:

Thought i would reply to this one coz i folded jj preflop in the SE 75$ double chance on wednesday,

Stormin Norman sat down and of course immediately started firing out the raises!!

he made it 400 from early position wit blinds of 50/100, i flat called with jj as i had position and Normans range could be quite large,

player behind then moves all in for 2000, my friend (another boards regular) had pointed out to be beforehand that he was a good, solid player who generally doesnt make too many moves without the goods

Anyway norman folded and i thought for a while and then let it go,
He turned over kk

Blinds 150, norman 400, you 400, villain 2000. Total pot 3350. 1600 to call.

You should have called. (again solid player can easily make this move ... considering that Norman raised, and a guy called, so its a great time to squeeze). If he has QQ+ or AK then you are 3:2 and you are getting 2:1 pot odds. More likely his range is TT+/AK/AQ. And you are 50/50, and getting 2:1 pot odds.

I would also have reraised Norman, I dont want to see a flop with JJ too often, when chips are not that deep.

Culchie

With JJ against Norman I would have stuck my stack in.

Sometimes he will be ahead, most times he is behind, and behind very badly.

Wallko

yeah i suppose i certainly should have reraised Norman but i was still in very early position and i hate getting too involved with jj

i have been knocked out of so many tournaments with jj that perhaps i have a mental block to playing them agressively, the way you should play them

as far as callin the 2nd guy the only hands he had even played previously were ak twice and qq

as far as i was concerned his range was jj,qq,kk,aa,ak, i dont even think he would play aq this agressively

Culchie

Wallko wrote:

yeah i suppose i certainly should have reraised Norman but i was still in very early position and i hate getting too involved with jj

I'm only talking about this situation you were in with Norman, not in general.

After his raise, if you stick your stack in the middle, it takes position out of the equation.

phantom_lord

EDIT moved...

RoundTower

phantom_lord wrote:

I remember a good while ago I was playing in college and got dealt poket jacks, normally I play really tight and I hadn't played in a good few hands so I thought I'd mix up my play a bit and play them aggressive. I raised about 200 preflop (I can't remember exact figures, stacks were average 2000) and 5 people called, the flop was 3,6,10, which I didn't think would help anyone, I raised 500, two guys called but slowly, next card was a k. Trying to win it there and then and act like i had ak,aa, or kk I pushed. I got called by one guy. With k9. What was he calling me all the way along with K9 for.........

In another tournament I got pocket qs within about 5hands of each other...both times I got outdrawn...

You think that's bad I just got FOUR TWOS and got outdrawn, the lucky so and so called me before the flop with NOTHING and RAISED me after the flop and BLUFFED me and I had to lay them down, you can find the full story in the thread at the top of the poker forum, perhaps your post would do well there too.

willis

Culchie wrote:

After his raise, if you stick your stack in the middle, it takes position out of the equation.

Terrible advice imo,why bet so much to win so little... sticking in your stack when you have no idea what he has, youve plenty of players behind you and Norman will fold most hands you beat so whats the point in the all-in?do you expect to be called by a hand your beating?at the very least he will only call with a 50-50 shot, and if i wanted to gamble id play roulette. the call here is fine imo

Culchie

willis wrote:

Terrible advice imo,why bet so much to win so little... sticking in your stack when you have no idea what he has, youve plenty of players behind you and Norman will fold most hands you beat so whats the point in the all-in?do you expect to be called by a hand your beating?at the very least he will only call with a 50-50 shot, and if i wanted to gamble id play roulette. the call here is fine imo

He will only call with a 50/50 shot? .... you can't be serious?

Player X will call with anything, absolutely anything.

As I stated before my move is based on Player X in the stated circumstances, every day of the week I would stick my stack in with JJ against him.

The odd time I'll be behind, sometimes it will be 50/50, but most of the time he will be terribly behind.

Bp!

fuzzbox wrote:

This is not correct.

There are 6 possible combinations of AA (h+d, h+s, h+c, d+s, d+c, s+c)
6 of KK
6 of QQ
But 16 ways to make AK

So its statistically more likely for him to have AK, which is quite important.

Your only 18% fav to crack an overpair with an underpair, fairly basic stuff fuzz

Bp!

Gholimoli wrote:

say you made it 2000 to begin with here,what that raise says,is that you dont have AA or KK cuz if you did you would want to encourage action and you dont do that with a big raise.so if some one was seating there with AK or even AQ ,they would think:
well he dosent have AA or KK

I wish this was always true but you do come across players who riase 9 x BB etc from EP with AA, very hard to put them on hands (lol but they do tend to go bust quite early!!)

fuzzbox

Bp! wrote:

Your only 18% fav to crack an overpair with an underpair, fairly basic stuff fuzz

Whats your point?

The point is that he has either an overpair or AK.
Against that range of possibilities you are 3:2 and should call.

DapperGent

Bp! wrote:

Your only 18% fav to crack an overpair with an underpair, fairly basic stuff fuzz

You make your decisions based on a range on hands. Given that AK is in the range and that it's the most common card combination of that range and that JJ is a slight favourite over it changes things a little.

willis

Culchie wrote:

He will only call with a 50/50 shot? .... you can't be serious?

Player X will call with anything, absolutely anything.

So why did he fold to the reraise all-in if hes such a loose crazy player?

Culchie

willis wrote:

So why did he fold to the reraise all-in if hes such a loose crazy player?

I don't know I wasn't there, maybe the re-raiser was a complete rock. It was a third player re-raise as well, so maybe he took the hint.

I think you are looking at this solely from the cards point of view, I'm factoring in the X player factor. I've seen on him on many many occassions call All-Ins with 'muck', very very rarely with anything better than JJ.

I never said he was a crazy player, he's a bloody good player when he has a stack.

willis

yes but u suggest the push all-in...why?why not play a flop with him?why risk all your stack just to win the raise...especially with people behind. you have position on norman,call behind and play a flop is what id do but no right answer,each to there own

Culchie

willis wrote:

yes but u suggest the push all-in...why?why not play a flop with him?why risk all your stack just to win the raise...especially with people behind. you have position on norman,call behind and play a flop is what id do but no right answer,each to there own

There's not many people that can put Norman on a hand, and I'm certainly not one of them.

I'm happy winning the blinds and a raise with JJ.

As you say each to their own, JJ is too vunerable a hand (for me) to be trying to play too much poker with.