What's the range here?

Shortstack

$5/$10 NL 10 handed.
I am in the big blind with 5 7o, 6 limpers including UTG and small blind.

Flop 3c 5c 7h

I bet out $40 into a $70 pot and I am minimum raised by UTG. I call the $40 more and the turn is a 10 non club. I check he bets $160.

What is his hand here judging by his actions? We both started with $750 in chips.

Ste05

The Royal Arlo in clubs??

Sparky1808

I would put him on a nut flush draw or a wired pair (AKc) or (JJ - AA).

I would double raise him back to make it $480 in total ...to see what his next actions are. If he has a set ...your very unlucky.

Doctor Fell

I would guess over pair to the flop, or a set. If ur really unlucky set of tens??

AmarilloFats

Looks like a set.
Does he limp with big pairs UTG and look to reraise pre flop!!??
Surely he would not play AA,KK like this post flop. Building a pot against an unknown hand in the blinds!
And he does not have bottom 2 or 64 for the straight....!!
So I can't see what you beat here.

Norwich Fan Rob

JJ-AA imo, hes betting big cause he has u on a draw.
His raise on the flop may have been for info, to see if u had 7x, or a draw, or better, and u showed weakness on the turn, i woulda put u on a str8 draw, flush draw or pair and bet the turn with a big pair.
Especially if hes the type of player to limp big pairs from ep hoping for a re raise.
No reason to believe he has clubs.
Unlucky if he has 33 or TT.

Doctor Fell

AmarilloFats wrote:

Does he limp with big pairs UTG and look to reraise pre flop!!??
Surely he would not play AA,KK like this post flop. Building a pot against an unknown hand in the blinds!

Well he only min raised the flop - could easily be a tester to see where he stands with his over pair, so AA KK definitely possible I think.
Bet it's a set of 10's!!:D

Gholimoli

Shortstack wrote:

$5/$10 NL 10 handed.
I am in the big blind with 5 7o, 6 limpers including UTG and small blind.

Flop 3c 5c 7h

I bet out $40 into a $70 pot and I am minimum raised by UTG. I call the $40 more and the turn is a 10 non club. I check he bets $160.

What is his hand here judging by his actions? We both started with $750 in chips.

Its difficult to say with out any read on UTG.
However the turn bet looks like a made hand and not a flush str draw.if he was on any sort of draw, he would have gladly taking the free card after your check.
Your lead on the flop in to so many opponents screams that you beat a single pair, the minraise on his part could be from a made set of 3s that his trying to protect against a flush/str draw.a set of 5 or 7 is very unlikely seen as you hold one of each.
Seen as your villain is UTG there is however a much bigger possibility that his over playing AA or KK and he cant let them go .i would fold if the 160 raise came from any other position other than UTG cause that would eliminate the AA KK limp.

Doctor Fell

Sorry, just had another thought - he's got A10c, and u get rivered by an A or a 10???

ianmc38

I'd put him on 88+. Limp preflop could be hoping for a raise with QQ, KK or AA. May have raised with 88 - JJ. I think 46 is ruled out immediately as unless he's a madman i don't think any decent player will limp with 46 from utg. Therefore I think, the nut flush draw is his most likely holding, perhaps AT of clubs, therefore betting his draw on the flop and his top pair on the turn(as well as sesning weakness from your check). If he has a set well it's unlucky for you, as you've hit a nightmare flop if thats the case.

For me though, looks like the nut flush draw with top pair on the turn...

Waylander

His range could be anything with 6 limpers preflop, although as he was UTG you could probably rule out the straight. I think from his play he has a set, and judging from min reraise on flop and aggressive raise on turn I think he has a set of 10's and wants to chase off a flush draw.

AmarilloFats

I do see players play over pairs OOP in unraised pots, On a board like this, at the 1/2NL levels...You want them at your table.

Bozzer

When he min-raises the flop his likely hands are o/pairs to the flop trying to get information for cheap or a flush draw (maybe 56/67 depending how loose he is) looking for turn to be checked through.
I wouldn’t be very worried about a set. Obviously card combinations wise there’s only 1 combo of 55 & 77 with the 6 combos of 33. But more importantly, villain has only min-raised in a 7-way pot on a draw heavy board. Multiway pots(esp. with draws out) cause your opponents to play more in line with their hands and so I would expect a bigger raise in general from a set here.

When he bets the turn his most likely range is 88-AA with more weighting to 88-JJ. He probably puts you on a draw given how you’ve played so far and is betting to charge you.
It’s possible he has a set but not too likely imo.
Small possibility he decided to bet a flush draw here, maybe trying to knock you off a higher flush draw, but in general when they min-raise flop with a draw, they take the free card on the turn.

If I were playing this hand I would pot the flop,call a raise and push turn. Might even push to a raise on the flop depending on who raised,size of raise and my image.
Given flop action in the hand I would lead turn aswell. Dangerous board to give free card on. Gives him a chance to overplay o/pair.

Shortstack

I discarded a made straight, that was the easy. The flop bet was for info. When he only minimum raised I prseumed he was also looking for information and put him on an overpair 88-AA. I ruled out a set as I would have thought his raise to be bigger here as I could easily have a made straight or even be betting an opened ended straight and flush draw. It was his flop play which cost me my chips. I checked because I wanted him to bet as I thought he would. I pushed after his turn bet and lost my stack to his 55

I'm not sure that I would have saved any chips if I had bet the turn because I was so (wrongly) sure that his flop min raise was not a set I would have probably called had I bet and he had pushed. The only way he might have folded (and it is a big might) is if I had pushed on the flop after his min raise.

I am glad that others here came to the same conclusion as me but it just goes to show from the responses to this thread that everybody interprets actions differently. Luckily I was still up for the night after this loss

Lafortezza

Unlucky Mike, I'm usually a bit more suspicious of a min raise when there's limpers left to act after the min-raiser. His play indicates that he has a very strong hand and isn't too bother about pricing in those players to act after him.

Bozzer

Shortstack wrote:

I ruled out a set as I would have thought his raise to be bigger here as I could easily have a made straight or even be betting an opened ended straight and flush draw. It was his flop play which cost me my chips.

His flop raise sucked balls. He's lucky somebody wasn't in there to draw out on him.

AmarilloFats

Unlucky Shortstack.
Do u think He would call your push on turn with JJ-AA?
Do you think it would be bad play for him to get stacked here with JJ-AA??

Unless I have played with villain before and have a specific read on him I cannot put him on a hand that you beat here...
IMHO If villain turned over 88,99, JJ-AA ..awful play.
ATc maybe AKc ..Still don't think an average/good villain is gonna show you these...

Would anyone here have folded a set of 3's????

Doctor Fell

Unlucky, but I have to say I would have got done aswell. After the other limpers folding on the flop, I probably would of re-raised the UTG min-raiser on the flop. Hard to see how ur behind on the flop alright...

ianmc38

Very unlucky. I'd be in a rage if i saw that set.

AmarilloFats

ianmc38 wrote:

Very unlucky. I'd be in a rage if i saw that set.

Just cause I feel like I'm being ignored.I strongly disagree that that Mike was unlucky!Original post never said villain was bad.
Average villain always has always had a set here, every time. There are ZERO hands you will stack an average villain with here.
ZERO hands that will call your push that don't have you beat..None. Nada.

What do you think?

ps sorry just feel ignored...

ianmc38

AmarilloFats wrote:

Unlucky Shortstack.

AmarilloFats wrote:

Just cause I feel like I'm being ignored.I strongly disagree that that Mike was unlucky!

Shortstack

AmarilloFats wrote:

Just cause I feel like I'm being ignored.I strongly disagree that that Mike was unlucky!Original post never said villain was bad.
Average villain always has always had a set here, every time. There are ZERO hands you will stack an average villain with here.
ZERO hands that will call your push that don't have you beat..None. Nada.

What do you think?

ps sorry just feel ignored...

Sorry I wasn't ignoring you. I have stacked many players on similar flops with similar hands. I had no information on the type of player so I was basing all my information on bet sizing/players in pot/position. This time he had a set but faced with the same decision I doubt I would play it much different. I was looking to see how many people ruled out his actual hand and most did. A bigger raise from him on the flop and I would wait for a better spot. Him in later position I would also be more wary. Even better players will give you there stack with an Over Pair to the board. I stacked Conor Tate who is no mug on a similar flop last night, he had JJ and called my all in.

ianmc38

I think that the majority of times with no read and based on betting patterns that you will have the villain dominated here.

AmarilloFats

ianmc38 wrote:

Just messing, slightly argumentative, to get a reply.

Shortstack wrote:

A bigger raise from him on the flop and I would wait for a better spot. Him in later position I would also be more wary. Even better players will give you there stack with an Over Pair to the board. I stacked Conor Tate who is no mug on a similar flop last night, he had JJ and called my all in.

Thanks for reply..Interesting hand....

So, in the 5/10 games u play, players with 75-100BB will limp UTG allowing 6 players(ring game) to see the flop. Then after getting 1% to 1.3% of their stack in preflop proceed to get all in without improving on a board like 3c 5c 7h,T??
My game selection must be ****e...

djkeogh

i dont think there's anyway you could call him on that hand. I'd have been down the river all the way on that one myself. Unlucky

roryc

tbh I would have thought i was up against either a set of three's or a flopped straight on the info given. The min-raise from an average player usually represents a very good hand

I don't think i would have seen the set of fives though

ianmc38

roryc wrote:

tbh I would have thought i was up against either a set of three's or a flopped straight on the info given.

So you think he was limping UTG with 46 with 5 players left to play behind him. Sorry but i have to disagree with that. Perhaps 1% of players at that level maybe would make that move.

Norwich Fan Rob

if he had a str8 i would have laughed, and find it hard not to laugh each time i saw him after that.

fuzzbox

Shortstack wrote:

$5/$10 NL 10 handed.
I am in the big blind with 5 7o, 6 limpers including UTG and small blind.

Flop 3c 5c 7h

I bet out $40 into a $70 pot and I am minimum raised by UTG. I call the $40 more and the turn is a 10 non club. I check he bets $160.

What is his hand here judging by his actions? We both started with $750 in chips.

Either a set or a set. But its probably a set.

I prefer to lead the turn and fold a raise.

AmarilloFats

fuzzbox wrote:

Either a set or a set. But its probably a set.

I prefer to lead the turn and fold a raise.

I find your ideas intriguing how may I subscribe to your magazine...
elaborate if you would why u think it's so cut and dry!?

fuzzbox

AmarilloFats wrote:

I find your ideas intriguing how may I subscribe to your magazine...
elaborate if you would why u think it's so cut and dry!?

Well its either a set or a draw (perhaps AcKc or something).
Its most likely a set, but you still arent sure (and you do have top two pair after all).

If you check the turn on a blank then AcKc (or whatever) will check behind you taking a free card.

Thus if you go for a turn check/raise all-in then you lose the most when you are behind and gain the least when you are ahead (of a draw), because he checks.

So leading ... say 100 and folding a raise is a kind of middle ground.

Of course the fun starts if he smooth calls you.

AmarilloFats

Bottom 2 pair in this case

http://forumserver.twoplustwo.com/showthreaded.php?Cat=0&Number=4430347&page=

Norwich Fan Rob

fuzz u are superb are definitevely putting people on hands, right after we are told what the villian had. next time make a comment b4 the hand is revealed.

(i refer u to the almost definitely a flush hand)

as discussed earlier, this could easily be a big pair.

roryc

ianmc38 wrote:

So you think he was limping UTG with 46 with 5 players left to play behind him. Sorry but i have to disagree with that. Perhaps 1% of players at that level maybe would make that move.

Yes I would agree that it wouldn't normally happen, but you can't discount it. Perhaps he was a loose player and was limping in with anything. There isin't enough info given. It is the kind of post-flop play I would have expected from either a set or a flopped straight, regardless of the pre-flop play.

fuzzbox

Norwich Fan Rob wrote:

fuzz u are superb are definitevely putting people on hands, right after we are told what the villian had. next time make a comment b4 the hand is revealed.

(i refer u to the almost definitely a flush hand)

as discussed earlier, this could easily be a big pair.

I made the comment before I read the thread. Thats the same thing as making it before the hand is revealed.

Its not a big pair if he calls your turn check-raise.

AmarilloFats

Norwich Fan Rob wrote:

fuzz u are superb are definitevely putting people on hands, right after we are told what the villian had. next time make a comment b4 the hand is revealed.

(i refer u to the almost definitely a flush hand)

as discussed earlier, this could easily be a big pair.

I said it was a set before it was disclosed by shortstack...
some people said It could be a big pair but Not easily, as to go broke here with a big pair is particuarly bad imho.And it was not indicated that villain was bad..

the thread was called "whats his range?"...

ianmc38

Well rory, based on last nights cash game, i wish i was a bit looser like you describe. 3 pots of 500+ that i would've taken down.

1st:

I'm in the cutoff with 45, limp and fold to a pot sized raise form the BB after everyone had limped.

Flop 445

2nd:

Again in the cutoff, lots of action before me. I look down and fold 46. Flop comes 235. Once again UTG, UTG+1 and another player make monster bets. 1 with an overpair, 1 with top pair and one with two pair.

Pot ended up near €1000 and i would have taken it.

3rd Dealt T7o UTG. Fold. Flop 89J and i just can't play at that table anymore...

Bozzer

fuzzbox wrote:

Its not a big pair if he calls your turn check-raise.

Hey fuzzbox. Given that we've checked turn here and decided to play on, do you think check-call turn & push blank river is better than cr turn all in.
This line looks a lot like a busted draw and so if he was betting turn with big pairs then he's more inclined to look you up. Also if he did happen to have a set then you may save money if the river doesn't blank and is checked through.
Drawback is if villain would have called turn cr with AA/KK or if villain was betting the turn with a draw, but both of these aren't very likely.

fuzzbox

Bozzer wrote:

Hey fuzzbox. Given that we've checked turn here and decided to play on, do you think check-call turn & push blank river is better than cr turn all in.
This line looks a lot like a busted draw and so if he was betting turn with big pairs then he's more inclined to look you up. Also if he did happen to have a set then you may save money if the river doesn't blank and is checked through.
Drawback is if villain would have called turn cr with AA/KK or if villain was betting the turn with a draw, but both of these aren't very likely.

He should fold a turn c/r with unimproved big pair (whatever it might be).
I prefer to find out if he has a set or a draw (although its almost certainly a set, as a draw would often just call here, because there are players to act behind, and he only minraised). Perhaps you can fold right away, but thats too hard.

I prefer lead turn and fold to a raise, rather than try to contrive a situation where I try to get my stack in.

In fact, 3 betting the flop, and folding a push might not be bad, but he might push with a big draw. If the turn is a club I check/fold. If not then lead for 100 and fold to a raise seems like a nice plan.

If I check the turn, then he will take a free card if he has a draw, and thats no good.

Bozzer

I agree leading turn is best but I was just wondering what you'd do if you were hero given that you checked turn and he bet.
Kind of stupid to talk about because it's a situation you wouldn't put yourself in.

Norwich Fan Rob

fuzz, the question is whats his hand judged by his actions after he bets out on the turn, i dont see how a check raise or whatever on the turn comes into it, if he has a big pair, he will thinks it good on that flop, he may have us on one of many draws, we check the turn, he bets enough (160) that he can get away from a big check raise by us, yet charging us if we are drawing, how on earth can u say he defo doesnt have a big pair, if i limp AA utg, hoping for a re raise, but no one does, i play it exactly the same way of the flop and turn , and ditch it to a check raise on the turn.

Hectorjelly

If conor tate really lost his stack with an overpair to a player in the blinds in an unraised pot then he should probably stick to tournaments.

I dont understand the need for a check raise at any point in this hand, only a terrible player will call all in with an overpair. I wouldnt be worried about a draw as the opponent is quite content to price himself out. I would probably fold the turn, but If I decided to play the hand just calling is fine. On the river i think check calling a non club and leading a club river (as a blocking bet) is the most profitable way to play that street.

Hectorjelly

Doctor Fell wrote:

Sorry, just had another thought - he's got A10c, and u get rivered by an A or a 10???

2 Pair > 1 pair

MrPillowTalk

ianmc38 wrote:

I think that the majority of times with no read and based on betting patterns that you will have the villain dominated here.

Have to dissagree here.

Its a tough hand, once your minraised on the flop there are two choices 1) go into call down mode and get there cheap as possible, block betting a scare card on the river as HJ described, or 2) reraise the flop to 220, if he moves in then I'd fold, if he calls then its tougher and you probably have to get away on the turn against any real bet, this play is far more aggresive but I prefer it to calling the min raise.

Once you call the flop raise I think leading the turn for a strong bet is the correct play, you can still get the same information as raising his turn bet but it is cheaper if he has a real hand.

2 pair in an unraised multi way pot is a loser for me personally, dont think many platers will be calling the all in with any hand that doesnt have you beat.

Q)Has this post contributed anything new?
A)no
Q)why did I regurgitate information allready posted?
A)Meh.........................:o