Blackjack Question

NeVeR

I know this is not poker but it's a card game and i didnt know where else to put it,

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We where talking today in work about the card counters and how they do it and how the casino could stop them and the question came up to why dont they use a smaller amount of decks and shuffle before each hand, then we said that would slow the game down a little and we thought why not have 2 decks of 2 decks, while 2 decks are been used (instead of 6) the other 2 are been shuffled by an auto shuffler or something like that once the hand is over they swop. that would stop card counting,,,


Is there a reason why they use 6 decks?
Would you play with less deck (i.e 2 decks)

Doe they use 6 cos the odds are better for the player?

roryc

I know everyone was to stop giving out about punctuation and that, but would it hurt to use a full stop! It hurts my head reading that!

If you want to read a great book about card counting buy Ben Mezrich's 'Bringing down the House'

http://www.amazon.com/gp/product/0743249992/103-1767906-0180605?v=glance&n=283155

Doctor Fell

They use 6 decks because the more decks that are used, the less accurate and reliable point-based card counting is. If u used 2 decks it's mush easier for the card counters to hit!!

NeVeR

sorry when i start typeing i dont check grammer/spelling or punctuation,

I dont want to card count i was just posting that query,

NeVeR

Doctor Fell wrote:

They use 6 decks because the more decks that are used, the less accurate and reliable point-based card counting is. If u used 2 decks it's mush easier for the card counters to hit!!

not if they shuffle before each hand,

bmc

A lot of people play Blackjack because they THINK they KNOW what's going on in terms of odds. Particularly the big gamblers. If you start shuffling the deck between hands then they'll have less interest. These are of course the people that the casino wants at the table.

Very few people can properly count cards and the cut, table limits and other factors decrease their edge from the counting dramatically so its generally not a problem.

Edit:

As I see it anyway.

Doctor Fell

NeVeR wrote:

Is there a reason why they use 6 decks?
Would you play with less deck (i.e 2 decks)

Doe they use 6 cos the odds are better for the player?

Oh right, but I was talking about what u said above.

MGrah

NeVeR wrote:

not if they shuffle before each hand,

If you've six people sitting at a blackjack table, the sixth to play can see all of the cards already used by the previous five. shuffling wouldn't prevent this. With only 1/2 decks potentially a pip value might already be exhausted by your turn to play.

NeVeR

MGrah wrote:

If you've six people sitting at a blackjack table, the sixth to play can see all of the cards already used by the previous five. shuffling wouldn't prevent this. With only 1/2 decks potentially a pip value might already be exhausted by your turn to play.

i said use 2 deck's not one.

Lafortezza

Doctor Fell wrote:

They use 6 decks because the more decks that are used, the less accurate and reliable point-based card counting is. If u used 2 decks it's mush easier for the card counters to hit!!

It's easier to card count when there's more decks being used. Harder when less.

6 decks are used because the game moves faster than having to shuffle 2 decks every time the shoe is finished.
They want to keep people at the BJ table and if the game is halting every minute people get distracted and wander off.

I got "Bringing down the house" for Christmas, very good book.

Doctor Fell

lafortezza wrote:

It's easier to card count when there's more decks being used. Harder when less.

No, it's the opposite - it's easiest with one deck, and gets progressively more difficult the more decks are used.
When card counting you try to keep track of the cards already used, and use this info to determine the point at which the deck becomes "profitable" for the player. Obviously the more decks used, the more difficult it is to determine this point. Much easier with a smaller number of decks!

Shortstack

In Vegas there are loads of ways they can stop card counting now. One is using machines that constantly shuffle the deck. There are also tables now with 2 decks and even 1 deck tables where the deck is shuffled every hand.

NeVeR

Shortstack wrote:

In Vegas there are loads of ways they can stop card counting now. One is using machines that constantly shuffle the deck. There are also tables now with 2 decks and even 1 deck tables where the deck is shuffled every hand.

my god!! they stole my idea lol,,

MadsL

Anyone with half a brain would avoid a shuffled BJ game like a dose of something that would make you wish you were born a woman, to quote Bullet-tooth Tony.

The point really is should casino be allowed to 'stop' card counters. There would be an outrage if card rooms banned players from playing poker, because they are 'too good', but card counters who are basically playing a game of chance skillfully can be banned for being too good at it.

MadsL

Oh - and notice that single deck shuffled BJ usually pays 6:5 on BJ :eek:

roryc

thats it. Card counting is NOT illegal. It is simply using 'skill' and knowledge of odds to your advantage. That is why you cannot be arrested for card counting. Just kicked out of the casino, and 'blacklisted'

MadsL

I've also noticed that using a back card after shuffling is now used a lot more, to prevent Ace tracking. (You see an Ace exposed during the shuffle, and cut exactly one or two decks into the shuffle - then count down to when the Ace will fall - and bet big!)

Not that I can cut exactly 52 more's the pity

NeVeR

and they dont stop good poker players cos they are not playing against the casino.

but i agree card counters should be allowed play in any casino..

MGrah

NeVeR wrote:

i said use 2 deck's not one.

I think you'll find I said 1 or two and it applies either way. Anyway, Mike says they're doing it already, so there must be some logic to it.

RoundTower

Doctor Fell wrote:

No, it's the opposite - it's easiest with one deck, and gets progressively more difficult the more decks are used.
When card counting you try to keep track of the cards already used, and use this info to determine the point at which the deck becomes "profitable" for the player. Obviously the more decks used, the more difficult it is to determine this point. Much easier with a smaller number of decks!

This is a myth. Unless you have trouble counting past ten, there is no difference between counting one deck or a hundred. You don't memorize the ranks of all the cards that have gone by.

Autoshufflers seem to put gamblers off blackjack, because they think they can beat it by counting cards. Of course they also put off winning blackjack players who know they can beat the game by counting cards. Many American casinos have autoshufflers for their other games (Caribbean stud etc.) but deal blackjack from a shoe.

staringelf

roryc wrote:

I know everyone was to stop giving out about punctuation and that, but would it hurt to use a full stop! It hurts my head reading that!

If you want to read a great book about card counting buy Ben Mezrich's 'Bringing down the House'

http://www.amazon.com/gp/product/0743249992/103-1767906-0180605?v=glance&n=283155

just bought that today...what are the odds? almost finished it in a marathon 4 hour reading session. excellent story. loving it so far. it may well be the only book i manage to fully read in 1 day.

Doctor Fell

RoundTower wrote:

This is a myth. Unless you have trouble counting past ten, there is no difference between counting one deck or a hundred. You don't memorize the ranks of all the cards that have gone by.

It's not a myth, its maths. It's nothing to do with how high u can count (that IS a myth!). It's to do with the larger number of cards in the sample space. The more decks and hence more cards, the more difficult it is to reach a profitable deck i.e. the more difficult it is to make regular reliable profitable decisions. I know you don't memorize anything, that's not what I said at all.
So basically there is a difference- the complexity increases with every deck added.

RoundTower

You may mean it is less likely you reach a profitable situation, which is true (depends on the deck penetration). But it's just as easy to figure out when you've got one.

Doctor Fell

RoundTower wrote:

You may mean it is less likely you reach a profitable situation, which is true (depends on the deck penetration). But it's just as easy to figure out when you've got one.

Yep, that's exactly what I meant.
Plus also that when you do reach a theoretically profitable deck, its more reliable when using smaller number of decks. So if ur playing and u reach a high enough count, and u increase ur bet size - u will do better more often with smaller deck sizes, as the count "means" more. For example with 6 decks there's still a lot of cards u don't want to see after u reach a high count.