Here's a controversial one for you

direbadger

Acceptance of paedophilia

Now don’t get me wrong, I love manga. But this issue has been niggling at me for a long time. There seems to be a bit of an acceptance of paedophilia in quite a few manga. In Cardcaptor Sakura for example there’s an 11-year-old called Rika who is in love with her teacher, Mr Terada. Nothing unusual about that – except that he reciprocates and promises to marry her (exactly when he means I’m not sure).

Then there’s Chii from Chobits. Now I know she’s not actually a girl, she’s a robot. But she represents a young girl of I’d say about 11, perhaps at eldest 13. I suppose it makes things slightly better that the person lusting after her in that comic (apart from many readers presumably) is a young boy himself.

Then we come onto the dodgiest one of all, the one that made me post this – Di Gi Charat. Piyoko is constantly getting “check ups” from her doctor friends which of course necessitates her taking off her clothes. She’s about 11. Grown men in the comic are forever shown to be lusting after Dejiko who’s 7!

Now I think anything is permissible in the realm of fantasy, in fact I read some fairly dodgy fanfiction myself. But fanfiction is underground, these are mainstream manga and fairly lighthearted at that. All of the above manga were also written and drawn by women, which I admit (no offence to males) confuses me too. Now, why are things like this shown in manga? Am I missing something about Japanese culture that says paedophilia is funny/cute? Any thoughts?

monkeyfudge

Well I know that the age of consent in Japan is fairly low. Around 12 or 13 I think.

direbadger

monkeyfudge wrote:

Well I know that the age of consent in Japan is fairly low. Around 12 or 13 I think.

Hmm, That goes some way towards explaing this, I think. I still don't "get" why the stuff in Di Gi Charat is supposed to be cute or funny though.

Thanks for the info!

monkeyfudge

Some more information on it here

It seems that it's technically 13... but in reality it's more like 16-18.

Raziel

Excellent topic. It does bother me to see childlike cartoon characters depicted suggestively. Japan is such a different culture, in some ways it seems more innocent, if that sounds right, then in other ways they have stuff like schoolgirls knickers for sale, and the problem of men groping women on packed trains, etc. I can't believe the age of consent can be as low as 13. That's a bit ridiculous.

monkeyfudge

Spain was 13 too... but I think they raised it up to 14 recently.

But certainly... a large majority of anime will have at least one character who likes to leach over young girls. But they do tend to be some of the funniest characters... Kimura in Azumanga Daioh is a personal favourite of mine.

psicic

Well, I had a big long post done about relationships with huge age gaps in Anime/Manga - was real proud of it too. Then I reread yer posts and realised it was hardly relevant. :rolleyes:

Back on-topic:

Perhaps the joke is more the fact that they so obviously aren't sexy that it's supposed to be funny. That everyone lusts after these girls, but the reader knows how immature/unsexy they actually are and doesn't lust after them. In fact, the reader draws the moral that there are plenty of things you lust after in life, but if you actually were to get it, it would turn out to be much less then expected.

In such a family-orientated society (i.e. where family is very important) such imagry would probably also play a part in helping (adult males) to identify with a character in a more fatherly then sexual way. I've not read or seen Di Gi Charat - is the character supposed to be a) sexy to the reader or b) sexy in the fantasy world created?

Reku

I think this may be a throw back to the sexist nature of Japanese society, you might note that the age of consent for marriage is lower for women than men according to the info in that link. Think to yourself how women tend to be treated and portrayed in many anime & manga, usually as either sex objects or weaker, depending on the males. Sadly Japanese society still suffers from some degree of sexism due to some families insisting on adhering to the more traditional views and raising their children, both male and female, as such. I've known a few Chinese women who felt rather hostile and contemptuous towards the more traditionally raised Japanese women for letting themselves be treated as servants by the men.
There was even an article in the Sunday Times style section shortly before Christmas which was about Japan and it too discussed this issue. However some girls will infact take advantage of this whole thing of being viewed as a sex object and effectively find themselves wealthy sugar daddies when only in their teens, using them to get all the cloths, make-up, jewelery, etc... that they want.
Thankfully this issue is on the mend but like us with the catholic church, and how many of our laws were clearly made due to religious, not moral or civic, reasons, it will likely be a long time before it is truely a part of their cultural history and nothing more.

direbadger

psicic wrote:

I've not read or seen Di Gi Charat - is the character supposed to be a) sexy to the reader or b) sexy in the fantasy world created?

Dejiko's not sexy! She's 7! And half a cat, but of course that's usually a good thing

And this in turn make the 13-year-old Rabi En Rose seem like a perfectly acceptable, womanly love-interest (but they DO draw her very womanly)

Don't bother reading it - it sucks. It's got too many in-jokes about the gamers store from whence it came.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Gamers_%28company%29

I'm enjoying people's thoughts on this.

damien

After talking to some people that worked in combating online child porn it seems that a lot of it comes from Japan or is hosted on Japanese websites. Child pornography is not illegal in Japan as far as I'm aware.

The level of perversion in Japanese culture seems a lot higher than that in the west anyway, or maybe they just advertise it more.

Zillah

damien.m wrote:

The level of perversion in Japanese culture seems a lot higher than that in the west anyway, or maybe they just advertise it more.

Surely you mean that the level of censorship and curtailing of free speech in the west is much higher?

My point is, its all subjective.

monkeyfudge

Zillah wrote:

Surely you mean that the level of censorship and curtailing of free speech in the west is much higher?

Actually some of the Japanese censorship laws could be partly to blame for all this.

They aren't allowed to show penises so the animators use penis shaped tenticles instead, which makes things look even more perverse actually.

Also, pubic hair wasn't allowed either... so they'd use girls without pubic hair.

But Japan certainly does seem to have a culture of prizing youthful women. It's very easy for a woman in her 20's to find herself 'left on the shelf'

Zillah

Wait. No pubic hair, so they use women with no pubic hair. Does that mean that pubic hair is the only part of a naked woman not allowed?

monkeyfudge

Zillah wrote:

Wait. No pubic hair, so they use women with no pubic hair. Does that mean that pubic hair is the only part of a naked woman not allowed?

Yep... the law was changed a year or two ago though, so I think they can show pubic hair now. Although I've yet to see pubic hair in a japanese cartoon... perhaps the new Studio Ghibli film will surprise us all.

Any Japanese porn I've ever seen has been a bit rubbish too as they still seem to have to censor out erect penises. Not that I'm a big fan of erect penises or anything... it's just nice to know that they're there.

Zillah

Rofl.

Raziel

damien.m wrote:

Child pornography is not illegal in Japan as far as I'm aware.

And yet they censor genitalia.

Reku

I wonder if the law against showing pubic hair in fact encouraged the whole use of underage cast and prevailance of child porn in Japan, afterall if you show a teen with no pubic hair they may well look like a child and even in here in western culture far too often there seem to be adverts for teen-porn (damn e-mail spam!!!! :mad: ).

monkeyfudge wrote:

Any Japanese porn I've ever seen has been a bit rubbish too as they still seem to have to censor out erect penises. Not that I'm a big fan of erect penises or anything... it's just nice to know that they're there.

Tsk, tsk, shame on you!

Fenian

Child porn is illegal in Japan, but so called "lolicon" is not.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Lolicon

Reku

Child porn only made illegal in the year 2000!!! :eek: :eek: :eek:

omegoku

Ive read a couple of manga that involve lolicon in one way or the other, including Excel Saga and the like, and to be honest, I dont really see a problem with it. In Japan, it is acceptable, the fact that these manga have been published outside of Japan and are easily purchased means that American publishers dont see it as a problem either. It is fiction, they are simply drawings and as such its no different than depicting murder or anything else frowned upon in art..

Fenian

It is my opinion that lolicon and anyone who draws, purchases or views it are in serious need of therapy. Some of the images are down right distrubing, ie. gang rape etc.

That said, I don't think it should be banned. Since no one is harmed in the drawing of such images, there is no victim.

Laguna

Fenian wrote:

That said, I don't think it should be banned. Since no one is harmed in the drawing of such images, there is no victim.

Hmm, but does this not then invoke the age old argument of someone viewing such materials and then being influenced to go out and do the same thing depicted in the manga/anime?..

I personally think the lolicon aspect/"genre" (if it can even be classed as a genre) of anime is sick, there's no justification for its existence except to pander to paedophiles.

Japanese culture seems to be permeated with very deranged ideas in regard to underage girls in various states of undress or sexual situations, you practically have a 70% chance when you open any Manga to find some scene in which grown men are depicted lusting after a girl who is usually no more than ten years old.

Reku

While I'd disagree with anything that depicts paedophilia, necrophilia or beastiality (IMO they're very much just sicknesses, not fetishes), I still have to say that I feel I'd be happier to have such individuals endulging themselves with a mag that harms no-one than going out to endulge themselves in the real world.

Zillah

Fenian wrote:

It is my opinion that lolicon and anyone who draws, purchases or views it are in serious need of therapy. Some of the images are down right distrubing, ie. gang rape etc.

Wtf? Gang rape is terrible but mass murder is fine? How about movies? If a movie portrays a rape should anyone that appreciates the film get therapy?

Fenian

Wtf? Gang rape is terrible but mass murder is fine? How about movies? If a movie portrays a rape should anyone that appreciates the film get therapy?

No, I shouldn't think they would need therapy, but if someone buys a lolicon manga or downloads lolicon which depicts the gang rape of children then I would say they need therapy.

Also, I never said mass murder was fine.

Hmm, but does this not then invoke the age old argument of someone viewing such materials and then being influenced to go out and do the same thing depicted in the manga/anime?..

Laguna, I fully understand your point, but we could also say the same about violence in anime/manga. If lolicon is banned, whats next? The banning of violent manga/anime because some eejit may or may not go on a rampage with a samarui sword?

I know going on a rampage with a samurai sword and raping children are not the same, but the whole idea of " I read it in a manga so I did" concept is the same.

Raziel

farohar wrote:

Child porn only made illegal in the year 2000!!! :eek: :eek: :eek:

That is pretty shocking.

I suppose lolicon is suppossed to be 'suggestive'-I don't think that's any less worse.

Reku

Laguna wrote:

Hmm, but does this not then invoke the age old argument of someone viewing such materials and then being influenced to go out and do the same thing depicted in the manga/anime?..

Now that I think of it wasn't there some ejjit once who went into a busy town brandishing a sword an claiming to be immortal after watching too many "Highlander" flicks/episodes? If I remember correctly they sorted him out with tear gas in the end.

omegoku

theres always one..
Just because there are some loons out there, that means the rest of us should be deprived of good films. Ive watched countless violent films, and I havent killed anyone (important) yet..
Just coz I read a manga depicting a young girl being leered at doesnt mean Im going to go hide outside the school gates with a camera.. security is way too tight

Fenian

To be honest the Japanese have a very cruel culture, I'm sure people have heard the saying,
"civilizations are judged by how they treat the vulnerable".

If anyone has read the book "the rape of Nanking" they will understand or heard how the Japanese treated POW's and civilians during WW2.
We all know that children are the most vulnerable people in society, and look at Japans attitude towards child porn and lolicon.

But to qoute Dr. Stranglelove ,
"Thing is, they make damn good cameras."

Reku

Fenian wrote:

But to qoute Dr. Stranglelove ,
"Thing is, they make damn good cameras."

All the better to make child porn with...:p (sorry if you feel that was in poor taste.)

Crash

Now that you mention it, i am immortal. i have inside me blood of kings (yeah)

If someone's going to do anything influenced by that, (this may be a shocking statement) they're already fricking nuts. they could've read "the billy goats gruff" and just as easily decided to hide under bridges and try and eat the people who pass over.

Reku

*Warning :- ranting immanent*
Still there are many idiots out there who have difficulty separating what they read and see on TV/in films, e.g. in the early days of Coronation St. when one of the families in the series was leaving many Brits made inquiries as to buying the house they'd lived in, then there was the whole "free Deirdre Rashied" thing.

The number of Americans who believe in UFOs due to Sci-Fi and the odd crazy person (a race intelligent enough to cross the galaxy is not going to come all that way just to abduct the fattest, ugliest sod they can find and poke things up his backside, ever wonder why no-one who'd be classed as anything approaching a genius has claimed to have been abducted?).

Then the amount of people who believed that Iraq had WMDs and that that was why Britain and the US were going to war just because some of the news stations reported things that way. ROFL

Many people still believe that lemmings commit mass suicide due to a TV documentary which showed them all leaping off a cliff.

monkeyfudge

That's because trust is such a huge part of human society. And is an important stage in our evolution.

Our first instinct is to want to believe and trust in other humans. But we need to now temper that instinct with rational thought... which a lot of people seem have trouble doing.

Son Goku

monkeyfudge wrote:

They aren't allowed to show penises so the animators use penis shaped tenticles instead, which makes things look even more perverse actually.

Just thought I'd add that tentacle sex has been part of Japanese culture for over four hundred years. It was originally a piece of female erotica depicted in wood cuts.

nadir

Fenian wrote:

To be honest the Japanese have a very cruel culture, I'm sure people have heard the saying,
"civilizations are judged by how they treat the vulnerable".

If anyone has read the book "the rape of Nanking" they will understand or heard how the Japanese treated POW's and civilians during WW2.
We all know that children are the most vulnerable people in society, and look at Japans attitude towards child porn and lolicon.

To be honest that's a rediculous statement, Japanese commited war crimes sure, but I'd blame this more on the Imperialist government of the time, what's more all the powers commited war crimes during the war, what about the Americans nuking Japan, Firebombing Tokyo.
Bomber Harris in Germany etc. It was a war after all.
As for the Lolicon and childporn, these are extreme manifistations of the negative side of Otaku like culture. It's a price you pay for Greater positive aspects of Japanese culture, it's wrong to Judge the entire Culture for these reasons, elements of Otaku culture are also decent imho. Repressed western society may find it easy to Judge other cultures but you miss the bigger picture. Declaring their Culture Cruel is all wrong, it's exactly the opposite, they have an extreme culture, it's full of good and bad just like everywhere, it balences out in the end, whats important is that the positve aspects of their culture are extreme also.
I could rant all day, but I'm not sure it would be worth my while

ohh also, there was pubic hair in A Perfect Blue (1997)
Anime law is different afaik.

Fenian

To be honest that's a rediculous statement, Japanese commited war crimes sure, but I'd blame this more on the Imperialist government of the time,

Why is it ridiculous? Just because you believe it not to be true. My father is from Hong Kong and his mother is from main land China, she has some horrific stories about the Japanese. But according to you she should blame the Imperialist government of the time, I'm sure that will make her and millions of others feel alot better.

I could rant all day, but I'm not sure it would be worth my while

You could, but you'll never convince me the Japanese culture is not a cruel one. I never said they are all bad, nor all their culture bad. Every culture has something beautiful and enriching to offer, but the way the Japanese have treated the vulnerable in the past and present is disagraceful, and they treated these people so poorly because it is inbedded in their culture.

sharingan

By the same token then, the Germans are a cruel race for the even greater crimes conducted by Nazi Germany on the countries they occupied. Ditto the russians for the atrocities commited under the stalinist regime.

People change, regimes pass. I for one will treat modern japanese/german/russian people that I meet, the same as the members of any other race.

Not entirely sure about the rules here, but racist sentiment is normally banned on most forums I frequent.

direbadger

Son Goku wrote:

Just thought I'd add that tentacle sex has been part of Japanese culture for over four hundred years. It was originally a piece of female erotica depicted in wood cuts.

We all know about the Dream of the Fisherman's Wife! That's not what this is about! Nor do I think is anybody actually suggesting that seeing very young girls depicted as sex-objects in manga is going to cause anyone to go out and rape kids.:rolleyes: I'm not anyway.

Fenian and Sharingan, play nice!

Fenian

Come on sharingan, you can't call me racist (or imply it at least) because I think a certain portion of Japanese culture is cruel.

I for one will treat modern japanese/german/russian people that I meet, the same as the members of any other race.

So will I, I judge people not by what race or creed they are but what kind of person they are.

I always play nice :rolleyes:

CuLT

Jesus, you are an arrogant twat Fenian.

Get back on topic before I ban a reef of you for your boderline racist and generally f*cked up attitudes.

I want to make this perfectly clear; any sort of lolicon related discussion that is not discussed from an entirely academic perspective will get you banned. I will not have this forum be a harbour for closet paedophiles.

Son Goku

direbadger wrote:

We all know about the Dream of the Fisherman's Wife! That's not what this is about!

I was just saying that in case anybody thought it was a recent invention due to censorship laws. As in I just thought I'd add the fact to the discussion.

Nor do I think is anybody actually suggesting that seeing very young girls depicted as sex-objects in manga is going to cause anyone to go out and rape kids.

I never said you did. What are you talking about? I literally just posted a fact I thought might add to the discussion.

Fenian

How f ucking dare you accuse me of being a paedophile.

Personnaly I don't care if you think I'm a twat or not. I don't give a **** if you think I'm rascist or not, but If you EVER accuse me of being a paedophile again I will bring legal action against you for slander.

You can ban me if you want, but I find lolicon and child porn vile and disgusting and for you to imply that I am a paedophile is outrageous.

Jim_No.6

Fenian wrote:

How f ucking dare you accuse me of being a paedophile.

Personnaly I don't care if you think I'm a twat or not. I don't give a **** if you think I'm rascist or not, but If you EVER accuse me of being a paedophile again I will bring legal action against you for slander.

You can ban me if you want, but I find lolicon and child porn vile and disgusting and for you to imply that I am a paedophile is outrageous.

I think you misunderstood CuLT: in using the word reef, he meant a group of people. He then went on to outline the boards policy on paedophilia. I don't believe he meant any direct offence to you in this regard. However, I fail to see how your posts have fostered any kind of enlightened discussion on the subject - perhaps he should have mentioned his policy on hatebreeding instead?

As an aside, perhaps you should consider postponing posts you are going to make after 0300 until the morning.

Fenian

I truly hope I did misunderstand, if so , I apologize for my previous post.

I'd also like to apologize if I came off as a hatebreeder or a rascist. I assure ye I am not.

As an aside, perhaps you should consider postponing posts you are going to make after 0300 until the morning.

thats probably some good advice.