Thoughts on the IPC final.

NickyOD

Just interested to hear from those who saw it, your thoughts on the play at the final table. From what I saw there didn't seem to much postflop play at all. There were also some very strange moves made. 2 in particular come to mind. Dave Master's push preflop with K-6 when there was no need for him to move at all, and his table image had to be one of the loosest. He ended up cracking Aq by rivering the 6. :eek:

Also Barney Boatman's pocket sevens. I think he called a preflop raise. Bets on a Jack high flop but gives his oponent 5-1 to call which he does. Turn is a blank. They both check. River is an ace. His oponent leads fora small amount and Barney goes all in, not surprisingly getting called by AK.

I was disappointed not to see Vinnie O'Toole at the final table. He was one of the few really aggressive players left and he had Boatman in his back pocket all throught he second day. He showed him 2 huge bluffs then when Barney limped on the button, Vinnie completes te SB with A-4. George McKeever checks on the BB. Flop A-7-4. Vinnie knew if he flopped a monster and bet on it Boatman would come over the top, so he made a strong bet on the flop. George folded and Boatman put Vinnie all in. Vinnie calls. Boatman has A-9 and spikes a 9 on the turn. Ouch! Hard luck Longlad.


I thought the event was extremely well run. Even though they STILL had those ridiculous multishaded decks. Also the prizepool payouts were far too top heavy. Everyone knew this except Boyle poker. I mean 9th got only 9K. 8 ****ing buy ins for 3 days of poker and beating 384 oponents (98% of the field). Ridiculous. Payout structures like this also only encourage deal making which ironically the TV companies and sponsors want to avoid.

ianmc38

Mmm. I tend to agree about the payout structure. Fairly shambolic to say the least.

roryc

€150,000 for 1st
€18,000 for 4th


go figure...

NickyOD

roryc wrote:

€150,000 for 1st
€18,000 for 4th


go figure...

Yep and payout structures weren't even consistent throughout the 3 tournaments. In the €500 1st was 30% of the prizepool in a 200 player field. In the ME 1st was close to 40% of the prizepool in 393 player field. With this logic I estimate that in a 3000 player field 1st place will get 90% of the prizepool.

Amaru

Was anybody else expecting to open this and just see the words "IT SHOULD HAVE BEEN ME!"?:p

Shortstack

Nicky, I had a long chat to Barny about the pocket sevens. Basically he had Keiran on a weak jack after he called the flop bet, when the Ace came he thought he would take it down with the all in. A simple case of going with a read that is wrong.

Payouts were a bit lopsided, I would have expected 25-30% for the winner with a field of nearly 400.

Overall it was a very well run event. I hope they bin those cards now, there has been complaints about them all through the satellites as well. Unfortunately my eyesight is too bad to take advantage of the fact that every deck was marked after one hand

Fintan and his team have set a high standard for other organiser's to follow. This was the first time an event has been run for this number of people in Ireland and there was bound to somethings that didn't as smoothly as planned. They have shown that they listen to constructive criticism and act on it as necessary.

I for one am already looking forward to June. The Irish are blessed with some of the best festivals in Europe, still to come in 2006 are The Irish Open, Pokervevents €3000 entry and the EPT. Anyone got a spare €10k so I can prebook them all?

The_Chopper

I remember watching that hand involving Barney.
Kieran had been playing tight at this table and indeed when it was at the last 2 tables. Kieran raised preflop so how could Barney put him on a weak Jack? Barney raised the jack high flop (the correct play in my opinion), but only 100000, into a 190000 pot giving Kieran (who had been hitting cards) almost 3 to 1 to call the bet (still an arguable call). Then Barney checks the flop and when the ace hits on the river, Kieran bets out and Barney goes over the top all in, to me it seems like crazy play. I suppose it's easy when you're not involved.

Just a quick note on Barney - I thought some of his plays were very bad. I would have expected more from a seasoned pro, especially when it got down to the last 20 or so. He got trapped by Vinny the longlad - only to outdraw him on the turn. He called an all in bet preflop by a rock after raising under the gun with pocket 8's. Of course the rock turned over A's only to be outdrawn on the turn by an 8. Of course this is just my opinion - what do I know.

roryc

I've played against Barney, and he normally is a very good player, but everybody has bad days!

masterK

For somebody who is relatively new to tournament play and would like to have a go at one of these major tournaments but wouldn't be willing to pay the €1000 entry fee what are the other options open?

I presume one could pay €100 and enter a satellite to gain entry, how many places are up for grabs here? Are there any online type qualifiers?

Nice to see some young Irish lads picking up the big cheques, I know the guy who came 2nd, he's hasn't been playing all that long, there's hope for all of us.

The_Chopper

Another hand that I couldn't understand was when it was down to the last 3. Button calls, SB completes, BB checks (120000) in the pot. Flop checked. On the turn J, 10 is the nuts, I can't remember if it was to the king of ace, but there's 2 to a flush out there one of which has just come on the turn. BB bets out 30000, button raises to 90000, and BB calls. BB bets out the river when the flush hits - button moves all in and BB calls with the flush. Button had J, 10.
To me this hand seems like it was played wrong a couple of times,
1. Why wasn't J, 10 raised on the button (3 handed) by an aggressive player
2. Why did J, 10 not bet out the open ender after it was checked to him on the flop,
3. How could the BB justify calling 60000 into a 240000 pot when he's only getting 4 to 1 on his money and not the required 6 to 1 (implied odds aside)
4. Why did the button not raise more on the turn when a bet was put into him?
5. How could the button loose all his chips on the river with the flush did hit?

Shortstack

The_Chopper wrote:

Another hand that I couldn't understand was when it was down to the last 3. Button calls, SB completes, BB checks (120000) in the pot. Flop checked. On the turn J, 10 is the nuts, I can't remember if it was to the king of ace, but there's 2 to a flush out there one of which has just come on the turn. BB bets out 30000, button raises to 90000, and BB calls. BB bets out the river when the flush hits - button moves all in and BB calls with the flush. Button had J, 10.
To me this hand seems like it was played wrong a couple of times,
1. Why wasn't J, 10 raised on the button (3 handed) by an aggressive player
2. Why did J, 10 not bet out the open ender after it was checked to him on the flop,
3. How could the BB justify calling 60000 into a 240000 pot when he's only getting 4 to 1 on his money and not the required 6 to 1 (implied odds aside)
4. Why did the button not raise more on the turn when a bet was put into him?
5. How could the button loose all his chips on the river with the flush did hit?

1: Dunno
2: Dunno
3: Well he's 4:1 to hit a flush (9/44 cards to hit) so he doesn't need to get that much more on the river when he hits to make it a good call, Dave should have moved all in here there was enough in the pot already although he obviously never had him on a flush draw.
4: He was milking I presume.
5: He never put him on a flush but he should not have moved all in.

ollyk1

Your missing some details Chopper but assuming the BB is calling for the nuts or whats hes confident would be the winning hand with a flush he has a 20% chance of hitting on the river. Therefore he only needs 4/1 odds (which he was clearly getting and any implied odds were just a bonus).

Plus if he had an overcard to the board which he thought might be live (say he thinks there is a 20% chance hes up against top pair and a gutshot straight draw but he has a live Ace) then apart from "survival tournament thinking" (which is up to each player to reflect on the value of himself) then he has to call and even more so if there's a nice few chips left behind.

As to the guy with the straight losing his stack with a flush board maybe its because he's a non-believer and this will teach him!!

The_Chopper

I agree that Dave should have moved in on the turn or at the very least made it expensive. Especially considering how Kieran had hit cards the previous night and that day (AK v's 77 mentioned above) & (KQ v's KK) to mention a few. Sure that's poker!!!

Flipper

Hi all,

Kieran Walsh here. First off, I want to say thank you to all of ye who have said such fantastic things on this forum and on others too. It's really an honour to have won the Irish Championship.

I saw the comment regarding (what I consider to be the turning point of the final table) the hand in which I knocked out Barney. Here's how it played out... (by the way: sorry if 1 or 2 tiny details are wrong but i haven't even seen the recording yet)

Barney had not been playing hands as confidently and effectively as he was the night before (don't get me wrong - he still played brilliantly but he had been involved in a few big pots that really hurt his stack). I raised approx 4 x Big Blind with AK off-suit. I had made the same raise twice already with rags in order to steal blinds and antes so I thought Barney might smell a rat and call with even an average hand. The read I had on him was similiar to the one when he called Bill's AA with 88. So, I figured him for a pair (most likely middle). The flop came RAG-RAG-JACK. Barney instantly bet out a reasonable amount. From this, I know he hasn't made a set (because if he did, he would check-raise).

At this point, I've convinced myself that he has a middle pair and I KNOW he is still in front.... BUT I decided the best play was to represent the JACK. So I called (thinking that I would go into the turn and the river as the aggressor - and leave barney believing that I was trapping).

When the turn comes a RAG, Barney and I both check. At this moment I figured if the river came higher than a 10, I could pump the pot and Barney would have to lay down (he would be expecting me the go All-In anyway). Also, I was getting a free card.

When the river came An ACE, I bet small (hoping that Barney would think HE could represent the ACE).... Barney came over the top and we ended up all in. My pair of ACES beat Barney's pocket 77.

Myself, Barney and Mukesh had a few drinks that night and this hand was one of the main topics of conversation. We all agreed that my call on the flop was a little loose but you have to remember that I was chip leader (although, Dave may have had SLIGHTLY more than me) and sometimes you have to go after pots in the hope of eliminating the smaller stacks. I do hold my hands up and say then ACE was a dream card but Barney said had the flop came 10, J, Q or K, and I bet strong, he may have had to lay it down.

Hope that clears up some stuff!!

By the way, Barney and Mukesh were the two most formidable opponents at that final table - we all clashed a few times on Friday and Saturday too. Poker aside, they were two of the most terrific guys and I can't wait for another couple of drinks with them in Deauville next month!

If there are any other questions, please ask and I'll see if I can explain the method of my madness!

Bye for now,

Kieran

NickyOD

Well done Kieran. great tournament! I bnelieve the bet Barney made was only 125K into a pot of 400K so your call was not that loose at all. Someone correct me if I'm wrong. I really don't understand why Barney can't just bet 2/3 the pot there.

Flipper

Oh forgot to say:

1: AK vs 77 - that's not hitting cards - It's 48% vs 52%!!!

2: To illustrate the above, Barney's QQ stood up against my AK (a bad call by me) and took me from 290,000 (chip leader with 30 ish players left) to 110,000.

3: Now hands up, I got mega-lucky with KQ vs KK. The KK had raised to 24,000 preflop and (he was playing very tight) I figured I could take his bet, the blinds and the antes down with an all in. I had JUST lost the big pot to Barney (with the QQ v AK) and was i suppose, on tilt.

Any good tourney player knows that to battle through a field of 391 players, you need to have some luck.

Thanks again,

Kieran

bohsman

1 question Kieran, utg makes it 20,000 you go all in for 140,000 with KQ, why?
Congrats on the win

Flipper

thanks a million Nicky,

ya Barney did give me greater the 9/2 on the pot bet I still needed to be fairly certain that he would definalty take me for a JACK and give me a free river.

Flipper

As I said just above, I figured I would take down the blinds, Antes and bet from under the gun. I did not play him for KK and honestly, he was a solid player whom i felt would even lay down 99 or 1010.

I got it wrong. Also, it needs to be said, I had a few more outs from the flop.... let me explain: KQ vs KK (all-in pre-flop) Flop comes A - Q - J (I now had 4 x 10 to hit for the split (which i would have gladly taken!) and also, 2 x Q). 6 cards - TWICE. not exactly odds on i know, but not a 1,000,000/1 either!! Turn comes Q and River is a blank.

remember, sometimes TILT works!!

Shortstack

Flipper wrote:

Oh forgot to say:

1: AK vs 77 - that's not hitting cards - It's 48% vs 52%!!!

2: To illustrate the above, Barney's QQ stood up against my AK (a bad call by me) and took me from 290,000 (chip leader with 30 ish players left) to 110,000.

3: Now hands up, I got mega-lucky with KQ vs KK. The KK had raised to 24,000 preflop and (he was playing very tight) I figured I could take his bet, the blinds and the antes down with an all in. I had JUST lost the big pot to Barney (with the QQ v AK) and was i suppose, on tilt.

Any good tourney player knows that to battle through a field of 391 players, you need to have some luck.

Thanks again,

Kieran

Well done Keiran. It was great to have an Irish 1/2/3. Make sure you rub it in with Mr Corkery for not swapping a % with you

As for the KQ hand, the player you were playing against is good enough to have folded all but KK & AA there so in the long run it is a good play against him (however he will still be on tilt at next years event). You are right about needing a little bit of luck to win in such a large field, nothing can take away from the fact that you were the best on the day. As far as I can remember you only got really lucky in two hands anyway, the KQ vs KK and A10 on a ten high flop vs QQ. Don't spend it all at once, we will be in Deauville to report back to your new legion of fans on your progress.

Mike

bohsman

As you say he has been playing very tight all night so what is he raising with utg? I had to hear the story quite a bit in the bar after so I just wanted your opinions on it, well done on the win again

a-k-47

tilt,steal? ****e yourself if called

Shortstack

Flipper wrote:

thanks a million Nicky,

ya Barney did give me greater the 9/2 on the pot bet I still needed to be fairly certain that he would definalty take me for a JACK and give me a free river.

Well he definately took you for a Jack, or so he said anyway.

Flipper

Thanks for the kind words,

A brilliant weekend had by all, I think you'll agree. Ya, Barney did say he took me for a JACK and I stand by my play 100%.

Of course, the other hand we all discussed was the massive raise Barney made when his was drawing to the nuts flush when we were 10-handed.

Definately, the biggest hand of the whole tourney.

Shortstack

Flipper wrote:

Thanks for the kind words,

A brilliant weekend had by all, I think you'll agree. Ya, Barney did say he took me for a JACK and I stand by my play 100%.

Of course, the other hand we all discussed was the massive raise Barney made when his was drawing to the nuts flush when we were 10-handed.

Definately, the biggest hand of the whole tourney.

I think his view was if he got a big chiplead he would be able to take it down. he certainly seemed to be playing to accumulate, until he was knocked out he seemed to be in every pot. Did he also tell you he had €500 on you at 4:1?

Flipper

Ya he did!!

I had €400 on myself at 4/1 and I was told there was another bet of 2,000 on me (don't know who).

Mukesh told one of his mates just before we started to have €1,000 on me. When he came out after finishing 6th, he said "thank god I still have money riding on this" to which his mate said.......... "ummmm..... I never put it on!!!"

Mukesh was not happy but still a top bloke!!

Doc Farrell

As Steve Davis said to me

NAME DROPPING!

I'll start again.

As Steve Davis said to me on Sunday, waitresses would have made a fortune there?!

I cannot understand why there was no coffee, fresh sandwiches or waitresses!:mad:

Maybe I've become too used to the luxuries of card rooms and abhor mixing with the riff-raff in Citywest...:rolleyes:

ty.

Doc Farrell

I'm creating a second post for this point because I have been thinking about it and it feels absolutely true to me.

Steve Davis winning such a public tournament will have a more positive effect on the public's opinion of poker than anything that has happened or will happen in the past and next five years.

A player whose chosen game is synonymous with discipline, focus and brilliance winning a tournament of 280 players? A great day for poker.

From now on his nickname is Steve 'Synonymous' Davis. It rolls off the tongue!

RoundTower

Flipper wrote:

Ya he did!!

I had €400 on myself at 4/1 and I was told there was another bet of 2,000 on me (don't know who).

Mukesh told one of his mates just before we started to have €1,000 on me. When he came out after finishing 6th, he said "thank god I still have money riding on this" to which his mate said.......... "ummmm..... I never put it on!!!"

Mukesh was not happy but still a top bloke!!

Don't really want to hijack the thread but have there ever been decent prices offered by an Irish bookie on a poker tournament? Even at Citywest the sponsors Boylesports were making only a token effort. 8/1 Andy Black? 40-1 Tommy Tiernan? I offered 100/1 and 1000/1 and didn't get any takers. Maybe one of the smaller bookmakers could think about it.

kincsem

NickyOD wrote:

I thought the event was extremely well run. Even though they STILL had those ridiculous multishaded decks.

Also the prizepool payouts were far too top heavy. Everyone knew this except Boyle poker. I mean 9th got only 9K. 8 ****ing buy ins for 3 days of poker and beating 384 oponents (98% of the field). Ridiculous. Payout structures like this also only encourage deal making which ironically the TV companies and sponsors want to avoid.

The multishaded deck on my table was removed. Some of the cards were light(er) blue. The advertising gain Boylesport get from having their name on the decks is nil. I'm sure the ten players on our table would have chipped in €1 each for a proper deck.

Nicky, what is a payout? Is it something pros get?

Time to get Tom Murphy to organise players to dictate the payout structure. Whatever happened to the players organisation?

Paddy Power added €10,000 to a tourney in the Fitzwilliam last spring and stipulated that it was added to 1st place only. (Andy Black 1st; Brian Hatchell 2nd).
Boylesports wanted a large figure winners prize (€150,000) and also upped the prizepool to €400,000 for the advertising punch. But I think I'm correct in saying that it was a tourney with €393,000 paid by the players so the players should dictate the payout, not Boylesport.

I think 280th should have got €5000.

cooker3

Well first well done Kiernan on your victory.

I was a dealer for the event and despite the fact I worked 40 hours over the 3 days I still really enjoyed it. To be able to see Barney Boatman, Joe Beavers play up close and still get paid for it is really nice.

I completely agree with everyone about the cards and differant shade of colours, that drove me mad and lot of people complained about it and I have mentioned it so hopefully Fintan gets message on this.

The most frustrating part was when final table was on I was dealing in €250 buy-in tournament and you could hear all the screams and cheers from crowd outside and I really wanted to go outside and watch it but naturally I couldn't. So looking forward to actually watching it on tv.

All I can say is bring on tournie in June now.

Shortstack

kincsem wrote:

The multishaded deck on my table was removed. Some of the cards were light(er) blue. The advertising gain Boylesport get from having their name on the decks is nil. I'm sure the ten players on our table would have chipped in €1 each for a proper deck.

Nicky, what is a payout? Is it something pros get?

Time to get Tom Murphy to organise players to dictate the payout structure. Whatever happened to the players organisation?

Paddy Power added €10,000 to a tourney in the Fitzwilliam last spring and stipulated that it was added to 1st place only. (Andy Black 1st; Brian Hatchell 2nd).
Boylesports wanted a large figure winners prize (€150,000) and also upped the prizepool to €400,000 for the advertising punch. But I think I'm correct in saying that it was a tourney with €393,000 paid by the players so the players should dictate the payout, not Boylesport.

I think 280th should have got €5000.

I agree about the players association, it is something that Tom & I have discussed regularly and Antes Up/ Boards is definately the place to start it off. Whilst we will not be able to directly stipulate things, setting a charter and having a group voice will hopefully convince organsisers to change some things. As it happens I think we are a lot better off than the uK where there are a lot of stupid rules applied by the Gaming board which are to the detriment of poker.

Fintan reads boards and I am sure he will take on board some of the comments and he is also keen to see a players association himself.

bohsman

Is there a better venue available than Citywest? It is the worst hotel Ive ever stayed in, Residents bar shut at 4. There was no food other than packaged sandwiches available between 10 and 12 30 in the morning with play having finished at 4 30 and restarting at 1. No room service/food after 2 am.
No waitresses going around with drinks etc - impossible to go for water with running antes. No broadband - anyone using their connection got viruses

gerire

bohsman wrote:

Is there a better venue available than Citywest?

There has to be. Most, if not all hotels around have some sort of banquet/large function room that could accomodate 40 tables. A jurys or something Even the RDS could be considered as an option. From what I read over the weekend the poker side of things, apart from payout structure, was run well but the hotel really dropped the ball. Personally I dont like the man and hope they do lose these events after he pulled the plug on Irish Snookers big tournament too.

The_Chopper

Congrates Flipper - great win

roryc

I agree, fantastic win mate. Keep up the good work, always nice to have a new (winning) boardster!

Flipper

thanks again guys! All the support has been fantastic!

Legend_DIT

Flipper wrote:

thanks again guys! All the support has been fantastic!

Well done! But just remember that you're a Boards newbie (like me) and all your poker advice will be taken suspiciously regardless of any mickey mouse competition cou might have won ! (reference to another thread )

Doc Farrell

stick to the facts chief.

paste account histories and all will be believed.

u may be a legend but as a student u have to accept the disbelief of all sane adults

Legend_DIT

I was making a joke that was somehow connected to the lurker argument in the "Poker forum's busy thread" It didn't really work, and wasn't well planned or executed

I was inferring that until Flipper proved himself right here in the bigtime of the Boards.ie Poker Forum, his advice wouldn't be taken seriously....

Ok, that's that sorted, and I concede your point about checking up on me cos I'm a student...