How many years does it take to become a consultant??

lokoman

HI as the question say 'how many years does it take to become a consultant in Ireland'? I am currently studyin in RCSI 3rd med and was just wondering how long it takes. I am interested in General surgery, so if anyone could help me out here I would appreciate it. Also if you have any info on other specialities pleas let me know. Cheers.

ergo

OK, here's the career path for General Surgery (roughly) correct me if I am wrong, I am not a surgeon but have friends etc..

medical school = 5 or 6 years

intern= 1 year

senior house officer (SHO) on basic surgical training scheme = 2 years

research registrar year = 1 year (not mandatory but everyone tends to do it)

at this point you will usually apply for the SpR (Specialist Registrar) Higher Training Scheme)

often this is the major stumbling block, actually getting on to a scheme

most wannabe surgeons end up working at least a year or 2 or more as a Registrar (non-specialist) while trying to get on the SpR scheme. some never get on the scheme.

once on the SpR scheme as far as I know (and this is only true for General surg) you are more or less guaranteed a consultancy post at the end of the scheme (which is 5 years I am fairly certain)

having said that, you might finish your SpR and be fully trained but be waiting around for the right consultancy job to come up

so I suppose technically, if you're the brightest of the bright and a technically fantastic surgeon you could be a consultant 9 years after qualifying but it's rarely as straightforward as that

I think in all specialities in Ireland the average age of consultants appointed is 38 or somewhere around that area

and best of luck

and as a student, do research , do the USMLE's if you can (much easier said)
or alternatively enjoy the student days and holidays

Vorsprung

I was at an open night in Vincents a couple of months ago and they told us it was 3-4 years for SHO.

Tbh I think it depends on what speciality you do as well, for some things there's a good chance you'll be going abroad so add in a bit of time for that.

DrIndy

Depends much on the person, how focused they are and how good they are. All appointments are competitive. You need to have completed your membership exams to the college of surgeons or physicians before getting a SpR job and that can take time too.....

panda100

if your a girl and are considering becoming a consultant and want a family to forrgeddit.You usually have to do at least one year abroad or more,usually america in order to become a fully fledged consultant too

ergo

I wouldn't say girls should forget about being consultants if they want a family, there are plenty of examples of women who manage to combine both, and with the increasing ratios of girls to guys in med schools these days more and more girls will end up in all the different specialties, and the old school "closed shop" mentality to women in certain specialities such as surgery is definitely less prevalent than in the old days and slowly improving

to clarify a few things, it is minimum of 2 years as SHO, as Indy said you need to get the exams to progress, eg for Medicine you need to get the medical memberships (MRCPI) exams or for surgery the surgical ones (MRCS), I know someone who has failed the first part of the MRCPI 5 times and I know someone else who is into her 3rd year SHO because of failing part 2 of the MRCS a few times and that is holding her back

obviously when you're competing against people who got their exams first time round you would be at a disadvantage

in general for the medical specialities as far as I know there are way more SpR positions than consultancies (somebody said 1 consultant post for every 5 spRs) whereas in surgery once on the SpR scheme you are more or less guaranteed a consultant position at the end of the day. but all these stats are changing as more consultant positions are being created and money is being thrown into the black hole that is the health service...

and best of luck!

ucd_guy

Do ya have to go abroad (e.g. to the US) to become a consultant?

Does being quoted in a research paper help job prospects, or is it worth feck all? How about the USMLE exams - worth taking or waste of time?

Vorsprung

ucd_guy wrote:

Do ya have to go abroad (e.g. to the US) to become a consultant?

You're not going to see the widest range of cases in Ireland, I think most do go abroad.

ucd_guy wrote:

Does being quoted in a research paper help job prospects, or is it worth feck all?

Getting a job in med is 1/3 academic, 1/3 interview, and 1/3 other stuff, which includes research, electives you've done etc. So a consulant general surgeon told me once.

ucd_guy wrote:

How about the USMLE exams - worth taking or waste of time?

I was thinking about doing them now, but we had an almighty set of exams before xmas so I couldnt be arsed. If I find I have to go to the States in the future I'll just do locums for a year and study that wasy. Remember not all specialties have to be done in the states, there's Canada, UK and Australia too. All of the USMLEs have to be done within a 7yr period, step 3 is only done in 4 places in the states. SO if you think you'll be working in the States in 7 years...;)

ucd_guy

bigjimthefirst wrote:

Getting a job in med is 1/3 academic, 1/3 interview, and 1/3 other stuff, which includes research, electives you've done etc. So a consulant general surgeon told me once.

Remember not all specialties have to be done in the states, there's Canada, UK and Australia too.

Research? Does everyone do research while they're in college? Thinking of that, what about the whole Bachelor of Medical Science Intercalated Degree thing - do many people do that? Is it worth a damn to you at all or something worth doing? In Galway you have to take a year out to do it but I hear in UCD they let you do it on the side in 4th year - sounds like a pretty sweet deal to me!

What about the whole going abroad thing - I know an intern this year and she's headed to Australia for a year in July, and said a good few of her class are doing the same. Do ya have to do exams for Oz? I wonder is it possible to go to Australia for a year and still stay in the whole career-progression ladder over here, i.e. let your training in Oz count when you come back here?

Finally (thanks for answering all the questions, but ya seem like a fountain of knowledge!) what's the craic with electives when you're in the clinical years? For me, it's a big plus for doing medicine - going off to a foreign country/hospital for a month and learning out there. I know a lad that went to Africa in the summer between 5th and 6th year. Do they count for much? Does everyone do 'em? What about funds - it seems pretty expensive: do you have to finance the whole thing yourself? And very finally, , do many people go during the summer between 4th year and 5th year? For me, it's a huge plus so I'd like to go twice if I had the dosh!

Thanks in advance!

Vorsprung

ucd_guy wrote:

Research? Does everyone do research while they're in college? Thinking of that, what about the whole Bachelor of Medical Science Intercalated Degree thing - do many people do that? Is it worth a damn to you at all or something worth doing? In Galway you have to take a year out to do it but I hear in UCD they let you do it on the side in 4th year - sounds like a pretty sweet deal to me!

In UCD, once you've done all your anatomy,phys,biochem,path,micro and pharmacology (so xmas of 3rd med), you can get that extra degree if you do a summer research programme, either with or outside the college, it takes about 6-8 weeks and you get a grant for doing it. Most people dont go near research, much better things to be done with your holidays, but I'm told that it's the most impressive "extra" thing on your cv. You can do the research with anyone really, the UCD one is only a backup in case you dont get it with someone else. I suppose it is pretty sweet when you compare it to Galway, but personally I couldn't be arsed sitting in a lab when I could be doing an elective.

ucd_guy wrote:

What about the whole going abroad thing - I know an intern this year and she's headed to Australia for a year in July, and said a good few of her class are doing the same. Do ya have to do exams for Oz? I wonder is it possible to go to Australia for a year and still stay in the whole career-progression ladder over here, i.e. let your training in Oz count when you come back here?

We were talking about this today, from what I understand you get a 9 month contract in Oz, 3 x 3month placements around the country which is pretty sweet, you get to see a bit of the country. There's no exams for there. In terms of career progression, not sure what the deal is, Indy would probably know more. I suppose if you finish one grade here then head off for a year, then come back and apply for the next grade up it wouldn't be too bad. The aussies offer great packages, they are desperate for doctors, check these out

http://www.smh.com.au/articles/2005/12/04/1133631146703.html
http://www.imrmedical.com/FAQs.htm

ucd_guy wrote:

Finally what's the craic with electives when you're in the clinical years? For me, it's a big plus for doing medicine - going off to a foreign country/hospital for a month and learning out there. I know a lad that went to Africa in the summer between 5th and 6th year. Do they count for much? Does everyone do 'em? What about funds - it seems pretty expensive: do you have to finance the whole thing yourself?

A good few would do these. There's a special society in UCD that sorts out these electives, MSOR - Medical Students Overseas Relief. They fundraise all year and have a list of contacts in hospitals all over Africa and South America, last year every one who went abroad had about €1000, which was spent on buying drugs and supplies locally. You have to pay for travel food etc yourself, but you're not going to be staying in the Ritz so it's not as expensive as you might think.

They do count for a bit I suppose, depends what you're doing, you could be vaccinating the whole time or you could be thrown into the deep end of clinical basics! The guys in the year ahead of mine said it was a great experience, plus there's great travelling to be done after your stint.

I'm doing my clinical skills course at the moment, its 6 weeks long and I have on average about 3 hours a day, which starts at 8am so I'm usually finished by 12pm (if I go in at all). There's plenty of time to work and plenty of cash to be made, so it's a great time to get money together for whatever you decide to do in the summer.

ucd_guy wrote:

And very finally, , do many people go during the summer between 4th year and 5th year? For me, it's a huge plus so I'd like to go twice if I had the dosh!

Yea absolutely, there's a fair few in my year going this summer, and same from the year ahead of me. I was thinking about doing it this year but I'm going to stay local this summer, will head down to Africa in Summer 07 hopefully.

Hope that answers most of it, sorry if I missed anything