The night of the big wind....

SpitfireIV

At least this day back in 1839 they had lots of snow :rolleyes: , more than usual, but they also had a lot of wind too, stronger than usual :eek: . This day back in 1839 was known as 'the night of the big wind', Irelands hurricane. See below:

"The storm developed after a period of unusual weather. Heavy snow, rare in Ireland, fell across the country on the night of January 5, which was replaced on the morning of January 6 by an Atlantic warm front, which brought a period of complete calm with dense, motionless, cloud cover. Through the day, temperatures rose well above their seasonal average, resulting in rapid melting of the snow.

During daytime on the 6th, a deep Atlantic depression began to move towards Ireland, creating a cold front when it collided with the warm air over land, bringing strong winds and heavy rain. First reports of stormy weather came from western County Mayo around noon, and the storm moved very slowly across the island through the day, gathering strength as it moved. By midnight it had reached hurricane force

Scarey stuff, I think in all anywhere between 200 - 300 people died in that event.

So what were the chances of that happening? Was it just a freak event or could something similar strike us at any time? Or have we ever come close to that scenario since, or in recent times? The storm of Christmas Eve 1997 was pretty intense, I cant image what the 6th of January 1839 must have been like!

billy the squid

there was a severe storm in the 70s if I recollect correctly.

There was also hurricane Debbie in 1961


From the archives of the Limerick Leader

A HUGE gale smashed its way through Limerick 100 years ago to this week, causing what the Limerick Leader described at the time as "an extraordinary accident" at the Docks.

"A gale, which blew from the North-West, caused a big ship to break her moorings and do considerable damage," goes the account.

"The sailing ship, the 'John Cook', of Londonderry, was moored in ballast at the North-West side of the docks, being thus exposed to the full force of the storm.

"She was attached by chain cable to the iron stantion, which was sunk to a considerable depth at the side of the docks. She was also attached to a strong stantion at the edge of the dock wall by a wire cable.

"At 3am this morning, the chain snapped, thus leaving the ship dependant on the wire cable and, before long, the strong post sunk several feet into the ground was cut right through," the paper read.

The cable from the stern tore up the stone stantion to which it was attached, together with several large blocks, which helped to keep it firm.

The ship then moved towards the steamboat side and collided with the SS 'City of York', a large steamer discharging grain by the Garryowen.

The captain ordered the anchor to be let go, and this brought the vessel to a slower rate of speed, but she still dragged on and ran down the "St Michael", of Tarbert, sinking her close to the graving dock bridge.

"The crew of the St Michael had not time to get fully dressed before their craft was struck, and, were it not for the warning given them by a man called Hayes, their lives would have been surely lost," recounted the Leader.

The steel rudder of the John Cook struck the dock wall with such force that it snapped the pin in two places where it was about nine inches in diameter.

The St Michael was laden with a general cargo of coal, flour, meal and timber, about 40 tonnes, which was entirely lost.

The Adelaide, a large barge, was damaged, as was another ship, while a barge belonging to the harbour commissioners was sunk.

In the city, several houses suffered in the gale by having their roofs stripped of slates and tiles.

In Lower Cecil Street, a house was partly blown down. In the neighbourhood of the city, there were several hay ricks blown about, trees knocked down and outbuildings stripped of their roofs.

It is interesting that the article quoted "The Leader" considering the first issue of the Limerick leader wasnt printed until 1889. Chances are the accounts came from the Limerick Chronicle, which the Limerick leader acquired roughly 20 years ago and has been in print since the 1700s

Cork boy 55

Is there any estimation of how strong this 1839 storm was, Cat number etc?

eskimocat

M.T. Cranium wrote: »

The point was being made yesterday with the approach of Isaac that roughly 95% of all deaths associated with hurricanes are related to water and not wind. Now of course, the wind may produce the water in the case of a storm surge, but this thread generally started with the premise that the wind speeds were not that big a deal. That remains true, for most landfalling hurricanes, only a very small area sees much wind damage to homes. Much larger areas see storm surges and flooding. Flooding can become a combined issue of runoff from heavy rainfalls and backing up of coastal rivers as storm surge blocks their estuaries.

If Ireland did have regular landfalling hurricanes on the same scale as the eastern U.S., based somewhat on New England and/or eastern Canada's history with them, the issues would be somewhat muted because most coastal regions are somewhat elevated if not hilly, unlike the large expanses of almost flat coastal terrain in the southern U.S. and as you say, home construction standards are generally higher in the northern climates.

However, I would suggest that the "big wind" event in January 1839 seems to have hit about at the intensity of a cat-2 or cat-3 hurricane so that might provide a bit of a comparison. The storm that hit southeast England in October 1987 was barely at cat-1 hurricane intensity, the Daniel Defoe storm of 1703 maybe about a cat-1/2 borderline. Some well-known more recent windstorms may have peaked around cat-1 intensity in a few locations but were generally at strong TS levels for most. Compare with Isaac yesterday, some oil platforms were reporting 6-9 hours of 60 knot winds gusting to 90, while surface stations on land (marsh) had 45 knots gusting to 70, possibly a bit higher. Those numbers are near the high end of what we have seen in similarly exposed locations from recent autumn or winter storms in Ireland. But if a 12-foot storm surge hit western Ireland, it would be much less of an issue than in southern Louisiana where 90% of the terrain is at or just above sea level (or even below and behind protective barriers).

If MT doesn't mind, his post on the other thread answered your question

ophelia75

Just reading the book The Night Of The Big Wind by Peter Cribbin. A great read. The wind was so fierce, salt could be tasted on the walls of Roscommon ( 40 miles inland). Trees were uprooted and flung away like pollen through an engine. However, there are no stats available or ways of comparison to something we would recognise today. As it was 1839, one is inclined to think that dwellings were not up to the might of this storm. Therefore, would this storm be as big if it was to hit today.
There is a lot of emphasis on superstition and religious belief in the book (ie- many thought at the time that it was significant that the storm struck on the Feast of the Epiphany. (little Christmas)

Ahorseofaman

ophelia75 wrote: »

salt could be tasted on the walls of Roscommon ( 40 miles inland).

thanks for that mental picture of irish peasants wandering around Roscommon
licking walls.:D

M.T. Cranium

There are some sketchy weather maps available and the suggestion is that this was a rapidly deepening low that may have reached central pressures around 930 mbs somewhere north of Donegal as it tracked towards northern Scotland. I think it was probably just a stronger version of many storms we have tracked here in the past few years, in fact far stronger. Damage to structures indicated winds that gusted over 100 mph and a storm surge also suggested very strong winds as well as the low pressure values.

This is very subjective but it seems to me that a worst case windstorm for Ireland could be even stronger than 1839, and a lot stronger than anything seen in recent decades. You could imagine a low reaching 930-935 mbs with wind gusts to 120 knots, and the general thinking seems to be that if ocean temperatures continue to rise slowly due to climate change, this becomes more possible although conversely, there is also a correlation between colder climate regimes and strong wind events (but perhaps displaced away from mid-winter which would get into more blocking and less stormy patterns).

I really don't think the severity of the 1839 storm had much if anything to do with building standards prevalent in those times. The same storm run again this winter would do an enormous amount of damage to modern buildings and infra-structure. The same goes for other such storms like the 1703 "Daniel Defoe" storm in southern England. The damage to shipping might be less significant but there was a 3-metre storm surge around Bristol and many buildings that lost their roofs, both situations would be similar despite stronger building techniques, because there are now many thousands more targets and we saw in Jan 1990 how close to the limit for building collapse a relatively weak storm can be, if we added 50% or more to those winds, imagine the damage that might result -- same goes for recent major windstorms in Ireland.

I also wonder if Debbie (1961) was a 100-year return tropical event for Ireland, or longer -- probably in the 200-500 year range, but here again, more frequent such events are predicted as a result of warmer waters, more active seasons, etc. The frequency of North Atlantic tropical systems seems to have increased by almost 50% in recent decades, not all of this can be attributable to better reporting through technology.

Anyway, imagine the overload on boards.ie weather forum if a 120-knot wind gust appeared in an outlook forecast, we had that phantom storm last December that never materialized but the models seem ready for one.

Cork boy 55

M.T. Cranium wrote: »

There are some sketchy weather maps available and the suggestion is that this was a rapidly deepening low that may have reached central pressures around 930 mbs somewhere north of Donegal as it tracked towards northern Scotland. I think it was probably just a stronger version of many storms we have tracked here in the past few years, in fact far stronger. Damage to structures indicated winds that gusted over 100 mph and a storm surge also suggested very strong winds as well as the low pressure values.

This is very subjective but it seems to me that a worst case windstorm for Ireland could be even stronger than 1839, and a lot stronger than anything seen in recent decades. You could imagine a low reaching 930-935 mbs with wind gusts to 120 knots, and the general thinking seems to be that if ocean temperatures continue to rise slowly due to climate change, this becomes more possible although conversely, there is also a correlation between colder climate regimes and strong wind events (but perhaps displaced away from mid-winter which would get into more blocking and less stormy patterns).

I really don't think the severity of the 1839 storm had much if anything to do with building standards prevalent in those times. The same storm run again this winter would do an enormous amount of damage to modern buildings and infra-structure. The same goes for other such storms like the 1703 "Daniel Defoe" storm in southern England. The damage to shipping might be less significant but there was a 3-metre storm surge around Bristol and many buildings that lost their roofs, both situations would be similar despite stronger building techniques, because there are now many thousands more targets and we saw in Jan 1990 how close to the limit for building collapse a relatively weak storm can be, if we added 50% or more to those winds, imagine the damage that might result -- same goes for recent major windstorms in Ireland.

I also wonder if Debbie (1961) was a 100-year return tropical event for Ireland, or longer -- probably in the 200-500 year range, but here again, more frequent such events are predicted as a result of warmer waters, more active seasons, etc. The frequency of North Atlantic tropical systems seems to have increased by almost 50% in recent decades, not all of this can be attributable to better reporting through technology.

Anyway, imagine the overload on boards.ie weather forum if a 120-knot wind gust appeared in an outlook forecast, we had that phantom storm last December that never materialized but the models seem ready for one.

Interesting stuff,
I think it is fair to say because such "Worst case" storms have not happened in extended living memory or in the history of the state.
That people and state planning/awareness of the potential
of such an event are low to say the least.

To pick another recent example
The Haiti earthquake of 2010
The population appeared to be completely earthquake unaware in terms of their planning and building codes, Perpetration and memory of earthquakes did not seem to be part of the populations culture and governance,
As it was the first earthquake to hit the capital in over 200 years and first major one to hit Haiti in 150 years.
I am not an expert on Haiti BTW ( I saw a documentary in which a scientist said that with just 15% more cost most of Haiti's buildings could have been "Life safe" It just sprang to mind the shock of the population at this 1 in 200 year event

I fear in the future we could find yourselves with a lot of shock and regret regarding Ireland's housing standards, emergency planning and infrastructure standards after the one-200 year "big one".

One effect of climate change appears to be "Global weather weirding" so the order of probability of severe worst case storms was increased IMO.

maquiladora

There have been several other catastrophic windstorms that hit Ireland in the past. Less and less records the further you go back, but there are examples of something really severe about every couple of hundred years.

A famous one that affected Ireland and several other countries was the Grote Mandrenke ( St. Mary's Wind / St. Maury's Wind) of 1362.

Few great weather events in British history were as devastating as the "Grote Mandrenke", the great drowning of men, which took place in mid January 1362. A huge south-westerly gale originating in the Atlantic Ocean swept across Ireland, Britain, the Low Countries, and northern Germany, causing at least 25,000 deaths.

The first warning of the storm came from Ireland, where homes and buildings in Dublin were devastated by the high winds. Next to experience the brunt of the storm was southern England, where thousands of trees were blown down.
Massive damage was caused to the few high buildings, notably churches, and many spires or towers were destroyed. Most famously, the wooden spire of Norwich Cathedral fell through its roof.

Worse was to come. As the storm reached the North Sea, it combined with high tides to produce the phenomenon most feared by coastal communities, a storm surge.

Ports all along the east coast of England, and across the North Sea in the Netherlands, Germany and Denmark, were destroyed, as the power of the wind and waters changed the shape of the coastline.

http://www.guardian.co.uk/news/2011/jan/20/weatherwatch-grote-mandrenke

Medieval events such as St Maury’s wind of 15th January 1362 for example are recorded as:

“a vehement wind which shook and threw to the ground the steeples, chimneys and
other higher buildings, trees beyond number and divers belfries and the bell tower
of the Friars’ Preachers in Dublin.”

http://78.137.164.74/~geograph/irishgeography/v33-1/wind.pdf

It's inevitable we'll get hit again with something similar. The only question is will it be in our lifetime or not.

branie

There's an interesting article about it in this week's Ireland's Own

up for anything

The 2nd January, 1976 - Capella Storm is always forgotten. It was a surprise storm.

I remember it particularly well because my niece was born in Cork on that day and my mother and I went down to visit my sister and see the new baby. We drove back to Kilkenny that evening without realising how bad the storm was. The road back was a nightmare of falling trees, telephone/ESB poles with wires sparking on the road. My mother must have had nerves of steel although she says it was more a matter of not having the cash to pull into a B&B along the way.

nuac

The night of the Big Wind still lives on in folklore. It was also a convenient way of claiming the OAP by claiming to have been born before it.

In the village in which one of my grandfathers was born my cousins could tell me which houses stood the wind and which were damaged. People had to seek shelter in the undamaged houses

I remember Debbie in Sept 1961. Was just finishing exams in UCG. Trees in college grounds and around Galway blown over. Out in Salthill blocks of the promenade were broken off by waves and thrown up on the main road. Some as big as a small car. Recall seing the broken iron ( or steel ) reinforcing rods sticking out. Extensive flooding in Salthill and also in Galway itself - halfway up Dominick St.

road_high

up for anything wrote: »

The 2nd January, 1976 - Capella Storm is always forgotten. It was a surprise storm.

I remember it particularly well because my niece was born in Cork on that day and my mother and I went down to visit my sister and see the new baby. We drove back to Kilkenny that evening without realising how bad the storm was. The road back was a nightmare of falling trees, telephone/ESB poles with wires sparking on the road. My mother must have had nerves of steel although she says it was more a matter of not having the cash to pull into a B&B along the way.

Was that the old road via Clonmel or the Urlingford way?

Says 5 people died in that storm, no indicatiion of the circumstances. That alone must make it worse than any we've had lately (thankfully).

up for anything

I seem to remember that we went by Clonmel although Urlingford would have made more sense as we lived in a village northwest of Kilkenny city. I think my mother made a judgement call on the roads around the village being flooded especially on the lower lying Urlingford side. I must ask her. I do remember most of the scary stuff taking place on the main roads though.

ardmacha

At least in hilly areas, people in the 19th century often built in relatively sheltered locations. Such houses have a crap mobile signal, but don't get the worst of the wind. The modern trend is to build the bungalow on top of the hill to get the view and these may well suffer more if a megastorm does come.

Oneiric 3

nuac wrote: »

I remember Debbie in Sept 1961. Was just finishing exams in UCG. Trees in college grounds and around Galway blown over. Out in Salthill blocks of the promenade were broken off by waves and thrown up on the main road. Some as big as a small car. Recall seing the broken iron ( or steel ) reinforcing rods sticking out. Extensive flooding in Salthill and also in Galway itself - halfway up Dominick St.

I feel like that spoof Deejay in 'The Savage Eye', but could you describe what the wind was like during Debbie? This is one storm I would have loved to experienced in the actual. If only time machines existed..