Blocking ambulances?

subway

Saw this on the way home from work the other day.
just thought id post up to get some opinions.

the road in question is 3 lanes wide at a particular junction,
ie, extra lane for drivers turning right off the main road onto the adjoing road on a T juction.

so an ambulnace comes up the road in the side of the road that has 2 lanes,
sirens blaring the whole way, fairly fast, and to me it seems pretty serious.
obviously does to every other motorist on the road.

im stopped at a red light going in the opposite direction of the ambulnace, as are the cars in the lanes with the same direction as the ambulance.
watching the ambulnace come towards me as the 2 lanes split down the middle with cars mounting the kerb and crossing the white line to make room for it.
that is, until they got to the car right at the front of the queue,
the driver made absolutely no effor to move out of the ambulnaces way,
save to move a few feet closer to the red light.
he looked up at the light a few times to see if it was green,
evntually moving forward and to the side when the lights changed.

i was pretty pissed off by the drivers behaviour say the least,
as were the ambulance drivers who were sounding the horn/flashing lights, everything to get this guy to budge 1 yard over thewhite lineand let them past.

just wanted to get that off my chest as despite every other exampe of inconsiderate driving i see on the road,
ive never seen anyone be that inconsiderate to what very well may be someone elses life on the line.

subway

Töpher

:eek: Imagine being the guys driving the ambulance, if I was one of them I'd be wanting to hop out and push the car out of the way!

BrianD3

Nothing surprise me about Irish driver behaviour anymore. The twat in question may have been drunk, on his mobile or else just a dopey idiot not paying attention. Or it could have been some nutcase out to prove a point with an "I'm not legally obliged to pull in for a ambulance" type of attitude.

No matter what the reason he/she deserves a wheelbrace across the face

subway

im going for the last option,
i was at the front of my queue and he was clearly aware of the ambo' behind him,
mobile phone and pulled off safely after the ambulance finally got past him.

Gandhi

One day I was sitting in a line of cars stopped at a red light. The sound of sirens is coming from behind us so everyone pulls over to the side to let a fire engine go past.

This one genius at the back of the line decides he'll be a rock star and pull out right after the fire engine, and follow it past the line of pulled-over traffic, thus leapfrogging to the front of the queue.

Problem was, he forgot to look to make sure there was not another fire engine responding to the same fire right behind the first one. There's this almighty whack as the forty-ton fire engine rips the side panels off his car. Then the fire engine had to stop as the cops were called and the mess sorted out. I passed by the same junction again twenty minutes later and the whole melee was still going on.

AMurphy

subway wrote:

....
just wanted to get that off my chest as despite every other exampe of inconsiderate driving i see on the road,
ive never seen anyone be that inconsiderate to what very well may be someone elses life on the line.

subway

Seen it here a few times also. I think some drivers have no idea how to get out of the way or get confused or blinded by the lights....or some such brain seizure, cause even when the guy got on the speaker telling them to move left or right, they still do not get out of the way, or do something stupid.

Not sure about your situation, but what I have observed here is; The engine will come up the wrong lane (against traffic) to the light, then cross back into the normal lane going through the light.... then out into the oncoming lane again further (50yds or so from the light), may be to prevent the confusion you may have witnessed. or it's an easier/better way to get about oncoming traffic at a light.

mike65

I think some people genuiely panic, "ohmygod what do i do now??????" mode.

Mike.

jayok

Kinda funny story I heard a good while ago about a Fire-Engine driver (don't know if true or not) He'd been driving the engine for years and one day he simply 'snapped' with drivers that wouldn't get out of his way. So what did he do in his 600hp machine????

Excusing me coming through, let me just push you out of the way, I'm sorry did I shove you out of the way? He totalled six cars before the other firemen onboard managed to get him to stop. Didn't lose his job though as pleaded a mental breakdown. He got a deskjob in the fire-service after that!

Sorry I don't have any more specifics, I believe it was in the US and I only remember thinking: "Good Man!"

Back to Topic - no driver in Ireland is under any legal obligation to let any emergency service pass. It is simply a courtesy to other drivers. In the US, I believe you can be prosecuted, but I don't think here.

To the OP - the driver who wouldn't move, why legally the driver didn't have to, he was still a knob. Imagine YOU or someone you loved were in the back of the ambulance clinging on for dear life needing a A&E crash team and you died en route because some muppet wouldn't get out of the way. I can understand why you're pissed off.

subway

possibly a bit of both what mike and amurphy have said.

usually taking the wrong [contra flow] lane is the easiest option,
but in this case traffic was already building up there,
red lights on the main road and green for the adjoing road.
poor visibility and sound travel would contirubute to drivers on that road not realising how close the emergency vehicle was.

the 3 drivers that came out blocked the lane but worked in conjucntion with the drivers in the opposite lane to create space.

its hard to explin but the front driver in the middle lane could not physicaly drive any further.
the guy on the inside blocking had other people in the car and must have been mid 30 - 40 yrs old.
nice car too.
cant remember make but 03 or 04 saloon car so doubtful it was his first time seeing an ambulance.

anyway im drunk now and wandering by the pc to reply.
adios

5500

Actually has anyone ever seen firebrigades and ambulances driving the wrong way down the belgard road(ie towards oncoming cars) when the traffic is heavy?Seems to happen all the time when the traffic is backed up abit but you see people jamming on in shock at a big red engine coming towards them!

AMurphy

mike65 wrote:

I think some people genuiely panic, "ohmygod what do i do now??????" mode.

Mike.

Something along those lines. "Deer in the headlamps".

watsgone

Some people are just ignorant, I had been in the back of ambulances while they are transporting patients and some people on a wide road, with a fine hard shoulder(no potholes etc) just do'nt bother pulling in.

No respect or regard for human life

RuggieBear

could be worse.

my father is a GP and the odd time on a house call he has had to call an emergency ambulance to get a patient to hospital quickly...once while riding with a heart attack patient in the back, the ambulance was rammed a few times by joy riders:eek:

jayok

RuggieBear wrote:

could be worse.

my father is a GP and the odd time on a house call he has had to call an emergency ambulance to get a patient to hospital quickly...once while riding with a heart attack patient in the back, the ambulance was rammed a few times by joy riders:eek:

:eek: :eek: :eek: :eek: Feckin' shlits... this is incredible.

Looks like we are going to have to fit Ambulances with some James Bond style surface to surface missiles

murphaph

BrianD3 wrote:

No matter what the reason he/she deserves a wheelbrace across the face

Ouch, you'd need an ambulance after that!

Litcagral

As a previous poster has said, one is not legally obliged to pull over for an ambulance or fire engine but naturally most will do so as a matter of courtesy. AFAIK they are subject to the same rules of the road as anyone else. If an ambulance driver breaks a red light, he does so at his own personal risk. I think it is a different matter for the Gardai - you are obliged to get out of their way. Several years ago, I damaged the alloys on my car when forced to mount the roundabout at Dublin airport to allow Tony Blair's convoy pass. When I refused to initially, I was threatened with arrest by a motorcycle cop.

Our man in Havana

Under what charge?

Litcagral

Bond-007 wrote:

Under what charge?

He said something about infringing security. He was with a large group of advance Garda motorcycle outriders who were clearing a path for Blair. (I didn't know who it was for until he passed by). The road was extremely congested at the time (pre M1 extention) and they appeared to be under duress. Their manner was extremly aggressive and confrontational and not the attitude that I am accustomed to from the Gardai. Most other drivers at the scene were forced to do the same.

Borzoi

Litcagral wrote:

As a previous poster has said, one is not legally obliged to pull over for an ambulance or fire engine but naturally most will do so as a matter of courtesy..

True, true.

Litcagral wrote:

AFAIK they are subject to the same rules of the road as anyone else. .

That used to be the case, but the law, was changed a few years back to exempt them from some legislation

Litcagral wrote:

If an ambulance driver breaks a red light, he does so at his own personal risk. .

His own risk of injury sure - and the Dublin Fire Brigade amulances are made from cardboard so it's a possiblity - but very low risk of any sort of prosecution. I think that on the two occasions that my brother had an incident while driving for the DFB, the cops threatened to prosecute the car driver for 'undue care and attention';)

Litcagral

Thanks for clarifying that.

ciarsd

Borzoi wrote:

His own risk of injury sure - and the Dublin Fire Brigade amulances are made from cardboard so it's a possiblity

fibre-glass

the condition of the fleet is pretty bad but getting better. At least they're not accepting ex.UK fleet now and are finally being given some budget to get their own.

Back to topic... blocking an appliance on a call is not an offence legally, but maybe it is morally.

watsgone

RuggieBear wrote:

could be worse.

my father is a GP and the odd time on a house call he has had to call an emergency ambulance to get a patient to hospital quickly...once while riding with a heart attack patient in the back, the ambulance was rammed a few times by joy riders:eek:

Sad to say I have heard of that before, it seems that emergency crews are now a new choice target for attack.

Do the little f*ckers realise they could have blowed themselves sky high, ramming a ambulance, carrying oxygen which is highly flamable and a cylinder can act as a missle.

Some people

Capt'n Midnight

Part of the problem is that modern cars are too soundproofed. A lot of people simply don't hear the sirens because they have the radio too loud. Also they aren't paying attention when they do. I usually roll down the window a tad if I can't see the vehicle, to get a better idea of where the noise is coming from.

Cars are too comfy. You are not supposed to be lulled into a relaxed state. Cars are modelled on your living room, radio , AC , plushness, tinted windows, warmth etc. It's not like those old straight back chairs you get in school that tend to keep you awake and alert.

N_Raid

Borzoi wrote:

His own risk of injury sure - and the Dublin Fire Brigade amulances are made from cardboard so it's a possiblity - but very low risk of any sort of prosecution. I think that on the two occasions that my brother had an incident while driving for the DFB, the cops threatened to prosecute the car driver for 'undue care and attention';)

Yeah no court in the land is gonna convict an EMT for speeding or dangerous driving in an ambulance - as long as it's justified and they didn't cause an accident or anything. I know of one driver who, while speeding through Navan town at rush hour, was followed all the way to Our Lady's in Navan by a Garda and when he got out to unload the trolley was told he "Better have a fu<king good reason for that." He did of course and the Garda was soon on his merry way when he saw the condition of the patient in the back. So they're in no way above the law but it's just common (or maybe not so common any more) decency to get the hell out of the way

ramming a ambulance, carrying oxygen which is highly flamable and a cylinder can act as a missle.

I'm not normally the pedantic type but the oxygen cylinder can act as a missile yeah but the oxygen itself isn't flammable. It supports combustion very well though everything else would burn much better than usual.

stevenmu

N_Raid wrote:

I'm not normally the pedantic type but the oxygen cylinder can act as a missile yeah but the oxygen itself isn't flammable. It supports combustion very well though everything else would burn much better than usual.

Seeing as you got pedantic first You obviously don't remember in the run up to hurrican Rita when a bus evacuating elderly patients caught on fire causing the oxygen tanks to explode, linky

watsgone

N_Raid wrote:

I'm not normally the pedantic type but the oxygen cylinder can act as a missile yeah but the oxygen itself isn't flammable. It supports combustion very well though everything else would burn much better than usual.

Oh believe me it is flamable it also says so on the cylinder.

Alun

watsgone wrote:

Oh believe me it is flamable it also says so on the cylinder.

I can believe there may be a warning on the cylinder to avoid naked flames or the like, but that doesn't mean that the oxygen itself is flammable but that if it was released in the area of something that was burning already it would make whatever it was burn much (very, very much!) more vigorously. Oxygen does not burn, it's an oxidant

testicle

Fire needs Oxygen, Fuel, Heat and a continuous chain reaction. oxygen itself does not burn.

RuggieBear

Oh for god sake.....:D

Type 17

Litcagral wrote:

...they appeared to be under duress. Their manner was extremly aggressive and confrontational...

So, another normal day for the motorcycle cops...

Not being smart, but I have yet to hear a story of how a Dublin motorcycle cop interacted with a member of the public, and wasn't "extremely aggressive and confrontational". (A few years ago, my wife was pulled over and sworn at for being in the wrong lane(!), and came home in tears...)

jayok

Ok, I'll post one.

A good few years ago (1998) while come home late from work, I was going straight through a set of traffc lights and when I glanced at them I thought I saw green. Went straight through them. Now the lights were actually green, but only for the right-filter lane. See the problem?

On the way through breaking the Red-Light I had a near miss with on-coming car (who had the green and right of way). I braked, blew the car horn and thinking "What a muppet!". I was reflecting on this "near-miss" as I continued my journey, next thing I spotted the blue-flashing in my mirror I pulled over and a Motocycle Garda pull-up along side me. He explained to me, very nicely, that I broke the red-light. Well my face dropped. I apologised and said I really though it was green. He asked if I was ok and to be more careful of the filter lights in future. He wish me well and went off on his way!

MrPudding

watsgone wrote:

Oh believe me it is flamable it also says so on the cylinder.

Infoplease wrote:

Oxygen is a colorless, odorless, tasteless gas; it is the first member of group VIa of the periodic table. It is denser than air and only slightly soluble in water. A poor conductor of heat and electricity, oxygen supports combustion but does not burn.

From : http://www.infoplease.com/ce6/sci/A0860183.html

Back on topic.

Capt'n Midnight wrote:

Part of the problem is that modern cars are too soundproofed. A lot of people simply don't hear the sirens because they have the radio too loud. Also they aren't paying attention when they do. I usually roll down the window a tad if I can't see the vehicle, to get a better idea of where the noise is coming from.

Does anyone remember Tommorws World on BBC? I remember they had a story on this problem years ago. It seems that it is actually almost inpossible for humans to tell what direction a normal siren is coming from. They showed an experimental siren was like a normal siren bit had a burst of white noise every few seconds. The difference is amazing. Humans can instantly identify the direction white noise is coming from. They expected it to be incorporated into sirens by now. I haven't heard anything more about it.

Another interesting (for some ) property of white noise is it is very hard to ignore. Another cool use of it was for security cameras. If someone was going to rob a shop they would enter it with their head down so the door camera would not catch their face. During an experiment they put a speaker above the camera, when the door was opened a burst of white noise would come from the speaker. Even when told not to look at the camera and that there would be a noise no one was able to prevent themselves from looking at the camera.

Actually, maybe that is why it is not being used in sirens. Too many people trying to look at the source of the noise instead of where they are going.

MrP

Victor

BrianD3 wrote:

"I'm not legally obliged to pull in for a ambulance"

Erm, aren't you meant to give way to all emergency vehicles?

'undue care and attention'

Don't you mean 'without due care and attention'

Litcagral wrote:

As a previous poster has said, one is not legally obliged to pull over for an ambulance or fire engine but naturally most will do so as a matter of courtesy. AFAIK they are subject to the same rules of the road as anyone else. If an ambulance driver breaks a red light, he does so at his own personal risk.

There was a case where an ambulance, lights flashing and sirens blaring, ran a red light. Some muppet was coming the other way and they crashed. Muppet was found 80% responsible for not observing the ambulance. Ambulance was 20% responsible for not heeding other traffic.

stevenmu wrote:

Seeing as you got pedantic first You obviously don't remember in the run up to hurrican Rita when a bus evacuating elderly patients caught on fire causing the oxygen tanks to explode, linky

Apparently the bus was also leaking brake fluid.

watsgone wrote:

Oh believe me it is flamable it also says so on the cylinder.

Oxygen is what burns other things. Put a lit cigarette into a stream of oxygen and watch it flamce and burn out very quickly.

Squirrel

Victor wrote:

Erm, aren't you meant to give way to all emergency vehicles?

No, the only vehicle's you're legally obliged to pull in for are Army ones. They're also the only group who can't get prosecuted or sued for crashing while breaking traffic laws, an Ambulance, Police or Firetruck driver can. It's about protecting the country from invasion.

Kinda* pointless really





*Extremely

watsgone

MrPudding wrote:

From : http://www.infoplease.com/ce6/sci/A0860183.html

Sorry, my mistake obvoiusly, but if the cylinder was damaged in a crash and a fire start which can happen with all the equipment they carry, I wouldnt want to be around.

Though back to the point,

So you are not "legally" obliged to pull in, I think that says a lot about ireland today.
What I mean is before people would never say that or care either, they would pull in if they could safety out of conscience

Squirrel

Apparently only 70% of people pull in for an Ambulance, 60% for a Firetruck, and less than 50% for a squad car. I heard this through word of mouth, so hope these were highly exaggerated. I mean, 30% wouldn't pull over for an Ambulance :mad:

testicle

Squirrel wrote:

No, the only vehicle's you're legally obliged to pull in for are Army ones. They're also the only group who can't get prosecuted or sued for crashing while breaking traffic laws, an Ambulance, Police or Firetruck driver can. It's about protecting the country from invasion.

Kinda* pointless really





*Extremely

Let's dispel this rumour immediately. It is 100% not true.

Squirrel

testicle wrote:

Let's dispel this rumour immediately. It is 100% not true.

That's grand. I was told this off a soldier. My CSPE teacher also mentioned about the army not being prosecuted, I wasn't sure about the pulling over one

johnnyrotten

Army personnel don't drive on their own license. They use a military license.
FireFighters/EMTs/Paramedics/Gardai all drive on their own license, therefore are liable to all the rigours of the law and their own personal insurance.
Drivers are not obliged to move for any other road user including Fire/Ambo/Gardai/Defence Forces/Customs.
It can be very frustrating to see the whole line of traffic moving out of the way only to see the Ambulance held up by one person. Most people don't do this on purpose but normally they can't hear , and don't use their mirrors:mad: or are afraid to take any evasive action to help

dingding

Used to travel a lot on the N11 between Bray and Dublin a lot before the new bypass was built. Several times I saw a ambulance at loughlinstown hospital trying to get to the scene of an emergency and the traffic would not let it out.

Could not believe it

ballooba

Type 17 wrote:

Not being smart, but I have yet to hear a story of how a Dublin motorcycle cop interacted with a member of the public, and wasn't "extremely aggressive and confrontational". (A few years ago, my wife was pulled over and sworn at for being in the wrong lane(!), and came home in tears...)

I dealt with a female motorcycle cop in Ranelagh the other day. She was perfectly polite.

She asked me to move on because she thought I was parked on Ranelagh Road. I was actually trying to turn left down the alley before Irish School of Motoring. Nonetheless she was actually just as polite as any other Garda.

crosstownk

testicle wrote:

Fire needs Oxygen, Fuel, Heat and a continuous chain reaction. oxygen itself does not burn.

Correct. But it might as well be flamable because if it is released on a fire with adequate fuel it will accelerate the fire to a serious extent. Presumably, this is why an oxygen cylinder carries fire warnings.

Seth Brundle

johnnyrotten wrote:

FireFighters/EMTs/Paramedics/Gardai all drive on their own license, therefore are liable to all the rigours of the law and their own personal insurance.
Drivers are not obliged to move for any other road user including Fire/Ambo/Gardai/Defence Forces/Customs.

It is an offence to not follow the instructions of a garda when driving. If the garda tells you to meve then you must move.
Im not sure what the reference to personal insurance is about.

fletch

Anybody know why the ambulance heading to the crash on the M50 at Firhouse this morning didn't use the hard shoulder but instead drove down the centre of the two lanes? In case it was iced over I'm guessing? Just thought it was strange.