PSNI n00b wears old IRA medal

flogen

Interesting enough story, but the Unionists seem to be missing the point:
http://www.rte.ie/news/2006/0106/police.html

Unionist politicians in Northern Ireland have reacted angrily to the news that a new police recruit wore a medal honouring the old IRA at a passing out parade.

A picture of the PSNI officer wearing the medal was published in last month's Police Gazette.

The medal, known as the Black and Tan medal, was issued in 1941 by the then Government to honour those who had fought in the War of Independence.

I mean, it was the old IRA, the ones that actually fought for a reason. The medal was given by the Irish government to honour those who help Ireland gain independence, the Unionists should probably relax a little and realise it isn't a sign of support with the new IRA, which is very different organisations, as much as it would like to be just as honourable.

Sponge Bob

flogen wrote:

I mean, it was the old IRA, the ones that actually fought for a reason.

as did every other IRA, the issue is whether we agree the reason was worth all the fighting .

have Mary McAleese and Bertie signed off yet on that 'new' 'old' IRA campaign medal that Gerry Adams asked them for as part of the disarmanent deal or is that still stuck in the design phase ??????

the Unionists wil have a field day if a PSNI recruit shows up wearing that campaign medal .

Mighty_Mouse

I mean, it was the old IRA, the ones that actually fought for a reason.

Differentiating from the more recent IRA in your opinion of course.

The medal was given by the Irish government to honour those who help Ireland gain independence

what were the ira 1960-2005 fighting for again?

The point is I can understand why unionists got upset. I dont think the police force should be in anyway political. Therefore the medal gotta go.

Sponge Bob

Mighty_Mouse wrote:

Differentiating from the more recent IRA in your opinion of course.what were the ira 1960-2005 fighting for again?

the 1969-2005 IRA actually , lets not go there shall we.

The point is I can understand why unionists got upset. I dont think the police force should be in anyway political. Therefore the medal gotta go.

all campaign medals must therefore go, former soldiers are allowed to wear them at certain times if they join the police thereafter , in the UK that is . Dunno if they may wear their parents or grandparents medals which is what must have happened there.

flogen

I don't think it was political, he was wearing a medal passed down to him by his family, and was honouring those that have gone before him. Nothing in Northern Ireland is totally bereft of politics anyway.

And no, it's not whether I agree with what they're fighting for its whether I can back the way they fight for it.

Stabshauptmann

I would have thought it positive PR for the PSNI. Past behind us, building a brighter future together, could be very good for marketing.
Unionists that went ape over this obviously still feel its a protestant police for a protestant people [sic]

Mighty_Mouse

I don't think it was political, he was wearing a medal passed down to him by his family, and was honouring those that have gone before him

How can an IRA medal not be an political medal!!:eek:

Run that by me again!

all campaign medals must therefore go, former soldiers are allowed to wear them at certain times if they join the police thereafter

Yep! Its either one or the other. Either all medals allowed.......which would be a ridicolous situation to allow or no medals.

I certainly wouldnt fancy wearing an IRA badge responding to a crime in portadown or east belfast!

Sponge Bob

Mighty_Mouse wrote:

How can an IRA medal not be an political medal!!:eek:

Well 'that' IRA never fought the RUC or the PSNI , only the old RIC .

Run that by me again!Yep! Its either one or the other. Either all medals allowed.......which would be a ridicolous situation to allow or no medals.

Hmm, they are only allowed IIRC with parade dress uniforms not with normal police casual combat gear .

I certainly wouldnt fancy wearing an IRA badge responding to a crime in portadown or east belfast!

wait till the new medal is struck :eek:

flogen

Mighty_Mouse wrote:

How can an IRA medal not be an political medal!!:eek:

Well it's obviously saying that he's a republican, but that's not against any rules. The old IRA that got those medals are supported by all political parties in the Republic of Ireland, so it's just as good as his Dad having a medal from the modern Irish army. It's not going against anything in modern Northern Ireland.

I certainly wouldnt fancy wearing an IRA badge responding to a crime in portadown or east belfast!

I don't think he'll be wearing it on duty, and if he does that's a different issue and it's his problem

Nuttzz

The "old IRA" medal is a medal issued by the Irish Government, I dont see how/why someone as member of a British Police force would want to wear a medal issued from another country. Could a Garda were their grandfathers british army service medals?

flogen

Nuttzz wrote:

The "old IRA" medal is a medal issued by the Irish Government, I dont see how/why someone as member of a British Police force would want to wear a medal issued from another country. Could a Garda were their grandfathers british army service medals?

Why not? It's part of that persons heritige, and he or she would be showing pride in it. I'm not sure what the Gardai rule about medals is in general, but I would have no problem personally with a Garda wearing his grandfathers British army medal, it's his choice.
Now that the Gardai are actively recruiting foreign nationals, would you mind one of them wearing their father or grandfathers army medal from Eastern Europe, Africa, Asia etc.?

Sponge Bob

Wait till the local guard shows up in the squad car with an Iron Cross

flogen

they can wear whatever medals they want as far as I'm concerned, once they do their job and remain impartial.

Again, however, I don't think they will wear it on duty, this was a passing out parade.

As for the new IRA medal, won't happen. If it does I'll be the first to protest it.

Elmo

Perhaps one of the older RUC men will take out there medal for the most nationalists hit over the head with a baton.

Nuttzz

flogen wrote:

Why not? It's part of that persons heritige, and he or she would be showing pride in it. I'm not sure what the Gardai rule about medals is in general, but I would have no problem personally with a Garda wearing his grandfathers British army medal, it's his choice.
Now that the Gardai are actively recruiting foreign nationals, would you mind one of them wearing their father or grandfathers army medal from Eastern Europe, Africa, Asia etc.?

I think that medals should only be worn by the person they were awarded to and no body else, I didnt earn my grandfathers emergency service medal so I wouldnt wear it (if I was in a uniformed service).

murphaph

Mighty_Mouse wrote:

what were the ira 1960-2005 fighting for again?

Drug dealing turf?

Elmo

Originally Posted by Mighty_Mouse
what were the ira 1960-2005 fighting for again?

Note that during the years 1937 to 1960 the IRA bearly existed. That was until Catholics in the North started asking for there rights. While I do not like the way the IRA went about getting that respect they did have some goals and it wasn't just about a United Ireland it was about getting respect in a Democratic Society where everyone was entitled to a vote and the respect of others in that community. Catholics and Nationalists did not receive that respect from their fellow Ulster Men.

If you respect everyone then the extremist won't have power, but when extremist hold power then the other side starts to stand up to them.

We cann't turn our back on what a Government did to their people in Northern Ireland and that was to divided them into Nationist and Unionist.

Hagar

Nuttzz wrote:

I think that medals should only be worn by the person they were awarded to and no body else, I didnt earn my grandfathers emergency service medal so I wouldnt wear it (if I was in a uniformed service).

Nail on head. Why would anyone wear a medal that wasn't awarded to them?

A Dub in Glasgo

It does seem strange that people wear medals when they had f-all to do with it. I thought the PSNI managed to persuade someone who is quite old to join them.

flogen

Nuttzz wrote:

I think that medals should only be worn by the person they were awarded to and no body else, I didnt earn my grandfathers emergency service medal so I wouldnt wear it (if I was in a uniformed service).

It's not something I would do either, it doesn't seem like a fitting tribute to me. However some people feel it is the best way to show respect to those gone, and perhaps to show the honour in your family and highlight how you're carrying on the tradition.
I think my granda was in the army for a brief period of time (could be wrong though, never asked much about it and it could have been no more than a good story to tell the kids), but I can think of so many better ways to remember him, and better ways to honour him. For others, especially ones that lost relatives they only knew as soldiers in war, they have little else.
Different strokes etc.

Manic Moran

I've been asking around on this, and it appears that wearing up to two generations previously is a fairly common policy in a lot of militaries around the world. I think it's a nice tip of the hat. 'Ancestral' awards are worn on the opposite side of the uniform to one's own earned awards, so there is no possibility of anyone mistaking the wearer for claiming to have earned it himself.

There are small little differences. For example, Canada has a rule that states that only non-serving people may wear medals awarded to next-of-kin. Foreign ancestral awards are almost always authorised, but Australia's rule states that the award must not have been awarded for service against a Commonwealth country, although apparently a Major Fazekas was reputed to have worn his (own) Iron Cross 2nd Class on his Australian uniform.

Mountain out of a molehill, I'm afraid.

NTM

Christ. This will prob delay return of power to stormount by about six months.
youd swear the unionists wanted the catholics to be repressed again.

Sponge Bob

Manic Moran wrote:

Mountain out of a molehill, I'm afraid.

Standard operating procedure in political unionism I'm afraid

Nuttzz

Sponge Bob wrote:

Standard operating procedure in political unionism I'm afraid

in norn iron more like it

Sand

Medals shouldnt have been worn. I dont think either side has the maturity to accept symbols of the other tradition yet, and in a policeforce that lives or dies by its neutral status any symbols other than PSNI itself are the root of dissent and anger on one side or the other. After all the Provos & Nationalists demanded the RUC be dissolved and its symbols removed, so theyre hardly all that more pragmatic when it comes to symbols.

Christ. This will prob delay return of power to stormount by about six months.

When youre talking about 10 years at least, whats another 6 months?

Manic Moran

You can argue that both ways. As the Police are supposed to be neutral, and representative of both sides, the display of heritage awards from both political camps can be said to be demonstrating inclusion.

Sorry, but if the local custom of both the Irish and the British services allows heritage awards, then there is no leg to stand on to complain about it.

NTM

Sand

You can argue that both ways. As the Police are supposed to be neutral, and representative of both sides, the display of heritage awards from both political camps can be said to be demonstrating inclusion.

Sorry, but if the local custom of both the Irish and the British services allows heritage awards, then there is no leg to stand on to complain about it.

NTM

Maybe in a more mature society, but NI politicians (and those who elect them by default) are infantile and tribalistic. Theyre unable to sit in the same room let alone tolerate each others symbols. The PSNI cant be associated with any side whatsover if theyre to succeed. I dont think Orange sashes or IRA medals should be permitted for the PSNI - maybe in 50-60 years if or when the situation has calmed down.

archdukefranz

I'd aggree with sand, that in that society, symbols are dangerous atm
however its nice to see republicans getting into the psni
it shows confidence is growing among the catholic community

Nuttzz

Sand wrote:

Maybe in a more mature society, but NI politicians (and those who elect them by default) are infantile and tribalistic. Theyre unable to sit in the same room let alone tolerate each others symbols. The PSNI cant be associated with any side whatsover if theyre to succeed. I dont think Orange sashes or IRA medals should be permitted for the PSNI - maybe in 50-60 years if or when the situation has calmed down.

agreed but in norn iron its a case of shoot them all and let god sort them out, they are such children up there.

I remember coolock donning the black flags for the hunger strikers, now ask any of the locals who bobby sands was....did dont know (so my father tells me who is a teacher in the area).

no one really gives a funk about any any except those who live in NI and the shinners...

flogen

Sand wrote:

Maybe in a more mature society, but NI politicians (and those who elect them by default) are infantile and tribalistic. Theyre unable to sit in the same room let alone tolerate each others symbols. The PSNI cant be associated with any side whatsover if theyre to succeed. I dont think Orange sashes or IRA medals should be permitted for the PSNI - maybe in 50-60 years if or when the situation has calmed down.

I see your point, and you're pretty much right, but a part of me would rather see the Northern politicians (all of them) cop onto themselves rather than change the accepted rules (in Ireland and Britain, anyway) to keep them happy in their bubbles.

14jake88

that man wore a medal of Irish freedom,the unionists must come to terms with the fact that they no longer live in an orange state and can no longer use the police force as a tool of the government.

Nuttzz

cormacs wrote:

i think this post really typifies the general feeling on this forum towards the north - iea not very realistic and pretty uneducated view (thats not a dig at the poster, its a dig at the post).

This is the main reason why NI threads go AWOL on here, and its reason enough not to discuss the north, considering the lack of understanding of the subject matter.

I understand what is going on in the North, and have no interest in seeing the bigotory up there down here. The problems of the north arent ours in the south