Intresting weapons evaulation from Iraq

Clare gunner

Posted on another board,but i thought might be of intrest;
The US army GI's in Iraq thumbs up and thumbs down for the following weapons;

Thumbs down
The 5.56 round.Overall thumbsdown,poor penetration of cinderblock walls common in Iraq,no sure kill with even multiple torso hits.

The 9mm round,again poor penetration and not a one shot one kill,although the Bretta M9 is praised as a reliable sidearm.

The M16 [5.56 NATO]in all configurations.Very prone to high dust and sand conditions,needs a cleaning at least three times a day to operate in combat conditions.

The FN SAW[5.56 NATO] squad automatic weapon.Regarded generally as a POS,inferior calibre,jams up easily in sandy conditions,has to be dissambeld partially to clear jams,and that in the middle of a firefight.

Thumbs up.
The AK.[7.62X39]Smart folks are aquiring AKs as secondary weapons.Rugged,fires all the time,and plentiful.One hit one kill

The old M1a1 /M14.[7.62 NATO]Being reissued in bulk,now with lighter and more modern kevlar stocks with pictanny rails & ACOG sights to SF units.Loved and wanted by all.

The Colt 1911 a1.[45ACP]Graunteed one shot one kill.THE handgun to be seen in Iraq with.Large amounts being requested from Grandfathers and fathers back in the US.

The FN GPMG. [Gimpy].[[7.62 NATO] Loved by all for it's reliability, and calibre lots are being dismounted from vechicles and being used as squad auto weapon.

Shotgun 12 gauge. Supply cant keep up with demand.Considerd the best weapon for house clearing work.Again huge demand for guns to be shipped from home.

civdef

This has been fairly well debunked on a lot of military forums, with people who served in Iraq indicating many of the points made are impossible, others outright wrong.

The consensus from people who were there is this was written by someone who wasn't.

Riggser

Clare gunner wrote:

Thumbs down
The 5.56 round.Overall thumbsdown,poor penetration of cinderblock walls common in Iraq,no sure kill with even multiple torso hits.

Not too sure about that statement. 5.56mm rounds are mainly carried by infantry soldiers because 1) you can carry more of it than 7.62mm and 2) they wound rather than kill causing disruption on the enemies part.

If you want to put a hole in the wall you get your support weapon or artillery to do it. 5.56mm is the norm for assault rifles these days.

chem

Just a quick point on the 5.56 ammo. I was on a local army range and made my way to havin a look about on the back drop. dug abit into the sand and found alot of the 5.56 heads.

I found that most of them seemed to have hit the bank side on instead of point first. Alot were flatened to the back and were very twisted (some rounds were nearly V shaped.

I then noticed there were alot of very small steel cones about and just wondered if these were steel tiped 5.56 ammo. That maybe under the copper jackets, was a steel cone and then the lead core.

Dont know if this is the norm for standard issue 5.56 ammo or if it was amour pearse stuff but there was alot of the small steel cones on the bank.

Barry Aldwell

chem wrote:

Just a quick point on the 5.56 ammo. I was on a local army range and made my way to havin a look about on the back drop. dug abit into the sand and found alot of the 5.56 heads.

I found that most of them seemed to have hit the bank side on instead of point first. Alot were flatened to the back and were very twisted (some rounds were nearly V shaped.

I then noticed there were alot of very small steel cones about and just wondered if these were steel tiped 5.56 ammo. That maybe under the copper jackets, was a steel cone and then the lead core.

Dont know if this is the norm for standard issue 5.56 ammo or if it was amour pearse stuff but there was alot of the small steel cones on the bank.

Those rounds had hit the cardboard targets, which caused them to begin to tumble. This is what they are supposed to do when they hit something, as it maximises damage.

Hagar

Riggser wrote:

they wound rather than kill causing disruption on the enemies part.

From a purely tactical point of view this is valid when fighting a regular army. There is a tactical advantage to be had on a larger scale. It is estimated that logistically 8 people are involved in caring for a wounded soldier. In a battle against an irregular army this hardly applies so the combatant only wants his enemy to go down and stay down, forget the non-existant tactical benefit to someone else.

Clare gunner

civdef wrote:

This has been fairly well debunked on a lot of military forums, with people who served in Iraq indicating many of the points made are impossible, others outright wrong.

The consensus from people who were there is this was written by someone who wasn't.

Enlighten us Civ ,who,what,where,why? The consensus from other boards is that those who are claiming this is BS are armchair warriors or desk generals in the Pentagon who are making money from the arms industry.Personall,I would be inclined to belive that on the m16 and the 9mm.And if this is BS why then ARE actually M14s being reissued and demanded by designated squad snipers,and SF units?Not to mind that Fulton Armoury is building these flat out.

Other problem with wounding your enemy type idea.The insurgents you are fighting are really not intrested too much in looking after their wounded,considering that 40 virgins await them in paradise.So even grevisouly injured they WILL continue to fight to the death.I never agreed with this idea of wounding your enemy.Better they are daed than still able to pull the trigger again or let go of a grenade spoon when you approach them.
Also if this 5.56 is such a wondeful round why is the US looking at replacement with a bigger calibre like a 6mm as a standard again???

scout

The wound option only works if the wounded becomes a liability this is fast going out though as a dead U.S. soldior makes headlines and creates political pressure a wounded soldier does not

the other thing that needs to be taken into consideration is the an american life is worth more than an iraque ,,politicaly i mean

these insurgents are "freedom" fighters and you will alway have another to take their place and besides a dead person cant claim he is an inocent bystander,,,,wounded can

Barry Aldwell

Clare gunner wrote:

Enlighten us Civ ,who,what,where,why?

This takes care of it nicely, I think
http://63.99.108.76/forums/index.php?showtopic=13256&st=0&p=246691&#entry246691

I also note that your version is highly edited to the one doing the rounds on military boards

Clare gunner wrote:

And if this is BS why then ARE actually M14s being reissued and demanded by designated squad snipers,and SF units?Not to mind that Fulton Armoury is building these flat out.

Because the M16 will hit out to 300m, and the M4 will hit out to 150-200m. If you want to reach out and touch someone past that range, you need a M14/M21 or DMR (which is a semiautomatic heavybarreled M16 with a high powered optical sight, capable of hitting out to 600m)

Clare gunner wrote:

Also if this 5.56 is such a wondeful round why is the US looking at replacement with a bigger calibre like a 6mm as a standard again???

Up until pretty recently the US Army were pretty set on 5.56mm SS109. I've heard that they were considering 6.8 SPC, but that was just a rumour.

One of the main problems with many of the reports you read about 5.56mm not killing usually involve some silly person trying to hit at 500m with an M4, and being suprised when the round doesn't kill the target. It's not designed to. That's why your average SF guy, who doesn't go out with any support, needs an M14 - he doesn't have someone behind him with a GPMG to take out the targets that are over 300m away

Clare gunner

I also note that your version is highly edited to the one doing the rounds on military boards

Thats the same post allright.But if you are implying that I edited it highly.I resent the implication.It is hardly revelant on a shooting board about the status of the Iraqui resistance and their tactics.Or the Colation morale,etc.The revelance was to sidearms up to LMGs.If in future I see a post that might be revelant I will post the entirity of it so everyone can wade thru it to get to the point.:rolleyes:

Because the M16 will hit out to 300m, and the M4 will hit out to 150-200m. If you want to reach out and touch someone past that range, you need a M14/M21 or DMR (which is a semiautomatic heavybarreled M16 with a high powered optical sight, capable of hitting out to 600m)

Designated Marksmans Rifle.Yeah fine,BUT it is stil firing a round that is the same as the std M16/M4.So if the effective killing range is appx 250 meters max.How effective will it be out to 600 meters?Appx three times it's effective killing range.

Up until pretty recently the US Army were pretty set on 5.56mm SS109. I've heard that they were considering 6.8 SPC, but that was just a rumour.

Nope not a rumour,it was considerd because of the ineffective killing range in Afghanistan of the 5.56.It has been shelved because it is obvisouly not a good idea in the middle of a conflict to go and change your armys guns.Not to mind that there is so much ammo,parts,etc for the 16 that there is enough to keep it going for another decade at least.Same reason the US army dropped the Hk replacement for the M16.It was simply a new improved 16 with not much else improvement in calibre.

One of the main problems with many of the reports you read about 5.56mm not killing usually involve some silly person trying to hit at 500m with an M4, and being suprised when the round doesn't kill the target. It's not designed to. That's why your average SF guy, who doesn't go out with any support, needs an M14 - he doesn't have someone behind him with a GPMG to take out the targets that are over 300m away

[/QUOTE]

Indeed there is some revelance to this.So that would also kind of make a mockery of the concept of the DMR in 5.56.It can reach out but can't kill.The DMR is designed for precision sniping within the 300max meter killing range.Fine for urban combat.Further out get a 308 or Barret 50
however the problem of of it not killing even at close range with one shot was even known in Vietnam.Funny if it is so good why do most GIs then and now pick up ASAP an AK?Dont get me wrong I do like,use and have used the AR15/16,but it has got some major design faults that can be fatal if you do not attend to them ASAP.Like keeping it clean,especially in the breech ,gas system,it is a system that doesnt like dirt.
Most of the better designs are all gas piston designs,which work in any enviroment,EG the AK and it's derivatives,[Galil,Sig,Valmet,]which the AR180 had fourty years ago,and the US didnt adapt because the M16 was then in service.The solution to the reliability problem as suggested by HK was to make an upper 40 years later with a gas piston[well DUH!]
Most SF lads will tell you they carry it because it is light[well if you dont hang 14lbs of acessories&junk on it]And when you are out and humping 70lbs of kit in a bergen on your back,every ounce will count.Also SF units do have more liberal choices in weapons than the normal unit.Take what works for you.

Capall86

Clare gunner wrote:

:
Designated Marksmans Rifle.Yeah fine,BUT it is stil firing a round that is the same as the std M16/M4.So if the effective killing range is appx 250 meters max.How effective will it be out to 600 meters?Appx three times it's effective killing range.

eh your wrong there bud, effective killing range is more then 250m. I have fire 5.56 at a target from 300m and it went throught the target and hit the berm behind it . i have some advice, go read some actual facts about the war in iraq and military weapons and doctrine, maybe then someone will respect and agree with your opinion.

Barry Aldwell

Clare gunner wrote:

Designated Marksmans Rifle.Yeah fine,BUT it is stil firing a round that is the same as the std M16/M4.So if the effective killing range is appx 250 meters max.How effective will it be out to 600 meters?Appx three times it's effective killing range.

I've never used a M16 or M4, so I won't comment on the abilities or technical merits or demerits of a direct gas versus gas pistol system

However, I have fired 5.56mm in my time, and I would love to know where this magical figure of 250m came from

Rew

Effective range is the range at which you can expect to accurately hit a target. Its a product of the round and the firearm. Its 400m for 5.56mm fired from an assault rifle, possibly more.

Its lethal for about 1.5+ km I reckon

Barry Aldwell

I went to the bother of looking up some ballistic data for the 2 types of 5.56mm; 5.56mm M193 from a M16A1, and 5.56mm SS109 from a M16A2.

http://www.ak-47.net/ammo/ss109.txt

The data only goes out to 800m, at which point the 55 grain M193 is doing 927 fps, and the 61.7 grain SS109/M855 is doing 1010 fps

I doubt either round would just bounce off your wooly jumper. It probably wouldn't tumble on impact (it might be tumbling before, though), and definitely wouldn't fragment on impact, but I'm not gonna volunteer to take one of them in the chest anytime soon.

Clare gunner

Capall86 wrote:

eh your wrong there bud, effective killing range is more then 250m. I have fire 5.56 at a target from 300m and it went throught the target and hit the berm behind it . i have some advice, go read some actual facts about the war in iraq and military weapons and doctrine, maybe then someone will respect and agree with your opinion.

Goody for you!When you have used a AR15 in a police type situation,hunted with one,built one yourself,from scratch of parts,talked to USMC armourers in Camp Pendelton CA on this,shot a few different m16 varients on a USMC range talked to vets who used it when it was a jamomatic in Nam who are now class 3 gun dealers ,and would say it is nothing but a POS up to Gulf war one.
THEN maybe YOU have somthing to say to me!As for shooting out to 300 meters of course it will go thru the target as I assume the target was made of paper/card?And tell me BUD have YOU actually killed anything man like with one of these at 300meters apart from paper???I haven't thank God but I'm sure an expert like you will be able to fill us in in it's combat effiency,as you surely have used it in actual combat no doubt?????

Clare gunner

Barry Aldwell wrote:

I went to the bother of looking up some ballistic data for the 2 types of 5.56mm; 5.56mm M193 from a M16A1, and 5.56mm SS109 from a M16A2.

http://www.ak-47.net/ammo/ss109.txt

The data only goes out to 800m, at which point the 55 grain M193 is doing 927 fps, and the 61.7 grain SS109/M855 is doing 1010 fps

I doubt either round would just bounce off your wooly jumper. It probably wouldn't tumble on impact (it might be tumbling before, though), and definitely wouldn't fragment on impact, but I'm not gonna volunteer to take one of them in the chest anytime soon.

MYTH no 1 of the 5.56. It does not ,never has,never will "tumble"or more correctly keyhole.It would be otherwise a totally inaccurate round,which the 5.56 is most certainly not.It is more than likely to break up in two or more fragments in the body cavity.This is military FMJ ammo we are talking about,civvie 223 will have different charistics.By that I mean different types of bullets and powders etc.
The AK74 round is designed to tumble in the body cavity.despite being a FMJ round it's tip is hollow under the copper coat.
Yes,it will injure greviously even in the right place .At 800 meters you really are pushing your luck with what is a glorified 22 round.But I suppose that is the doctrine that it is better to have injured enemy etc etc.

As fo the 250 meters figure well you quoted that the M4 is effective 150/250 meters,the m16 to 300 meters the DMR out to 600 meters.Interpolate the figures for the std "grunt"m16/m4s of max 300 min 150meters 250meters is a good batting average for both rifles"standard " accuracy[without a scope]?Realistically 300 meters is the max of that round.Oh sure there will say they have shot out to 800/1000meters no doubt with this round in the army,etc.BUT how Big is the target at that range? And will you consistently hit a mansized target at that range in the vital areas?Fair dues if you can,I couldnt.Not over open sights anyway.Put it like this if I am going to pop a hostile out at that distance,I think that hostile mustbe important enough to hit at that distance.So do you want that hostile dead or wounded for your efforts?More likely dead.Only logical .Plus what is your average combat range in an urban area?
REW
The 22lr is lethl up to 2kms[says so on the boxes].Doesnt mean that either are accurate at that range.Effective range of 400 meters is the norm,depends on the person using the rifle as well.

Capall86

I though you could not post anything more stupid with your last post, but i have to hand it to you, you proved me wrong! Wow you have talked to alot of people in the usmc and used marine ranges, i think your great now, and i wana be like you when i grow up!

Clare gunner wrote:

As for shooting out to 300 meters of course it will go thru the target as I assume the target was made of paper/card?

no they were plastic actually

Clare gunner wrote:

And tell me BUD have YOU actually killed anything man like with one of these at 300meters apart from paper

no but my uncle has

Clare gunner wrote:

one of these at 300meters apart from paper???I haven't thank God

so you profess to have a very good knowledge on firearms and combat weapons but have never actually hit a target! i hope you reach your goal one day!:rolleyes: :rolleyes:


have you ever heard the saying "when in a hole stop digging" well man if you don't soon, i hope for yuor sakes the shovel breaks or something coz you are deep!

p.s don't ever call me bud, it's a beer and a sh*t one at that call berg or something next time:)

Capall86

Clare gunner wrote:

MYTH no 1: i have a brain

I rest my case:D

Capall86

clare gunner why did you change your last post from what i have quoted!
for proof everyone can see he edited his post look at the bottom of his post:D

Barry Aldwell

Clare gunner wrote:

At 800 meters you really are pushing your luck with what is a glorified 22 round

Yeah, I can really see the similarities..........

Clare gunner wrote:

As fo the 250 meters figure well you quoted that the M4 is effective 150/250 meters,the m16 to 300 meters the DMR out to 600 meters.Interpolate the figures for the std "grunt"m16/m4s of max 300 min 150meters 250meters is a good batting average for both rifles"standard " accuracy[without a scope]?Realistically 300 meters is the max of that round.Oh sure there will say they have shot out to 800/1000meters no doubt with this round in the army,etc.BUT how Big is the target at that range? And will you consistently hit a mansized target at that range in the vital areas?Fair dues if you can,I couldnt

For some reason, you seem to be thinking that we're talking about a single shooter, and if he doesn't get the 9 or 10 on the target he loses the competition. In reality, we're talking about 6 lads with rifles and one with a GPMG. If you miss first round, doesn't matter, you've got 29 more on the rifle, and loads more in your webbing. Multiply by 6 lads, and add in a machine gun, and you've got the sort of situation we're talking about.

Clare gunner wrote:

The 22lr is lethl up to 2kms[says so on the boxes].Doesnt mean that either are accurate at that range.Effective range of 400 meters is the norm,depends on the person using the rifle as well.

Again, doesn't have to get the 10 straight on. The sound of a round going over someone's head might be enough to convince them to turn around and run away.

Clare gunner

Capall86 wrote:

clare gunner why did you change your last post from what i have quoted!
for proof everyone can see he edited his post look at the bottom of his post:D

First off BUD!!!!!! .YOU started with this in your first post.As far as I am concerned,that is the hight of commonnes and prize ignorance which you display remarkably well.You want to learn some manners .
If you cant take the heat......Seeing that you ran out of any sort of rational counter arguement and decided to to revert to the lowest form of insult your juvenile brain could come up with I wont even bother fighting somone who is unarmed [in wit or wisdom ]So you want to be like me??I'm chuffed,but sorry sonny I dont think you will ever make the grade.You have alot to learn and too much growing up to do.
So your "uncle" killed somone with a 5.56.Do tell us ,I am very intrested in where,when ,at what range?Or maybe he did all this while playing your playstation???? So it was plastic?hmm what is the difference??Was it some special super duper plastic target that is supposed to be bullet proof at 300 meters.
Here is another saying for you.
Never argue with idiots.They drag you down to their level and beat you with excperiance.A most fitting epitath for you,and one I should know by now.
No go away and stop being the rear part of a horses anatomony.

Capall86

Clare gunner wrote:

First off BUD!!!!!! .YOU started with this in your first post.As far as I am concerned,that is the hight of commonnes and prize ignorance which you display remarkably well.You want to learn some manners .

I was trying to be nice in my first post, as for ignorance your the one who has been proved wrong on a thread and won't take it that you are wrong, everyone who has psoted on this thread has proved you wrong.

Clare gunner wrote:

If you cant take the heat......Seeing that you ran out of any sort of rational counter arguement

To be honest i was not bothered as i knew good oul barry was going to once again prove you wrong, if you a rational counter argument, post something that makes sense.

Clare gunner wrote:

So your "uncle" killed somone with a 5.56.Do tell us ,I am very intrested in where,when ,at what range?Or maybe he did all this while playing your playstation?

My uncle was in the american army and saw combat action and yes he did kill people, but lets not go there as it is not a nice subject. You have some problems though seen as you want all the details, maybe you should see someone about it.

Clare gunner wrote:

Was it some special super duper plastic target that is supposed to be bullet proof at 300 meters.

You really are getting more idiotic as time goes on, you know this stuff they make body armour out of, kevlar, well its a type of plastic, which is apparently bullet proof, and if what you say is right, it would def stop a 5.56 round at thee hundred metres, actually if what you say is right the round would just bounce off the vest.......so i think we have found another point poving you wrong

Clare gunner wrote:

Here is another saying for you.
Never argue with idiots.

Well here i am arguing with you, i won't make the mistake again, thanks for advice

Clare gunner wrote:

No go away and stop being the rear part of a horses anatomony.

which part? there alot of things on the rear of a horse....... Are you talking about the tail? you need to brush up on your insults.

Hagar

Pistols at 10 paces gentlemen. no BP vests.

Clare gunner

Barry Aldwell wrote:

Yeah, I can really see the similarities..........

Yes Barry.We all know the 5.56 /.223 is much bigger than a 22LR.However it is still in in the 22 bracket of things.It stil is a 5.5somthing dia.

For some reason, you seem to be thinking that we're talking about a single shooter, and if he doesn't get the 9 or 10 on the target he loses the competition. In reality, we're talking about 6 lads with rifles and one with a GPMG. If you miss first round, doesn't matter, you've got 29 more on the rifle, and loads more in your webbing. Multiply by 6 lads, and add in a machine gun, and you've got the sort of situation we're talking about.

Eh ??No I am not thinking of competition at all.I am talking about engaging your hostile at max effective range.If you are going to try and drop these hostiles at 500 meters as you suggested in a previous post,and as you said in that post find out that they dont drop at that range after bein hit.What is the point in firing another 29 rounds at that distance in the hope of killing them??You would be better off INMHO telling the GMPG man to switch to semi and hit them with the 7.62.Unless of course you are toting a SAW in 5.56.I thought the whole idea is to engage your enemy as far away a possible from you effectively.
As well are you talking a SF sit or a regular patrol?I sure as Hell would not want to be wasting my ammo that I have to hump for miles ineffectively on spray and pray tactics at it's outer limit in the hope of downing one of the enemy and hoping his pals are going to look after him.Nice if it works,but you know Murphys first law of combat.Also just how much can you carry in ammo along with all your other needed kit ?Not to mind that some of your team will be humping along the Comms and another xtra ammo for the GPMG,proably another will have a couple of LAW type anti armour rockets.So you would really every round to count on being a hit on a SF mission.
If it is a regular patrol,I should be able to call for back up so your ammo should last until help arrives.

Again, doesn't have to get the 10 straight on. The sound of a round going over someone's head might be enough to convince them to turn around and run away.

Hopefully,but isnt that a bit wishful thinking in a combat situation where your enemy might be rather disiplined to recive incoming fire???Or quite frankly not care as has been the case in Iraq or Afghahnistan??

jeffshc1

So, can I play too?

My dog is meaner than your dog...:p

Ugly too:D

civdef

Since this is neither sports shooting or hunting related, ye will be better off continuing this on a military forum somewhere.