Calling off my whole stack with a hand I shouldn't be in the pot with - how's my play

RoundTower

On all in poker tonight. I make a loose call for $7, in position, not intending to commit any more unless I hit something. Then look what happens.

Ojemar plays straightforward enough, haven't seen him play a lot, haven't seen him raise preflop at all. Goarmy is a muppet, plays a lot of hands, goes too far with them. Also rarely raises preflop. I have a note that says he calls too much with weak draws and sometimes minraises with hands like AT57 double suited out of the blinds (an actual example).

What range do you put the two players on, how does my hand do against those hands? Is calling here good? Would it be better to raise?

** Game ID 635911572 starting - 2006-01-05 03:13:37
** Ridiculous Rigby [Omaha] (1.00|2.00 Pot Limit - Cash Game) Real Money

- goarmy1 sitting in seat 1 with $80.00
- tjooh sitting in seat 2 with $269.65
- toolman40 sitting in seat 3 with $245.78
- Bjud sitting in seat 4 with $23.70
- ojemar sitting in seat 5 with $186.10
- Round-Tower sitting in seat 6 with $283.77 [Dealer]

goarmy1 posted the small blind - $1.00
tjooh posted the big blind - $2.00

** Dealing card to Round-Tower: 5 of Spades, 6 of Clubs, 7 of Hearts, Jack of Spades

toolman40 folded
Bjud folded
ojemar raised - $7.00
Round-Tower called - $7.00
goarmy1 raised - $30.00
tjooh folded
ojemar raised - $53.00
Round-Tower called - $53.00
goarmy1 went all-in - $51.00
ojemar went all-in - $133.10
Round-Tower called - $186.10

Lafortezza

I think after ojemar raises you know it's a fold. But 3 way against AAxx and a coordinated KKQJ you're 31% to win so it's not terrible.

pokenum  -mc 500000  -o ac ad 2h 7s  - kd qd ks jh  - 5s 6c 7h js 
Omaha Hi: 500000 sampled boards
cards             win   %win    lose  %lose  tie  %tie     EV
7s Ac  Ad  2h  159802  31.96  340198  68.04    0  0.00  0.320
Ks Kd  Qd  Jh  183302  36.66  316698  63.34    0  0.00  0.367
Js 5s  6c  7h  156896  31.38  343104  68.62    0  0.00  0.314

Give one of them a better wrap type hand and it's not looking good. 29% equity 3-way.

Did you have a good reason for gambooling?

henbane

Ojemar plays straightforward enough, haven't seen him play a lot, haven't seen him raise preflop at all.

Almost guaranteed he's holding big coordinated AAxx

Goarmy is a muppet, plays a lot of hands, goes too far with them. Also rarely raises preflop.

A little harder to know. Even bad players recognise that a decent wrap hand is good againt probable AAxx but the third raise is often a second AAxx/overplayed semi-coordinated big pair.

They have a hard job making your hand worse than 30% without having better spade draws. You can't know if your spades are clean but against two players they're certainly not guaranteed to be dead.

I think the call is probably breakeven in the long run. The times you're up against AAxx twice with clean spade outs, you're better than 40% depending on their danglers. The times you're up against AAxx with spades and a better wrap hand, you're worse than 30%. I think you will find AAxx twice and other semi-coordinated big pairs here often enough to make it breakeven but it's a gambler's call.

Edit - thinking about this some more. I think you're probably against AAxx twice so often, that this is a decent call. It's the possibility of one of them holding better spade outs that is stealing your equity. The spades shouldn't be a problem often enough to make this a fold. Call!

Edit - missed the size of the sidepot, don't have time to look at it now but all of the above may be bóllócks now.

Doc Farrell

I hope ur putting this up as an amusement because obviously there's no skill in going alll in preflop in Omaha against multiple players no matter what the percentages look like. Might as well just go to Leopardstown, at least u'd get a day out of it.

anyone who disagrees with the above statement is of course entitled to their opinion but please don't even attempt to debate it.

Marq

Doc Farrell wrote:

anyone who disagrees with the above statement is of course entitled to their opinion but please don't even attempt to debate it.

Why bother posting such an opinion if you don't want to debate it? You know that the comment is likely to create debate, as it is an eminently debateable subject. Your post adds nothing to the original poster's question, and as you are also loath to let anyone discuss the new question that you have raised, your post in this thread serves no purpose.

You have claimed in other threads that you know nothing about omaha. Your comment in this thread lends credence to such a claim. Why post on a topic you admit you know nothing about?

Roundtower is looking for advice on a specific hand, your general comment on pre-flop all-ins (which is ignorant of the nuances of the game) really doesn't help. I think that no post would have been preferable to that post.


Back on topic:
A few things that I dislike about the hand in question:
the jack in your hand, although giving you a flush possiblity, does little else for you. you can't form a nut straight or flush with it, so it will usually amount to a dangler.

Against one player, I think it's probably a slightly worse than break even play. against two, it's not a hand that I would usually get all-in with pre-flop.

However, this wasn't a case of you sticking it in with only 2:1 equity from the pot. You're getting much better than that because you have already called the first all-in. At the point when Ojemar sticks in his money, I think not calling is bad play.

I think your original instinct to not call off anymore than 7 was totally correct. While there's certainly value in seeing a flop in position with your hand, I think that I'm only calling the 30 (or the 53) preflop if there is a lot of money behind in both of the other players' stacks. I don't see the implied odds of calling the first all in, although I do see the pot odds of calling the second (having already called the first).

I think you've landed yourself in a silly situation by not folding to the original reraise. If there's a good chance that both players have aces, it's not the worst call in the world pre-flop, but against the range of hands that have been discussed above (I would agree with Lafortezza on these to a large extent), I think that it's a clear fold for 53, and a marginal call for the extra 133.

The hand is complicated by the size of the sidepot. You only have to beat the second all in and you're probably not much worse than 60:40 for even money investment, plus the times you will scoop both. Still don't like the fcall of the first re-raise though.

Juan Pablo

Doc Farrell wrote:

I hope ur putting this up as an amusement because obviously there's no skill in going alll in preflop in Omaha against multiple players no matter what the percentages look like.

I initially thought you were posting your comment out of amusement, when it actually appears you are serious! It saddens me to think someone who has been playing poker for quite some time would state such a uneducated and wholly spurious "fact", when in fact all it amounts to is a myth Holdem players who have neither played, studied nor properly understood the mechanics of Omaha cling onto. In Omaha, there is great skill in choosing the spots in which to get all of your chips in the pot in a profitable spot, or electing to drop when the numbers are not in your favour, pre or post flop, as there is in Holdem. To argue otherwise would be tort.

Might as well just go to Leopardstown, at least u'd get a day out of it.

Why only stay the day, sure the tail in 92 on racenights is nothing short of jawdropping.

anyone who disagrees with the above statement is of course entitled to their opinion but please don't even attempt to debate it.

There is a world of difference between opinion and fact, and such a baseless statement will only cause more debate.

Onto the hand in question

I cannot disagree with Marqs' excellent analysis above, you have called a bet you probably shouldn't have (although with reads on your villains etc if you believe your are a superior post flop player its by no means a terrible call) and your opponents have than proceeded to define their holdings clearly to you, leaving you with an interesting conundrum on your hands. I feel while Ojemar is sure to have a powerhouse AAxx combination, people may be giving the muppet too much credit for his holdings. I have seen people call off entire stacks holding hands like AAAx or QQ22 no suits. However, I would much rather that Jack to be an 8 or even a 4 before calling the extra 53, once you call the 53 you are committed to calling the extra 133. It’s a sticky situation you have landed yourself in, but is by no means a bad play. I'm intrigued to know how the hand played out

Doc Farrell

Marq wrote:

You have claimed in other threads that you know nothing about omaha. Your comment in this thread lends credence to such a claim.

when?

RoundTower

Can a moderator delete the troll posts, please. Thanks.

OK I think henbane's thinking is closest to what I was thinking during the game. I expect ojemar to have AAxx and Goarmy to have a probable AAxx. Although "even bad players recognise that a decent wrap hand is good against probable AAxx" it takes a particular kind of player to reraise here expecting to be against AAxx -- normally you raise with 6789 because it's likely to do well postflop, and because it's not the end of the world if you get heads up all in against AA, but you don't set out to isolate the AA hand. I didn't see goarmy as being that type of player, and without saying so explicitly I tried to give that impression in my description of him.

I hardly ever invest €53 and fold for an extra €133, and I think there's no question that the final call of the all in is justified. But I called for the €53 fully expecting both players to push, so it makes sense to think of the €53 call as committing my whole stack. The advantages of calling instead of raising here are that: 1) if goarmy just calls I can make up my mind in position postflop, and 2) if goarmy has something like KKxx I wouldn't want him to have a flash of brilliance and dump it against at least one "obvious" AA. Both of these situations are unlikely, but I don't think it makes much difference.

OK so I've decided both players probably have AA, is my call correct then? You may have heard that if both players have aces double suited, you would be correct to pull any four cards from the muck and play with them on the blind all in preflop. This is true and I think my hand is slightly better than an average hand when it comes to cracking aces. But I overestimated this during the game. I did some simulations since on twodimes, and while unlikely to be less than 33% I am unlikely to be above 40% as well, depending on the exact cards the other two players hold.

Of course 33% would be plenty, but there is the side pot to consider. I may be as much as a 70-30 dog in the side pot, and the side pot is almost as big as the main pot. If goarmy had significantly more and ojemar had slightly less I would be happier with the call. As it is, the €53 call is losing money, and the €133 call is correct but unfortunate.