Building Regs - Stairs in Kitchen

Busy Lizzy

I have just bought a house cottage and plan on knocking a wall to enlarge the kitchen this will mean the stairs up to a bedroom will be in the kitchen.

Is it against building regulations to have stairs in a kitchen? Will it affect insurance (fire risk)?

All responses greatly appreciated.Thanks in advance!

Eurorunner

Not well versed in these things but just had a quick scan of the copy of the Regs thats sitting on my desktop and only thing related i could find was this:

"every room which contains a sanitary convenience shall be adequately seperated from any place where food is prepared and cooked."

Would only come into play if the bedroom had an en-suite?


Didnt see anything else of relevance but I'm sure there are others on here who are better acquainted with the Regs...

Hagar

Nothing to do with building regs but get yourself a good extractor fan or you will go to bed in a room that smells of tonight's dinner.

kadman

Busy Lizzy wrote:

I have just bought a house cottage and plan on knocking a wall to enlarge the kitchen this will mean the stairs up to a bedroom will be in the kitchen.

Is it against building regulations to have stairs in a kitchen? Will it affect insurance (fire risk)?

All responses greatly appreciated.Thanks in advance!

Hi Busy Lizzy,

There are so many regulations regarding staircases, apart from the location of it. Although you may fufill one criteria, you may pass out of the regs on others.

There are regs covering, width of tread, height of rise, tread span on winders, angles for public, semi, and domestic staircases. Maximum and minimum dimensions for all criteria. height of handrail , guarding ect.

So it would be unwise of me to say yes to a kitchen location, if you did not fulfil all the other regs, and then fall outside of compliance.

If you are doing this as a self build, you may already have an architect or engineer that should guide you. If not it would be worthwhile getting one , or professional input. If you are employing a contractor, he should know the regs in this given situation.

Work on existing dwellings , in relation to staircases, does not necessarily have to follow word for word instruction, so long as it is in general compliance. But this interpretation is really down to a professional survey, and advice.

So its not really a question of is it yes or no.

This is the link for some of the regs that will govern you.

http://www.environ.ie/DOEI/DOEIPol.nsf/wvInfoView/A137E0322D60E09780256F5D00504A79?OpenDocument&Lang=en

kadman:)

patrido

while good design in compliance with the relevant regulations is always crucial with stairs, it's the fire regulations that are relevant in this case.

they forbid a stairs ending in a kitchen, as well as having restrictions on the distance from the stairs to the nearest exit, and obstructions in the way, etc.

while the regulations apply in a strict sense to new builds, refurbishments/conversions *can* be treated differently, when appropriate. you may be able to convince the relevant authorities that your design is compliant with the principles of the fire regulations, and that you have little alternative.

i expect that you will have to convince them that the occupants of the bedroom can safely escape in the event of a serious fire in the kitchen. a key factor here would be the escape route - would you have to pass through the kitchen to get to the door, or is the stairs beside the door? are there any obstacles? could you construct a fire rated barrier (wall) at the kitchen side of the stairs, to allow for a safe escape or leave part of the existing wall?

you might be expected to increase the fire rating of your ceilings, provide an external fire escape from the bedroom, or any number of other measures.

do you have an architect advising you on the design? there may be better alternatives, or even simple changes to the design that will be more compliant and (more importantly) safer.

i would be inclined to do this one by the book and not take any shortcuts or chances.

JimmyL

A little bit off topic: Would I need planning permission for a spiral staircase (premade kit) in a living room going up to a mini attic conversion (which I wasn't planning on applying for permission)?

Thanks.

patrido

no, stairs don't need planning permission per se. the stairs is just part of the conversion. i would always recommend getting permission though. there may be issues in the future if you try to sell the house, so it might be worthwhile keeping the regulations in mind at this stage, even if you don't apply for permission.

it would be in your interest to check if the dimensions of the stairs comply with the regulations. in certain cases, where space is limited, and depending on the usage of the attic, a spiral stairs does not have to comply with the normal regulations for going/rising/width, etc.

But the most important ones are the fire regulations. Take a look at parts b and k of the building regs. The DOE have an info sheet on loft conversions too.

JimmyL

Thanks for that, patrido.

Looks like, all I really need is an escape roof window (single storey building) - I was wondering why they were selling those.

Busy Lizzy

patrido wrote:

while good design in compliance with the relevant regulations is always crucial with stairs, it's the fire regulations that are relevant in this case.

they forbid a stairs ending in a kitchen, as well as having restrictions on the distance from the stairs to the nearest exit, and obstructions in the way, etc.

while the regulations apply in a strict sense to new builds, refurbishments/conversions *can* be treated differently, when appropriate. you may be able to convince the relevant authorities that your design is compliant with the principles of the fire regulations, and that you have little alternative.

i expect that you will have to convince them that the occupants of the bedroom can safely escape in the event of a serious fire in the kitchen. a key factor here would be the escape route - would you have to pass through the kitchen to get to the door, or is the stairs beside the door? are there any obstacles? could you construct a fire rated barrier (wall) at the kitchen side of the stairs, to allow for a safe escape or leave part of the existing wall?

you might be expected to increase the fire rating of your ceilings, provide an external fire escape from the bedroom, or any number of other measures.

do you have an architect advising you on the design? there may be better alternatives, or even simple changes to the design that will be more compliant and (more importantly) safer.

i would be inclined to do this one by the book and not take any shortcuts or chances.

Thanks Patrido - The bedroom at the top of the stairs has a door into it and a window which leads onto a flat one storey roof -which could be used as a fire exit?

When carrying out interior modifications on a house who certifies it - the relevant authority or the contractor/builder? Thanks again!

37

JimmyL wrote:

Thanks for that, patrido.

Looks like, all I really need is an escape roof window (single storey building) - I was wondering why they were selling those.

You may need planning for the window, if its going on your front elevation.

Victor

I imagine the fire officer would have a bit of an anuerism if he saw what you are proposing. Most house fires start in kitchens and living areas. Most fire deaths are with people asleep in upper storeys.

Busy Lizzy wrote:

Thanks Patrido - The bedroom at the top of the stairs has a door into it and a window which leads onto a flat one storey roof -which could be used as a fire exit?

Then you would need an appropriate escape off the roof (fire can easily come through a flat or other roof).

When carrying out interior modifications on a house who certifies it - the relevant authority or the contractor/builder? Thanks again!

The designer of the stairs needs to certify it. The builder can only be asked to confirm he built in accordance with the design.

A little bit off topic: Would I need planning permission for a spiral staircase (premade kit) in a living room going up to a mini attic conversion (which I wasn't planning on applying for permission)?

you may need PP because of the increase in floor area.

patrido

When carrying out interior modifications on a house who certifies it - the relevant authority or the contractor/builder? Thanks again!

It is never the builder.

To some extent, the process of planning permission should ensure that the overall design is compliant with the building regulations. In ireland, that is often the last contact you have with the local authority, so they don't follow through to check that the finished product is compliant.

However, banks will often require that a professionally indemnified engineer certifies the work before it issues a stage payment. If there is no bank involved, or they do not require this (sometimes they just ask the engineer to state the value of the work done), you should really be getting your engineer to certify compliance BEFORE making payments to the builder.

when doing a conversion, you might be using your own money (or even your own labour), so people often don't bother getting planning permission, and don't bother getting an engineer to check it, since they are not forced to do so.

however, this may cause insurance problems, it might be a fire/health risk and if you want to sell the house, the buyer might request that all works be covered by a certificate of compliance, before proceeding with the sale.

the doe say that "an authorised officer of the local building control authority is entitled to inspect works in connection with the conversion of a roof space in a dwelling house, for the purpose of ensuring compliance with the regulations". I don't know in what circumstances this might happen - it might be worth a call to the local authority.

Victor wrote:

The designer of the stairs needs to certify it.

really? what is your source for this? where does the certification happen?

Victor

patrido wrote:

It is never the builder.

It can be if the builder does an element of design.

To some extent, the process of planning permission should ensure that the overall design is compliant with the building regulations.

Only very superficially. The council planners are primarily interested in the way the building fits in with it's surroundings, visually though useage, etc. It is not their job to vet the design regarding the Building Regulations (the Building Control department deal with Building Regulations). They may however point out some specific items if the are noticed, ther only time I have heard of this was a top floor flat conversion where the bedroom windows were inadequate for fire escape.

However, banks will often require that a professionally indemnified engineer certifies the work before it issues a stage payment. If there is no bank involved, or they do not require this (sometimes they just ask the engineer to state the value of the work done), you should really be getting your engineer to certify compliance BEFORE making payments to the builder.

Be wary of confusing a payment certificate (and interim document issued at every payment) with a certificate of compliance (usually issued towards the end of the project). The payment certificate may however include some element of "I am generally satisfied with the work".

the doe say that "an authorised officer of the local building control authority is entitled to inspect works in connection with the conversion of a roof space in a dwelling house, for the purpose of ensuring compliance with the regulations". I don't know in what circumstances this might happen - it might be worth a call to the local authority.

Its largely a matter of "can" or "may" (choice) rather than "shall" or "will" (no choice).

really? what is your source for this? where does the certification happen?

I've actually seen very few, but it is for the designer to certify compliance in design and the builder merely has to certify that he has built substabtially in accordance with the design.

patrido

i'm curious about what kind of certificate joe builder & sons can write, and what it's worth.

in my view the only thing worth the paper it's written on is a letter or certificate from an engineer who is backed by professional indemnity.

a certificate of compliance is worth a lot more because it covers the whole building. but while a stage payment letter will contain the words "the works so far", it is still backed by professional indemnity.