Serious Judder in 1st gear

TigerTim

Hi,

Hope someone could point me in the right direction before I have to give my local peugeot dealer loads of dosh. I've a 1990 Hymer camper with a Talbot Express 2.0L petrol engine.gearbox. Engine/gearbox is almost identical to Peugeot 505 or J5 or Citroen C25 van. I have noticed a slight judder recently when driving off in 1st gear but yesterday it became quite violent.It has developed a serious judder when releasing the clutch in 1st gear. Seems OK when the engine is cold but when it is hot, it seems like the camper is going to shake itself to bits. If I take off in 2nd gear there is no vibration but its probably too high. Its OK once moving in all other gears. I reckon its probably the clutch or pressure plate. I have a vague memory of having something similar in a Mini clubman when the crankshaft oil seal leaked letting oil onto the clutch but I could be wrong. Hope someone has come across this & could point me in the right direction & save some dealer labour hours!!.

Thanks,

Tim

adam01

TigerTim wrote:

Hi,

Hope someone could point me in the right direction before I have to give my local peugeot dealer loads of dosh. I've a 1990 Hymer camper with a Talbot Express 2.0L petrol engine.gearbox. Engine/gearbox is almost identical to Peugeot 505 or J5 or Citroen C25 van. I have noticed a slight judder recently when driving off in 1st gear but yesterday it became quite violent.It has developed a serious judder when releasing the clutch in 1st gear. Seems OK when the engine is cold but when it is hot, it seems like the camper is going to shake itself to bits. If I take off in 2nd gear there is no vibration but its probably too high. Its OK once moving in all other gears. I reckon its probably the clutch or pressure plate. I have a vague memory of having something similar in a Mini clubman when the crankshaft oil seal leaked letting oil onto the clutch but I could be wrong. Hope someone has come across this & could point me in the right direction & save some dealer labour hours!!.

Thanks,

Tim

think ur clutch pad worn off...unless...u used engine..to slow(thong) & brake frequently which a normal driver dun do it...or u like to play wif 1/2 clutch-in...on slope
veri likely it's an ignition/firing or fuel injecting prob...

clutch worn symptom;

difficult to engage the 1st gear...
slip clutch...vehicle move off veri jerky or refuse to move when clutch pedal's released....ADs

corktina

if it were a Ford, i would suspect worn engine mountings which give symptoms of a juddery clutch.

junkyard

Sounds like a clutch problem to me, probably a warped disc or something similar.

TigerTim

Thanks for the replies.

Corktina - I hope you're right. Just had contact from Derek at Delfin Designs in the UK who mainly deal with Talbot. He suggests a loose engine mount (most likely), clutch needs adjusting or the expensive one - failed primary shaft seal. I'm hoping it's not the seal as there does'nt seem to be any clutch slip in the higher gears. Will check the mounts on Saturday.

T.

ds20prefecture

Warpage or slippage should occur in all gears. Drive up a steep hill in 4th with your foot to the floor. If your revs rise but your speed doesn't, the clutch is slipping. I'd go with Corktina's engine mounts theory too. Depending on the model, replacing these can be everybit as involved as doing the clutch.

corktina

feck...i'm good!!!!:D

had the same myself on a Cortina......thats howe I know....made all sorts of plans to change clutch until someone put me straight...it's an easy job on a Cortina...........

TigerTim

It's not too bad to do the engine mounts. It's front wheel drive & I replaced the mount at the back of the gearbox about 2 years ago as the rubber mount was splitting. I'm hoping that one has worked loose - keeping the fingers crossed. No loss of power in any gears even on steep hills so I hope there's no oil on the clutch. Only thing that's confusing is that it doesn't seem to happen from cold. On Sunday I left home OK but when I stopped to park 20 miles later (after one steep hill which it climbed without a problem) it nearly shook up the kids dinner. Using 2nd gear avoids the problem but it's too high.

T

BrianD3

It is strange that it only does it when warmed up and not when cold. I have come across clutch judder in 1st on loads of cars but it always went away after the clutch had been engaged a few times and the engine warmed up. I have heard it said that this is a symptom of a leaky oil seal. Oil gets onto the clutch when teh car is parked up, when started the clutch is contaminated with oil but after a while the oil gets burned off.

stratos

My triumph leaked oil through this seal. I got an oil additive that cured it.
apparantly seal had dried and cracked. fixed the problem though.
I can't think of the name of the stuff at the mo.

Garrett Dee

This is actually my first post to this forum, which I only found today.

I had a similar problem with my '73 911S, most pronounced at lower gears in and around 2000 rpm, went away as the speed went up, and only when the engine good and hot. I tracked it down, by pure luck, to the micro switch which makes when the throttle is closed, to close a fuel cutoff solenoid; cutting off fuel flow to the injectors: the injection pump had been dumping fuel into the cylinders, causing overrevving and judderring when the throttle was re-applied.

Maybe its to do with your fuel flow at idle. Hope this hepls,

Garrett

Porsche 911 2.4S MFI

AMurphy

Few possibilities;
Worn engine mounts, already mentioned. Check the degree of engine twist while pulling against chocks.

Damaged or oil in the clutch, possible, but if so, check the reverse, if the clutch is dragging or sticking, Rev will grate on engagement as it has no synchro.
Oil in the clutch does not always make it slip, typically makes it stick at the wrong times.

however, if the damper springs or one of them were broken, you'd get no other problem other than juddering and or lots of slop on transitions between acc on and acc off.... unless pieces of the broken spring got loose.
Don't panic, sometimes these particular problems can "go away".

73 911, probably had the old Analog EFI systems, I'd expect the 90 version EFI to be a little better. Still possible.

Check the engine and gearbox are actually bolted together properly and securely.

also possible but depends on design; the main input shaft bearing in the box is gone, thus the input shaft is able to rotate off center, particularly if it is one that does not engage in a pilot bearing in the flywheel.
Thus it judders on engagement of 1st gear, then it will work (wear) it's way to 1st & 2nd, etc and in the meanwhile become more and more difficult to engage.
However, if this is the case. the seal will leak Gbox oil, So if you are finding Gbox oil, rather than engine oil in the bell housing, you'll know why.

TigerTim

Unfortunately, engine mounts are fine. Looks like there is some fresh oil staining on the outsite of the bellhousing at the gearbox end. That may be there since the last oil change but it looks newer than that. It's recommended that the gear oil is changed regularly (every 2 years). It's a special light Peugeot gear oil - not EP90. It's a carburettor model so no fuel injection problem. Strange thing is that it only seems to happen when its hot. I moved it around the yard last Saturday before I checked the mounts & there was no judder. A contact in the local Peugeot dealer has given me the name of a mechanic who does some of their commercial gearbox work so I will go & give him a look at it.

Thanks for the help,

T.