Digital Only TV coming to Ireland in 2006

Sponge Bob

Not a DTT trial in Dublin but this current Comreg consultation on Regional DVB licences which runs on for a while. I am surprised that there has been no discussion of the issue in ICDG ...anywhere that I could find so I punted it in here for max effect, ye were all probably buying pints for DMC when this came out.

The possible deployment of Digital Regional licences does not mean that the 4 National channels will go digital in my lifetime but is designed to galvanise RTE networks to a certain degree.

While Comreg witter about high digital takeup in Ireland they gloss over the fact that the tuners in most households are DVB-S or Cable STB and are threfore not regulated by Comreg at all nor do they care what Comreg thinks or does .

The platform Comreg wants to control is the entirely new and separate (to most households) DVB-T tuner of which the UK freeview box is the best known example or even , God Help us, the DVB-H stuff they appear to have latched onto as a possible technological holy grail in Regional Television ( DVB-H reception works on about 3 rarely seen mobile handsets ) . That is to be trialled in Dublin only I assume .

As Comreg are trying to poke RTE into life and get some analogue TV spectrum back off them in this decade , not ACTUALLY create a vibrant regional TV market tier in Ireland , the licences will only last 5 years and will then be abolished. The DVB-H one will not even last that long , 9 months I hear .

They also want to know wherether mpeg 4 is a good thing in conjunction with DVB-T and would appreciate answers to their many questions, along with expressions of interest in running the DVB-H channel ....... and Sponge Bobs very interesting take on an interactive donkey porn channel of course..... all of which must go to

marketframeworkconsult@comreg.ie

by 09/02/2006

List of Questions

Q. 1. Do you agree with ComReg’s assessment of spectrum priorities in the
UHF television bands? If not, please give your reasons.................................................6
Q. 2. Do you agree that there could be a significant risk of harmful
interference to the signals of other authorised users of radio spectrum and that
the effective and appropriate management of the radio spectrum requires that
the relevant apparatus be licensed? If you do not agree, please give reasons for
your answer. ....................................................................................................................
Q. 3. Do you agree with the proposed duration of the licence and the
proposed course of action in the event that national DTT requires access to
spectrum in an area served by regional DVB? Please give reasons for your
answer. .......................................................................................................................... 8
Q. 4. Do you concur with ComReg’s view that a DVB-H service could/should
be provided? What other technologies should be considered for provision of
services to handheld devices?.........................................................................................
Q. 5. Do you agree with ComReg’s proposed spectrum management approach
in relation to the provision of services to handheld devices? If you do not agree,
please give reasons for your answer and suggest an altrtnative approach. ............8
Q. 6. Should the use of MPEG4 compression be required on regional DVB-T
multiplexes?............................................................................................................................
Q. 7. Which service offerings would best introduce innovation and or
competition into the market? Please give reasons for your answer............................9
Q. 8. Do you agree with the proposed Licence award process? Please give
reasons for your answer .............................................................................................................
Q. 9. Do you have suggestions for selection criteria other than those listed
above?.............................................................................................................................................
Q. 10. Do you agree with ComReg’s proposed W.T. licence fee and
administrative levy for Regional TV

watty

I smell politics and the Status Quo of some Deflector Operators (SWCT?)

The national analogue terrestrial TV channels and the national DTT services will
take priority over regional DVB and analogue deflector services. The existing
analogue deflector licences are of one year duration and were issued on the basis that
such operations should not compromise the development of DTT services. ComReg
seeks expressions of interest from anyone interested in applying for digital licences
under the proposed Regional DVB scheme. However, a licensee will not be allowed
to hold both an analogue deflector and regional DVB licence in the same area.
ComReg is not seeking licence applications at this time. Accordingly, respondents
do not need to make an application or nominate frequencies.

IMO this is what "regional" DVB is about.

Though how it can be fitted secondarily to National DTT, when in reality a National DTT on UHF Band IV/V has been shown to degrade a 4 channel UHF analog system bandplan.

Perhaps DTT should be at 1.35GHZ (1300MHz) till UHF Analog is gone.

I'm glad they see Band III as a non runner.

watty

ComReg considers that, in most areas, it should be possible to facilitate a service
utilising the DVB-H standard. Such a service could involve provision of a multiplex
for mobile digital video and radio, which could be associated with data services and
telephony to a single hand held device. Provision of such services using other
systems may also be possible.

Probabily also for Mobile phone operators to offer pay per view video as UK.

watty

With the introduction of
MPEG4 and improved compression techniques, one 8 MHz frequency, which is
currently used to transmit one analogue TV programme service, could transmit 3 High Definition digital television programme services or 8-10 standard definition
digital television programme services using DVB-T. 20-40 digital TV programme
services for a handheld or mobile device could be transmitted using a DVB-H
multiplex. Radio programme services and data could also be transmitted.

Perhaps we might never see MPEG2 DVB-T.

In reality the big saving is with Satellite. One Analog Satellite channel was 25 to 30MHz and one Analog TV channel is 6.5 to 8MHz.

So really to aviod really low bitrate rubbish pitures Terrestrial needs MPEG4 on COFDM rather than current MPEG2.

Sponge Bob

If large media interests such as an 'Examiner' or a 'Leader' were to lead a regional consortium in their own areas to get a slab of bandwidth that would be the end of the deflectors around there. The interesting factoid that the revenue from a given regional DVB-T operator will exceed that of all the deflectors in a region on a per Mhz basis is also helping to focus Comreg.

We also know that Comreg want to pull the MMDS spectrum off Chorus / NTL by 2009 to sit on it for 3G operators ....like they are doing with 2.5-2.6Ghz for the past 18 months.

The issue of cross border interference with UK spectrum from a profusion of deflectors is focusing their mind as well , they would dearly like to clean the spectrum up around there.

This is a most interesting consultation . The views of the general public will of course be thoroughly ignored because Comreg surely have some plan (or plans) up their sleeve .

andrew3

A couple of things i noticed -

DVB transmission equipment of decent quality can run to be expensive - a

A transmission encoder can cost around 15,000euro,

Camera's suitable for broadcast quality pictures tend to be in the region of 50,000euro,

Studio's, Playback facilities, content tend to cost in the regions of millions of euro,

So lets see a "commercial company" comes in and invests all this money on equipment - and 5 years down the line comreg pulls their license --
5 years isn't very long in tv years (SKY Digital is already approaching the 10year mark (8years old)) and the last time I was at conference the break even point was still a bit away.

I asked for permission to put 4 HD P****VU encrypted channels across the country (for test purposes mainly) so far they're still to get back to me! --BCI and ComReg - I won't hold my breath!

The audience in Ireland is tiny, most major broadcasters don't even see england as a potential market! hence why companies like sky have no competition and hold all the cards.

If Comreg and BCI want to create a system which is going to be attractive to potential viewers they have to approach decent sources of entertainment.
HBO has had massive success in Hungry!
Orbit has a service that's value for money and picks the best of everything!

In order to make it attractive to these companies decent prices and offers have to be implemented!

lets face it in the first 6 months your gonna be talkin to yourself!

Ireland is too full of the aul fuddy duddies to acquire anything inovative and as a broadcaster I wouldn't want to touch the Irish market with a 40ft pole!

AS FOR HANDHELD DEVICES 1/2 a gigabyte at 1megabits per second on a 3G network costs.... wait for it.......a whopping 3,000euro!!!!!!!!!!!!!! (wont show u my cell phone bill)

watty

andrew3 wrote:

AS FOR HANDHELD DEVICES 1/2 a gigabyte at 1megabits per second on a 3G network costs.... wait for it.......a whopping 3,000euro!!!!!!!!!!!!!! (wont show u my cell phone bill)

Which is why Phone operators are using DVB-h instead of 3G world wide for PPV and subscription video. Only very expenise stuff will be Video on Demand. Broadcast DVB-h costs the same to operator for 10,000 users as 10. 3G costs the operator about 500x to 1000x as much for 10,000 users as 10.

watty

Comreg has always maintained that the Deflectors are on borrowed time. To close when DDT starts.

However with both BBC and ITV now FTA on DVB-s it can be argued that many "deflector" operators will be hard to justfy their operation or collection of charges.

In fact the Original reason for MMDS is gone too.

Cable and Wireless services need to justfy existance and compete by offering Broadband, phone and Multichannel (not just the typical Analog lineup) to survive against the likes of Digiweb and Sky.

Sponge Bob

watty wrote:

Comreg has always maintained that the Deflectors are on borrowed time. To close when DDT starts.

which is what they propose to do shortly seeing as RTE wont get off their arses fast enough .

However with both BBC and ITV now FTA on DVB-s it can be argued that many "deflector" operators will be hard to justfy their operation or collection of charges.

correct watty, technology has now moved on past the deflectors

In fact the Original reason for MMDS is gone too.

Gigahertz spectrum deflectors with county based monopolies is all they were. at least this scheme is regional and uses normal enough antennae, existing cabling and simply requires a DVB-T receiver.

Does the normal UK freeview box support mpeg 4 does anyone know or are Comreg totally off with the fairies in trying to implement that on 'Irish' DVB-T when there is no equipment out there to decode the signals ????

watty

No the UK boxes do not support MPEG4 anymore than NTL does for Cable or Sky for Satellite.

HD TV will need new boxes ANYWAY. The cheap chips for MPEG4 and HDTV are just out. They can be used in DVB-s, DVB-t or DVB-c boxes. The tuner head remains the same and is mostly the main difference between Terrestrial, Sat and Cable apart from different Firmware.

It makes sense to go for a HD compatible MPEG4 system. Such boxes will be out in comming year in Continental Europe. They will have backward compatibility for regular DTT / MPEG2 as do the HD Satellite boxes.

Hard Disk for PVR may be a standard option as support is built in on the chip sets.

I'd expect the "HD ready" "MPEG4 ready" PVRs to be on market in UK by end of 2006 for DTT, even though there is no date for HD DTT trials (lack of channel space).

Sponge Bob

so Comreg allegedly wants us to have regional HD DVB-T where RTE wont give us SD DVB-T and expects the licencees to recoup that investment in 5 years. . It seems there is a HD DVB-T trial with mpeg4 in France at the moment, see here

it would only be equitable if RTE decided now that whatever digital platform they go with will be HD all along but it does not look equitable to me , in fact it does not even look practical to me .

watty

MPEG4 doesn't mean HD automatically. It means more channels or less bandwidth on Regular resolution DVB-t / DTT. With bonus that if soemone does do a National HD service then you "only" need to buy a new screen.

Sponge Bob

watty wrote:

MPEG4 doesn't mean HD automatically. It means more channels or less bandwidth on Regular resolution DVB-t / DTT. With bonus that if soemone does do a National HD service then you "only" need to buy a new screen.

I appreciate that Watty but there is no point in NOT having a HD compliant DVB-T system in Ireland becuase we have missed the first generation digital and may as well start with the second generation , HD .

Expecting a regional only licencee with a 5 year licence to pathfind this is a bit mean though !

watty

Er I think we agree. In my confused manner thats what I'm saying. There isn't much HD content FTA. I think we would be lucky to get the TG4 backcatalog in WS (They have have been doing mostly WS though TX has been 4:3).

Ulsterman 1690

The issue of cross border interference with UK spectrum from a profusion of deflectors is focusing their mind as well , they would dearly like to clean the spectrum up around there.

Where exactly is this happening. The only border county with a significant number of deflectors is Co Donegal. Deflector licences all stipulate "non-interference with primary services" and the whole deflector licencing scheme was based on a EBU study which said that a properly regulated deflector scheme wouldnt cause any interference outside the Republic.

I fully accept that most of the UK terrestrials on digital satellite the days of deflectors are numbered (as indeed are MMDS and Cable unless they get their fingers out and provide brodband/telephone services) but as long as there is analouge television there will be a place for deflectors

watty

Once folks know they can get even more BBC and ITV *PERFECTLY* for a once off payment they arn't going to contribute to "community collections" to keep a deflector going.. It will take a few years, but they will all die now.

Analog only MMDS is living on borrowed time.

eirman

Surely this thread does not belong in the Satellite forum

(Edit by Watty:
Quite right, that man. I'll move it!)

Mossy Monk

um, its not in the satellite forum

Sponge Bob

NE Ways.

WHO put Comreg up to this consultation . This consultation is occuring becuase of a specific request from someone !

Sponge Bob

Sponge Bob wrote:

This consultation is occuring becuase of a specific request from someone !

I think I found out who is 'driving' this consultation. Its probably the 3G operator '3 Ireland' .

02 Dec 2005

http://www.broadbandtvnews.com/archive_uk/021205.html

"Italian mobile operator buys TV channel
Italian 3G mobile phone operator 3 Italia, owned by Hutchison Whampoa, has announced it is buying Italian TV station Canale 7, the holder of a nationwide digital terrestrial TV licence. The mobile operator said it would set up a network to supply its 4.8 million 3G mobile phone customers with pay-TV and interactive services. 3 Italia added that the combined UMTS/DVB-H technology would launch in the second half of 2006, it said. 3 Italia is buying Canale 7 from Italy's Profit group and, according to Italian daily La Repubblica, the deal is valued at €30-35 million."

watty

I pesume that is in Italy. I wonder what TV channels they want to sell here? Not much of a market for Italian.

P.S. Apart from Sky Italia, if you look at FTA Italian TV which includes the Italian terrestrial you might wonder how much market there is in Italy for Italian TV.

Sponge Bob

Last full week for replying to Comreg (and the BCI) on how they should organise DTT and DVB-H in this country .

Ulsterman 1690

Ive always wondered why anyone in Italy would subscribe to $ky Italia when there are so many FTV channels ?

Granted most/all of them are complete drivel but I cant imagine $ky being any better

L1011

Ulsterman 1690 wrote:

Ive always wondered why anyone in Italy would subscribe to $ky Italia when there are so many FTV channels ?

Granted most/all of them are complete drivel but I cant imagine $ky being any better

Same as Sky's early days - football. And lots of it. Thats about it really, once you have an RAI FTV card for when it (rarely enough) encrypts you should have enough to watch.

Sponge Bob

Last few days to tell Comreg what you think of their 'plan' that someone else seems to have hatched for them

Sponge Bob

Last Day , see post 1 .

rogue-entity

watty wrote:

Which is why Phone operators are using DVB-h instead of 3G world wide for PPV and subscription video. Only very expenise stuff will be Video on Demand. Broadcast DVB-h costs the same to operator for 10,000 users as 10. 3G costs the operator about 500x to 1000x as much for 10,000 users as 10.

How so? I dont see how 3G content delivery should cost an operator anything as they own the network infrastructure.

Mobile Phone networks are just like a massive private exchange network. When one customer places a call to another call, the cell tower picks up the request, looks up to see if the destination is on the same cell, if not it forwards the request to the switching center which then routes the call to the cell of the customer, or on to the switching center of the destination users network, be it a landline or another mobile. When using 3G data services, the cell connects the customer to the access point for the network which connects the phone to the operators private LAN. Lets say the operator has a server that is receiving live TV from an alternate source like an antenna, and then encodes an streams this to 3G customers via the operators LAN, AP and 3G network, how is it any different in terms of cost compared to the same operator investing in DVB-H transmitters, a DVB-H encoder and an antenna to receive the channels from an alternate source.

watty

Each cell only supports a limited amount of traffic. Downloads or watching TV takes much more bandwidth and time than higher revenue earning voice calls per second.

Each cell has limited backhaul bandwidth. VOD or downloads uses separate bandwidth for each user all the way back. Contention may be as high as 1000:1 in Broadband 40:1 type comparison. Since a voice call either works or not, if the cell is full and a neigbouring cell is out of range or full, then you get no call and the network looses voice call revenue.

DVB-h uses NO telecom system bandwidth at all, and the same bandwidth is shared for the whole country basically. In bandwidth cost terms it is 1000 to 10,000 times cheaper than VOD or live video over 3G.

Sponge Bob

and it can be broadcast . The dvb-h capable phone will come with DRM which will entitle you to see it or not ....if you paid that is. The dvb-h signal will be broadcast and the cells will be bigger at the lower spectrum used. Covering areas with 3g already will require c 24 transmitters I have been told

The DRM can be activated or deactivated simply across the 3g interface by the 3G carrier .

watty

Did you miss a beginning of post? I don't quite follow Sponge. It's unfortunate the DRM means Digital Rights Management AND Digital Radio Mondial (The 2nd DRM might be in phones some day too of course, it supports British Isles size cells for radio, still images, text and download broadcasts).