Vocals @ Live Gigs

Savman

howdy

here's one for the soundman or live engineer like meself, I'm looking for tips n tricks on getting the best punch from Vox thru the PA.

I've encountered problems with Vox lost in the mix as we generally Mic up the Kick, Snare, Bass Amp & Guitar Amp and no matter how much gain I give the Lead Vox mic it never quite cuts thru.

Granted the system we use is small enough and we're currently upgrading to a 3k rig but I know we still have to get balance right Front of House.

I've tried using Compression (just weakens the signal) and there's only so much Gain you can give it before dreaded feedback.

Any tips anyone?!?

Doctor J

Quieter amps. Let the PA do the work. Most guitarists and bassists play at an ear-splitting volume live, which is bad. Keep the volume down on stage wherever possible and let the PA make everything loud. Also, in rehearsal, try experimenting with EQ, especially mids, on your vocals. There is no right EQ frequency, it depends on your voice. Try to find a frequency which enhances your voice in relation to the rest of the instruments, espeicially guitar. You might want to try wearing ear plugs too, good ones, whihc may help filter out a lot of the crap.

Savman

Quiter amps we've tried but it is a live band so there's always a degree of volume on stage that we just can't avoid.

Female Vox is the problem and I know the band is disciplined enough to change with the dynamics of a song (playing softly for soft bits etc etc)

We're using Shure Beta 57A's & 58A's which are great until things get rockin'

Guitar amp is always angled so it pointed "inwards" so to cause less spill on vocal mics...

Doctor J

Maybe you'll have to invest in some in-ear monitors for the vocalist? Split the vocal signal onstage and transmit the vocals only to the singer with the regular line back to the desk for the PA.

Something like this or this.

smog

As the Doc says, Eq's are the nicest way or bringing out stuff thats lost in a mix. Raising the mids is the best place to start.
You could always try a different mic like a condenser SENNHEISER E 865

Savman

hmm..was thinking of getting the Shure Beta87A cos we do love the Beta's all round, I'll have a fiddle with the Mids though...

We've discussed in-ears but not keen on the prospect, besides it doesn't really stop the vocal getting lost in FOH mix, it just means the vocalists can hear themselves better

What's the Sennheiser Mic like? I used to have Sennheisers but was never mad about them, granted they were just the cheap versions and I've always wondered what the higher end Sennheiser's would be like

smog

Was never a fan of sennheiser mikes before hearing this one myself. Damn 835's used to always shock me Difference with this is that its a condenser mike, meaning it needs phantom power (not the good bit). The good aspect to been a condenser is that it picks up vocals lovely, rather then having to find the sweet spot with dynamic mikes, or rather missing the sweet spot. Vocals are picked up with more or less the same tone which makes them very easy to EQ if even needed as they appear to have a lot more live to them.
The other bad side of this mike is that it wont take a trashing like the 58s will

Savman

smog wrote:

The other bad side of this mike is that it wont take a trashing like the 58s will

:eek: Then its a no-no! Its gotta be roadworthy!

Gonna check out a condenser at some stage, our desk has Phantom power so thats not a problem (or is it )

What about rack mount stuff, is there any worthwhile processors,compressers, tube preamps, FX etc that I might've overlooked? Anyone?

smog

Well our previuos singer did use this no problems at gigs, just cant bounce it off the floor like a 58. I would say work on the EQ's first anyway rather then adding effects. Good luck

Savman

Cheers smog

Something else troubles me though...only 16 posts since July 2001?!?:p

Eoin Madsen

Upgrading the mic is the cheapest way to improve the vocal, but if you're not getting a reasonable sound with a regular SM58, then all the Beta 58s or vocal condensor mics in the world aren't going to fix your problem. What you're describing is probably the most common problem that occurs in my experiences.

9 times out of 10, the vocal is not what's wrong. It's something (or everything) else. If you find a solution pretty easily with EQ then this is the 1 in 10 scenario . Otherwise you're looking at masking by another aspect of the sound. It's usually the guitars, the cymbals, and sometimes the bass guitar - often in combination with nasty room acoustics. There are a couple of immediate solutions, none of them ideal.

The first thing to do is tune the FOH graphic EQ. You can't compensate for acoustics as well as mix with desk EQ alone. Tuning the monitor graphic should also allow you to get a lot more volume on stage before feedback. Adjusting a graphic is not easily explained... ultimately you're going to just have to experiment with it until it becomes second nature. Personally, I'm not there yet by a long shot.

The next thing I'd try is turning down the amps on stage and relying on the PA for volume. This allows you to mercilessly EQ the amps. The most important frequency range for distinguishing a vocal is 4kHz-6kHz, but everything affects everything else. Straight off, amps often have too much low mid, in my experience. (Regarding the inevitable objections of the guitarist... unless it's an old non-Master Volume valve amp then having the output stage lower will make virtually no difference to the sound. It's not only unusual but actually difficult to achieve powerstage distortion with an MV amp, so unless they really seem to know what they're talking about, disregard without guilt. If it ever is an issue, it's still better to compromise the guitar than everything else.)

This also allows you to reduce the overall volume, which leaves more headroom for the vocal. Lack of headroom is generally the core of the problem. (You can address this directly by upping your wattage, and more importantly, bi- or tri-amping the system. This means a electronic crossover splitting the desk output into two or three frequency bands for two or three corresponding power amps. These go to low speakers, mid speakers, and high speakers. This stops the lows from eating up all of your headroom!)

Another thing to stop and think about is the amount of bass frequencies. Is this a gig or a club? We distinguish bass guitars and bass drums from their higher harmonics, not their fundamentals. If you can't hear one or the other, the solution is not always to add more bass. Try adding a little 250-800hz for a bass guitar, and 2.5k-4k for a kick. Then pull the excess low. If you're adding bass to a bass instrument, then you probably don't have enough gain to begin with. Low frequencies mask everything, so keep them under control.

If reducing everything leaves you without enough overall volume for your venue, then I'd try a different approach. Pull most of the amps from the FOH and allow them to be louder on stage. This leaves a lot more amplification for your vocal, and also gives it spacial separation, which, though not the ideal way to achieve it, will make the sounds slightly easier for the ear to distinguish. If the band span more than 2 or 3 metres from one side to the other though, you still need to make sure there's direct sound going to the monitors. The latency from the guitars to even the drums can become enough to put the band's time out slightly with each other (it's cumulative from player to player and back), and believe it or not, an out of time band will sound less clear than a tight one.

At the end of the day, what really causes the masking is usually poor quality amps, cymbals, drums, guitars, and venues. Needless to say, having a weak singer to begin with doesn't help. In the venue, too much reflection off the walls will make the sound unfixable. You can correct for frequency colouration and a certain amount of resonant peaking/cancellation etc, but you can't make up for the wash of noise that builds up from the sound bouncing around the room. When it comes to music gear - cheap amps sound cheap. I'm not going to get into the obscure debates of Epiphone vs Gibson, solidstate vs valve, low cost vs expensive etcetera. It's not even as simple as "you get what you pay for" unfortunately. But there's good gear and bad gear. And the more stuff you put together at once, the more obvious the differences become. Play a good Les Paul into a clean Vox AC30 and you simply won't have one tenth of the problems mixing it with a vocal as you would with an Epi into an MG. Subjective preference of "tone" completely aside, I know this from experience.

In-ear monitors - I wouldn't touch them. If the **** hits the fan, you end up responsible for someone losing their hearing. If and when the band are investing, they fork out on expensive ones. And see an ear specialist first. Once you're getting that serious, musician or engineer, you should be looking after your ears. Sorry to preach, but it's better to be a little over cautious imo.

Just regarding the compressor - the basic function of compression is to reduce a signal whenever it exceeds the threshold. Most common usage requires boosting the output gain to compensate for that reduction. A short attack and release can help flatten dynamic in the source signal quite effectively. If it's sounding weaker after compression, then something is not right. It can help to increase the vocal loudness, which should be of some use in this scenario. But, like upgrading the microphone, it's not a solution in itself. An SM58 with no compression can sound fantastic.

Apologies for the massive rant. :rolleyes: My first of 2006. Happy new year, everyone. :v:

smog

Savman wrote:

Cheers smog

Something else troubles me though...only 16 posts since July 2001?!?:p

yea haven't been here in awhile lol. Nice post Eoin some good advice there

Savman

Holy jeebus Eoin :eek:

I guess therein ends the thread

Cheers for your input.

Custom22

Completely spot on Eoin. Ideally all guitarists should be using small wattage combos in isolation boxes. That way you have a great, controlable, isolated sound. PA technology is really advanced enough to faithfully portray that sound on stage and out front with the right monitors and speaker set-up. The days of 100watt stacks are over i think. There are many bands, Cheap Tick, being one I think, that use this setup but still keep fake amps on stage to keep the rock spectacle. :v:

90% of gigs are stupidly loud really. The only time you may need phyiscally bigger amps is for bass, but even still, they don't have to be enormous.

Usually what happens is the guitarist goes out and buys his 100watt stack. The bassist then has to go and buy a 500 watt machine just to keep up. the drummer at this stage is having a hard time keeping up and so they have to put him through the 5000watt PA just for it to osund right. The vocals then aren't cutting and so on. There is no reason that **** has to be htat loud! Well maybe rock n' roll I suppose but seriously I think its a waste of cash. You cansave loads by going smaller and consequently, it will, in many cases, sound better.

selephonic

Instead of the Senn 865 there's always the sm86, which kicks ass in my opinion. It's also a handheld condenser but it's an sm so it's pretty sturdy, have a look in the village, they use them in there.

Savman

cool, have looked @ the SM86 seems like a good proper vocal mic will help

On stage we use a 1x12" Guitar Cab and 1x15" Bass Cab and both are just audible above overall level of Kit etc (maaan snare drums are loud:eek: ) but I consider it a "rehearsal volume" and we're not doing any heavy rock in fact quite the opposite...

Gonna try a few of the things mentioned here though, many thanks:D

Paladin

Custom22 wrote:

You cansave loads by going smaller and consequently, it will, in many cases, sound better.

Agreed.

I have a 150W amp that I gig at about a quarter volume (except for really large venues where our substandard PA needs help, and we havent the cash to upgrade).

On hindsight, I got a great deal so I would certainly do it again, but in more usual circumstances Id recomment going for a quality smaller amp, a shure SM57 or something similar (got mine a few weeks ago) and have a decent PA for the band.

One of the biggest pains in getting a good sound for my band is our drummer doesnt control his volume. On a big stage this is not such a problem, but in a small pub it screws up sound balance. You end up getting pushing your amp up, then the PA, then the drummer hits things louder...all in all amateurish screw ups. My band is certainly guilty of this. Pain in the hole to get the drummer to control himself though.

Doctor J

I can say from the drummers point of view, playing quiet can be unnatural, especially for more uptempo, energetic songs. Imagine your amp had no volume control and was just naturally very loud and the only way you had to control it was through the subtlety of your touch on the strings. Now imagine playing a rocking song in that circumstance and trying to play it quietly... so go easy on your drummer

You can work around this by trying different drum tunings, different skins and dampening, make the drums less boomy, though that can sound **** too and make your drummer very unhappy. Unless your drummer likes Vdrums you just have to work around it, such is life with acoustic instruments.

John

Just get rid of the vocals full stop

Southern Lord Records wrote:

MAXIMUM VOLUME YIELDS MAXIMUM RESULTS

Savman

nah we need vox

Its not Drummers fault, or anyone's fault for that matter and we do play at normal volume, low for quite songs, loud for fast rocky songs so there's no way around this!