Push here?

NickyOD

You have 8400 chips left and the blinds have just jumped to 800/1500. 20 minute levels. Final table with 9 left. You are the shortest stack. 4 places pay €700/400/200/150. It's a rebuy and you invested €80.

You are UTG with 9-7 offsuit.

Push?

padraig_f

Personally I wouldn't. When you're UTG at a full table and short-stacked it's fairly likely someone has a hand that can call you. With over 5 BBs I'm happy to let the blinds pass me here with and wait for a better spot. I would however be moving in some time in the next 5 or 6 hands.

Iago

Push I think.

You're close to 50:50 against any random hand, although it will take a good hand to call you at this point.

With you pushing UTG you're representing a big hand and unlikely to be called by a large range of hands, maybe AA-TT,AK-AJ,KQ...possibly depending on the standard of player. Against this range you've still got a 33% chance of winning the hand.

You're going to lose a 1/4 of your stack in blinds in the next two hands where others will have acted in front of you making it more difficult to make a move. I think I'd push here. You push and win and you get some wriggle room, if you fold and lose the blinds then you lose any folding equity you might have not to mention that even if you double up after this you're still in a lot of trouble.


I'm sure there's a math way of answering this based on Buyin against reward, but for me the $80 is gone and I don't think about it anymore, so whether I'd spent $20 or $80 it would be the same move for me.

Amaru

This isn't that dissimilar to the KJ hand i posted about a week ago. Unless your stack got knocked down to this much on a previous hand, you should have made this push when in position on the previous orbit. If it was, then its an autopush with any 2. Winning the blinds here gives you a whole bunch of options like stealing from the big blind, stealing from the button etc. I can't see you getting called here and winning, but thats the risk you're taking. Also, how much you have invested so far in this tournament shouldn't factor at all in your decision.

mewso

Auto-push for me. I don't mind gambling with a caller either.

NickyOD

Amaru wrote:

This isn't that dissimilar to the KJ hand i posted about a week ago. Unless your stack got knocked down to this much on a previous hand, you should have made this push when in position on the previous orbit. If it was, then its an autopush with any 2. Winning the blinds here gives you a whole bunch of options like stealing from the big blind, stealing from the button etc. I can't see you getting called here and winning, but thats the risk you're taking. Also, how much you have invested so far in this tournament shouldn't factor at all in your decision.

I would never let myself get this short, but lost to a shortstack when he reraised my Q-9 and I was priced into calling him only for him to dog me with Q-7, then lost an all-in to the same player next hand with JJ V his KK. Then I pushed with K-7 and was doubled up by J-7, then the blinds went up and I was still crippled.

I think its perfectly fine to take a 40/60 situation in this spot when there is zero chance to move up the money by waiting. Also pushing UTG allows me to represent a bigger hand, while if I pass through the blinds I will have no pushing power and give the BB an autocall. I pushed and both the blinds called me. Then the clown in the SB bet into a dry sidepot with King high on the flop and almost kept me in but I missed 10 outs twice and busted.

I wasn't quite sure at the time but I think a push is correct here when you've got such a small % of the tournament chips with a tight blind strucutre still far from the money.

Amaru

You raise a couple of points here that have been on my mind lately about tournament play. Before we get to this though, i disagree with both you and Iago on this point

Also pushing UTG allows me to represent a bigger hand

I don't think normal positional hand ranges applies in this situation, as most people will recognise this as a short stacked push/blind steal attempt, probably with Ace-anything, so they're probably not fearing a big pocket pair. This widening out of peoples calling ranges is of course bad news for you.

I think its perfectly fine to take a 40/60 situation in this spot when there is zero chance to move up the money by waiting.

I agree with this. At this point, letting the cards decide the outcome may be your best option. You don't have the chips to play poker with, so you're only option is an all in. You're at best going to be a 50/50, but more likely 60/40, and at worst, 80/20. As it stands though, 60/40 isn't all that bad given your stack, so you have to gamble with it.

but lost to a shortstack when he reraised my Q-9 and I was priced into calling him only for him to dog me with Q-7,

This is something else i want to hear peoples thoughts on, because its a situation i've found myself in in several mtt's lately. It has to do with Gamblers Ruin, something which i think factors highly in tournament play. If you're playing with a smallish stack, and you're in the blinds, do pot odds still apply if taking correct odds will leave you crippled, or is it better to pass? I can give an example if needed, but basically the question is whether its correct to pass up marginally +ev situations when your stack is less than 10BB?

Ste05

Amaru wrote:

This is something else i want to hear peoples thoughts on, because its a situation i've found myself in in several mtt's lately. It has to do with Gamblers Ruin, something which i think factors highly in tournament play. If you're playing with a smallish stack, and you're in the blinds, do pot odds still apply if taking correct odds will leave you crippled, or is it better to pass? I can give an example if needed, but basically the question is whether its correct to pass up marginally +ev situations when your stack is less than 10BB?

If it's +EV, I take it. You're already in bad shape so you need every edge you can get. I'd like to hear this example though.

mewso

Amaru wrote:

I don't think normal positional hand ranges applies in this situation, as most people will recognise this as a short stacked push/blind steal attempt, probably with Ace-anything, so they're probably not fearing a big pocket pair. This widening out of peoples calling ranges is of course bad news for you.

I disagree with this unless you are playing at the university of poker because most players won't recognise any desperation in your move due to their general stupidity. The whole point of pushing at this stage is because only particularly good players will recognise it for what is is. Your average player will only spot the "low stack push" when you have maybe 2 or 3 BB left. The best thing about the push is that the bad players won't recognise it for what it is and the good players will still want something at least marginal before calling and only if they are in late position.

SuperO'B

NickyOD wrote:

Then the clown in the SB bet into a dry sidepot with King high on the flop and almost kept me in but I missed 10 outs twice and busted.

I wasn't quite sure at the time but I think a push is correct here when you've got such a small % of the tournament chips with a tight blind strucutre still far from the money.

ya I'm the clown who bet into the dry sidepot. I would like if you could point out where I went wrong for future reference. As i saw it, I was middling to low stack on chips and had to build my stack as quick as possible with the blinds going up as quick as they were.
I knew the BB was ahead of me but I put him on a fairly weak pair and was right. I knew you hadnt much as you were low stack and were pushed to play a hand you wouldnt usually play.
I then put in a middling bet of 4500. This amount looking like a milking bet, along with the fact that I was betting into a dry sidepot was enough to make the BB think I had something and fold which was the intention.
Now I have taken out the BB who was ahead of me and am left against a low stack all in. The pot wasnt a bad size and I needed every chip! As i see it, I have cut my opponents in half, one of which as ahead of me, and have given myself the best chance a winning the pot. i reckoned I was ahead with my K 10 and was correct.
Any advice would be most welcome.(please refrain from referring to me as a clown again ;-)

MGrah

Ste05 wrote:

If it's +EV, I take it. You're already in bad shape so you need every edge you can get. I'd like to hear this example though.

This is something I struggle with as well. I think if you're a good enough player to get back into this position repeatedly then this is fine. If you're not then that's where I have a problem with it.
To use an extreme example, let's say you're on the bubble in the WSOP, you are getting 5/1 to call off all your chips and have an open ended straight draw, so 8 outs and just under 5/1 chance of hitting.
Now pot odds say this is a good call, but imo you would need to believe you can get back into this position 4 more times in order for the pot odds to apply. Otherwise you are sticking all your chips in on the bubble when you will lose about 5 times of out 6.

Anyone got opinions on this? I think it applies to much smaller mtts if you are not confident enough that you will be back in that position enough times. (of course the big hitters here will say that you should not be playing in that case)
I'm interested in peoples opinions on this because I am at the later stages of one of Party's steps tournaments and would be interested in advice.

NickyOD

SuperO'B wrote:

ya I'm the clown who bet into the dry sidepot. I would like if you could point out where I went wrong for future reference. As i saw it, I was middling to low stack on chips and had to build my stack as quick as possible with the blinds going up as quick as they were.
I knew the BB was ahead of me but I put him on a fairly weak pair and was right. I knew you hadnt much as you were low stack and were pushed to play a hand you wouldnt usually play.
I then put in a middling bet of 4500. This amount looking like a milking bet, along with the fact that I was betting into a dry sidepot was enough to make the BB think I had something and fold which was the intention.
Now I have taken out the BB who was ahead of me and am left against a low stack all in. The pot wasnt a bad size and I needed every chip! As i see it, I have cut my opponents in half, one of which as ahead of me, and have given myself the best chance a winning the pot. i reckoned I was ahead with my K 10 and was correct.
Any advice would be most welcome.(please refrain from referring to me as a clown again ;-)

Ya Big eeegit Well if anything the post got you out of "lurk" mode. There aren't enough Limerick posters here...... or are there?

I don't remember the stacks you and Shane had but if you correctly guessed I didn't have much then you should isolate me by reraising preflop. There are very few hands Shane can then call you with and he is certainly good enough a player to fold a midpair in that spot if you do raise and even if he isn't its only a race. It hink think making aminimum reraise would have been a good play there since you correctly guessed your K-T was way ahead of my range.

Postflop If you have some kind of draw then I think its fine to isolate an all-in, but in this case you had king high and no draw, and when you bet you put 4500 into a pot of about 2500 giving Shane almost 7-1 to call you, which makes his fold quite bad also but he was as surprised as I was that you had nothing.

Also I am not someone you want to keep alive at a final table. You can check it down and get me out here and still win the pot, which is what would have happened, but by taking Shane out you greatly increase my chances of trebling through. Since you hit your Ten on the turn you could have made a bet there.

I don't think you can use getting Shane out as an excuse to justify your play after the flop here. If that's what you wanted then you should have been prepared to isolate preflop.

Best of luck.

N.

SuperO'B

I can see what your saying alright. The reason I didn't re-raise pre flop is that I was trying to sneak a look at the flop and I didn't think Shane was going to just call with an all in and caller already. From what I saw, he generally goes all in or leaves it go. I also didnt want to re-raise with k 10 with a low chip stack and get caught by the bollox by the BB.
I had a look for cheap and then made the move to get rid of him. If he had re-raised pre-flop I would have let the hand go. I'm sure you were the biggest danger at the final table even with a low chip stack but I didnt mind having another low chip stack like myself around for the time being.:D

NickyOD

SuperO'B wrote:

I can see what your saying alright. The reason I didn't re-raise pre flop is that I was trying to sneak a look at the flop and I didn't think Shane was going to just call with an all in and caller already. From what I saw, he generally goes all in or leaves it go. I also didnt want to re-raise with k 10 with a low chip stack and get caught by the bollox by the BB.
I had a look for cheap and then made the move to get rid of him. If he had re-raised pre-flop I would have let the hand go. I'm sure you were the biggest danger at the final table even with a low chip stack but I didnt mind having another low chip stack like myself around for the time being.:D

How much did you have left after smooth calling preflop?

SuperO'B

bout 11,000 i think

NickyOD

SuperO'B wrote:

bout 11,000 i think

Then its all in preflop or fold preflop. What do you do if shane reraises you after the flop when you have more than half your chips already in the pot?

SuperO'B

that is the problem with it alright. I would have folded and lived to fight another day if he re-raised. i guess thats why its gambling...i'll learn for next time. Not a bad overall pot to win really for 18 players

kincsem

NickyOD wrote:

You have 8400 chips left and the blinds have just jumped to 800/1500. 20 minute levels. Final table with 9 left. You are the shortest stack. 4 places pay €700/400/200/150. It's a rebuy and you invested €80.

You are UTG with 9-7 offsuit.

Push?

I wouldn't with eight players behind me.

If we were down to 6 or 7 then this move is more likely to work for two reasons - people will be avoiding risks trying to coast into the money, and you would have less players to get through.

I do like to go all-in before the blinds get to me for the simple reason that you are robbing blinds rather than defending your own big blind - you are building your stack.

We need more information.

• Are the big stacks down the table or are they to your immediate left? If they are to your immediate left they are more likely to fold and the smaller stacks are also likely to fold behind them. A move by the big stacks to your left may result in a raise (or all-in) further down the table - they would fear that, so they are unlikely to take you on.
• Another point we don't know is how small is your small stack compared to the others. If other stacks are only slightly larger then I would wait and let the other small stacks make the decision when the blinds get to them.
• Have you been caught in a bluff recently or have you had the goods when called?

But what do I know? I haven't cashed in this millennium.:(

Amaru

musician wrote:

I disagree with this unless you are playing at the university of poker because most players won't recognise any desperation in your move due to their general stupidity. The whole point of pushing at this stage is because only particularly good players will recognise it for what is is. Your average player will only spot the "low stack push" when you have maybe 2 or 3 BB left. The best thing about the push is that the bad players won't recognise it for what it is and the good players will still want something at least marginal before calling and only if they are in late position.

I disagree, and the defense of my argument can be seen in what happened. He pushed in early position, and had 2(apparently inexperienced) callers, 1 who called with KT, and the other who called with a medium pocket pair. Does that sound like they were expecting to be up against a big hand? You say bad players won't recognise it for what it is, but i think the opposite is true. They won't recognise the significance of the UTG push ie the strength you're supposedly representing. Also, there's not much difference between 2/3 BBs and a little over 5BB. Either way the person is dead in the water, and anything they do will be in desperation(at least IMO).

I don't remember the stacks you and Shane had but if you correctly guessed I didn't have much then you should isolate me by reraising preflop. There are very few hands Shane can then call you with and he is certainly good enough a player to fold a midpair in that spot if you do raise and even if he isn't its only a race. It hink think making aminimum reraise would have been a good play there since you correctly guessed your K-T was way ahead of my range.

I really don't get what you're mad at here. You advocate isolating, and thats what he did, albeit on the flop, rather than before it. In fact, i think if the player in question wanted to isolate you, then he did it in the correct way(at least according to the opponents he was playing against). All too often i see people trying to isolate preflop, but they still get callers because they have their previous bets right in front of them, and don't want to just give up on their money. It's much easier to push people off their hands after the flop, when the money has gone in the pot, than when its in front of them. In your opponent still feels he's ahead of you, even though he has king high, but is behind to the second caller, then whats wrong with this? That said though, i've never really understood the concept of checking it down, so if you want to explain it to me, please do.

EDIT: Ste, i'll elaborate on what i'm getting at about small edges tomorrow, when my head is a little less fried. I've a feeling if i try to make an example right now, it won't make much sense.

SuperO'B

yes! we have a believer!