Middle class standard of life

Cantab.

What salary do you need to have a middle-class way of life?

By this I mean:

- 3-bed semi-D in the suburb
- max 45min commute to work time
- 40 hour week
- 2 kids
- able to support a partner at home
- one 2 week holiday a year
- one or two long weekends away
- VHI, pension etc.

I was thinking ~€80k-€90 for a 30 year mortgage in a 3-bed house in Raheny, 2 school-going kids and all the trappings.

In the past this was a rather modest way to live: Have things really changed that much that this middle class existence is, for the majority of people, but a pipe-dream and completely unachievale?

Dub13

- 3-bed semi-D in the suburb * Yes
- max 45min commute to work time *Yes its 15 min on my bike
- 40 hour week * about 45 hours
- 2 kids * two girls one 3 and one nearly a year.
- able to support a partner at home * wife stays at home,we get by
- one 2 week holiday a year * yes at least
- one or two long weekends away * yes
- VHI, pension etc. * no VHI but a good pension


I do the above on about 50k

tabatha

- 3-bed semi-D in the suburb * Yes
- max 45min commute to work time (yes for husband, i dont work)
- 40 hour week * about 45 hours
- 2 kids * one daughter
- able to support a partner at home * i stay at home
- one 2 week holiday a year * at least two
- one or two long weekends away * yes
- VHI, pension etc. * vhi, starting pension next year (too young!)

70k+

dont know what that makes me?

OfflerCrocGod

tabatha wrote:

starting pension next year (too young!)

You are never too young to start a pension.

daveirl

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damnyanks

Company pensions are useless. They devalue so much over time. If you don't have to pay anything towards it then fine.

Go get a private pension instead

daveirl

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nesf

daveirl wrote:

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Are there better ways? Bearing in mind that a pension tends not to take up a lot of your time, I'd lean towards having one. I wouldn't depend on it and I wouldn't ignore other investments but I don't see a good reason for not having one tbh.

whippet

- 3-bed semi-D in the suburb - YES
- max 45min commute to work time - YES
- 40 hour week - YES
- 2 kids - NONE
- able to support a partner at home - If I wanted to
- one 2 week holiday a year - at least 2 or 3
- one or two long weekends away - at least 3-4
- VHI, pension etc. - both

on €50k a year and possible as for item four my count reads Zero.

Children are proof that the biggest motivator in life is not money!!

daveirl

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TempestSabre

Cantab. wrote:

...
I was thinking ~€80k-€90 for a 30 year mortgage in a 3-bed house in Raheny, 2 school-going kids and all the trappings.

In the past this was a rather modest way to live: Have things really changed that much that this middle class existence is, for the majority of people, but a pipe-dream and completely unachievale?

I'm amazed that so many seem to be able to do this and more. Everyone seems to be on 60+ a year.

coolhandluke

TempestSabre wrote:

I'm amazed that so many seem to be able to do this and more. Everyone seems to be on 60+ a year.

And up to their eyeballs in dept,i would be aware of people who have remortgaged their houses 2-3 times,credit cards,credit union loans.etc etc

It will all have to be paid for eventually !:eek:

A Dub in Glasgo

It really depends when people bought their property (if they are bought)

I knocked back a €67k job in Dublin because I effectively could not afford to even get to about 65% of the standard of living I have here in Glasgow. A family home is a killer in Dublin coupled with debt that is stifling.

tabatha

A Dub in Glasgo wrote:

It really depends when people bought their property (if they are bought)

I knocked back a €67k job in Dublin because I effectively could not afford to even get to about 65% of the standard of living I have here in Glasgow. A family home is a killer in Dublin coupled with debt that is stifling.

i really agree with this. i was one of the lucky ones, i bought my house 11 years ago for 32k!!!

TempestSabre

True a smaller mortgage makes a big difference, and certainly I see people in this position. However you see a lot of people not in that position aswell.

nesf

daveirl wrote:

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*nods*

That's fair enough. I misread your post as a "don't bother with a pension".

daveirl

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nesf

daveirl wrote:

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Saving stamps in primary school leave their mark don't they?

~Leanne~

My god what do yous people work as to earn 70k a year!!!!! I earn 25k, i just about get by.

OfflerCrocGod

~Leanne~ wrote:

My god what do yous people work as to earn 70k a year!!!!! I earn 25k, i just about get by.

They move paper around.

Khannie

I reckon it'd be comfortably doable on 60K.

I have one child and a 4 bed detached house in North County Dublin. No debt apart from the (ENORMOUS) mortgage. My wife's finishing work to be a stay at home mum on Friday (lucky cow! ). Our gross was about 90K, that will hopefully drop to around 55 when I move jobs in the new year. We expect to be fairly streched on that (but we are cutting out childminding fees, etc.) becuase of the large mortgage but reckon we could support 3 children (factoring wage increases in by the time we have 2 more).

Leanne: I'd say highly skilled jobs and management are only capable of that kind of money. Most people I know earn between 20 and 40K.

edit: ROFL@god faq

Running Bing

who are the people then with 100,000+ mercs, beamers and range rovers that seem to clog up every road in Dublin? if a person on 70,000 can only afford a basic standard of living why do you see so much wealth in this country and what are they doing?

I must say as a student who has lived at home all my life this thread is shocking. And a little depressing:(

David19

Plent of people make a lot of money in Ireland. Doctors, lawyers, accountants, dentists, some engineers and computer programmers, business owners, property developers, even tradesmen like brick layers, electricians etc.

I believe over 2000 lawyers make over €200,000 in Ireland and around 1000 doctors make the same.

Also just because you drive a €100,000 merc doesn't mean you can really afford one.

0utshined

Babybing wrote:

who are the people then with 100,000+ mercs, beamers and range rovers that seem to clog up every road in Dublin? if a person on 70,000 can only afford a basic standard of living why do you see so much wealth in this country and what are they doing?

No mortgage + Empty nesters = oodles of disposable income

Running Bing

David19 wrote:

Plent of people make a lot of money in Ireland. Doctors, lawyers, accountants, dentists, some engineers and computer programmers, business owners, property developers, even tradesmen like brick layers, electricians etc.

I believe over 2000 lawyers make over €200,000 in Ireland and around 1000 doctors make the same.

Also just because you drive a €100,000 merc doesn't mean you can really afford one.

Thats what I would have thought about docs, lawyers, accountants etc. But any salary satatistics Ive seen just dont back that up. I would have thought 90k was top end.

But as homer would say "you can use statistics to prove anything, 75% of people know that":D

ButtermilkJack

Khannie wrote:

...

Leanne: I'd say highly skilled jobs and management are only capable of that kind of money. Most people I know earn between 20 and 40K....

I would love to agree with this but unfortunately the reality is that those people making 'high' money are not generally highly skilled or indeed management. Don't get me wrong, a lot are, and deservedly so, and of course it is not at all true to generalise, but it would seem that a lot of people working in the public sector ('government jobs') are earning €50k-€60k+ because the government has to pay well. Also these jobs tend to be overfilled and, as an earlier poster mentioned, most of these people just push paper around. Not to offend anyone in any job but I have come across people in government jobs who seem to have nothing to do all day.
(Obviously I can't speak from experience so I am open to arguement on this point )

Gurgle

Khannie wrote:

I reckon it'd be comfortably doable on 60K.

Sure, if you bought your house
a) 7+ years ago
or
b) in north Leitrim

Starting from now, I think the OP's estimate of €80-€90k for double income family or €60-€70 for single income (saving childcare, 2nd car and various other expenses).

Even then you'd be well stretched to buy a good sized house in a nice-ish area of Dublin.

TempestSabre

ButtermilkJack wrote:

I would love to agree with this but unfortunately the reality is that those people making 'high' money are not generally highly skilled or indeed management. Don't get me wrong, a lot are, and deservedly so, and of course it is not at all true to generalise, but it would seem that a lot of people working in the public sector ('government jobs') are earning €50k-€60k+ because the government has to pay well. Also these jobs tend to be overfilled and, as an earlier poster mentioned, most of these people just push paper around. Not to offend anyone in any job but I have come across people in government jobs who seem to have nothing to do all day.
(Obviously I can't speak from experience so I am open to arguement on this point )

From experience, theres some who do alright. But, from experience, it applies equally to people in the private sector especially in large companies/corporation, where there no metrics on performance etc.

Khannie

Gurgle...Yeah, I meant as a single income, so 80-90 with childminding etc. but the OP did say with single income. I earn well < 60K and I have a nice house in a nice area that I only bought this year (though I did have some capital from my last house.).

Babybing: I know someone earning less than 40K driving a 28K car. It's a choice to spend more on your car than your house (or vice-versa).

Gurgle

Khannie wrote:

Gurgle...Yeah, I meant as a single income, so 80-90 with childminding etc. but the OP did say with single income.

doh!, misread it.

Khannie wrote:

Babybing: I know someone earning less than 40K driving a 28K car. It's a choice to spend more on your car than your house (or vice-versa).

I think the vast majority of people buying expensive cars these days are either 45+ with low(or no) mortgages or single 20-somethings earning 25-35k and living at home. They can't even think about the property ladder but they have a solid income with practically no living expenses.

Khannie

Gurgle wrote:

They can't even think about the property ladder but they have a solid income with practically no living expenses.

Yup. I think that's it in a nutshell. There's no way I could afford a 28K car. No way in hell. My own car is worth less than 8K and I intend driving it into the ground (while properly maintaining it). Cars are just a big money hole.

Gurgle

Khannie wrote:

My own car is worth less than 8K and I intend driving it into the ground (while properly maintaining it). Cars are just a big money hole.

Hah!
Lol, mine cost €2k 2 years ago, and I fully expect to get another 2 years out of it on nothing except spark plugs and oil.
Im gonna drive way underground before I give up on it!

Sangre

Ughh..the cost of living in Ireland is depressing.
I just look at my house. Parents bought it for £50k about 20 years ago and now its probably pushing a million due to its prime location near the Luas, m50 and n11. Also on a quiet cul de sac.
There is no way in hell I would ever justify paying this much for the house. Its just a small 4 bedroom house that happens to be in south Dublin.
So that brings me to a cross road, do I stay in Ireland or move abroad?
Doesn't help that I'm studying law (specialised to Ireland) so that makes any attempts to get out of here even harder (more exams etc).
At 20 I'll have to decide pretty soon the approach I'm going to take.

By the by, antecdotal evidence tells me people earning over say €80k as a doctor/lawyer use their disposable income to invest, invest, invest. Something people on lower incomes can't. Also lawyers generally get great business contacts.

daveirl

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Sangre

So therefore the houses are cheaper?
I'm not sure I get your point. Why is that bad?

ronbyrne2005

if you pass through richer areas of dublin you will see a lot of ordinary cars parked in drives,well off people usually realise that expensive cars are a waste of money as they go down in value so much so quick.

me and my friends are all graduates,in years gone by all would have easily been able to afford a car nice house within a few years of graduating.nowadays being a graduate doesnt get you as much as it used to. even the lawyers/doctors of today cant buy houses where the doctors/lawyers of the previous decades bought their first homes.ranelagh blackrock clontarf etc used to be the sort of place professionals bought ,now its too pricey unless you were able to invest in property over past 20 years and make a fortune like so many otherwise unskilled people have or have set up a business which is where the real money is,even owning a small business could make ya 100k a year.

ronbyrne2005

if i had a house in dublin i'd sell up and move somehwere with nice weather and cheap housing,i'd buy a couple of apartments for the price of the dublin house and live off the rental income.

David19

ronbyrne2005 wrote:

if you pass through richer areas of dublin you will see a lot of ordinary cars parked in drives,well off people usually realise that expensive cars are a waste of money as they go down in value so much so quick.

This is an important point. Sangre touched on it too with respect to investing. You don't get rich by spending all your money. Generally richer people are smarter with money i.e they don't rack up big credit bills, they don't buy very expensive cars, they don't take out loans for frivolous reasons, they do invest money etc. Being smart with money helps a lot and I think a lot of people are lacking in this regard. Of course it is easier if you have a large disposable income but really everyone should practice it.

OfflerCrocGod

daveirl wrote:

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Houses in Ireland are over 25% overvaluated when compared to rent prices; also in the last 10 years house prices have gone up 208%, more then in any other country in the world. We need the ECB to up the interest rates and all signs are that they will, Thank God! Hopefully it will make a difference to our overheated market.

Julesie

I feel like i'm in a similar boat to Sangre, I'm due to graduate this year with a good degree and a decent starting salary, at least for someone of my age (20).
However it really is depressing to see people five years ahead of me crippled with mortgages they can barely sustain just to get some 3 bed semi with an hours commute.
It certainly doesnt seem like a good return for their investment, especially if you couple it with the fact that many analysts believe the housing market to be overvalued and im sure the prospect of negative equity doesn't sound all that appealing to them.

daveirl

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A Dub in Glasgo

It really depends on where you want to live abroad. If you wanted a family home within 10 miles of London, you may struggle to find it cheaper than within 10 miles of Dublin although the transport options in London will be far superior to Dublin. Any other city in the UK will be cheaper sometimes a lot cheaper. I do not know what the situation is in other European countries.

For example, you could buy this 4 bedroom house in Glasgow which is for sale near me. A couple of minutes walk to the train station and the train takes 16 minutes into the city centre. If you needed to drive, it would take about 35 minutes peak time to travel the 7 miles into the city centre. All this for £175k (about €260k) which I would consider expensive. Now check a similar property in Dublin - you will be looking a very long time to get anywhere near it for the price.

Johnny Storm

David19 wrote:

Plent of people make a lot of money in Ireland. Doctors, lawyers, accountants, dentists, some engineers and computer programmers, business owners, property developers, even tradesmen like brick layers, electricians etc.

I believe over 2000 lawyers make over €200,000 in Ireland and around 1000 doctors make the same.

Also just because you drive a €100,000 merc doesn't mean you can really afford one.

IMHO the €200,000 is the income they actually declare for tax purposes. People in non-PAYE jobs , esp those who normally receive payment by cash or cheque, can be a lot more "flexible" in how much tax they pay.