is this kratty?

kerinsp

http://www.ebaumsworld.com/afroninja.html

pma-ire

kerinsp wrote:

http://www.ebaumsworld.com/afroninja.html

Nope!

It's just Kara-ppy

kenpo_dave

No. This is Karate

http://www.shidokan.it/Video/PresentazioneKnocOut.avi

And this

http://www.gojuryu.neu.edu/videos.html

And this

http://www.hiokidojo.com/movies/1996/Kumite-wmp-dsl.asf

The first two are also examples of what real point sparring looks like. The third is kyokushin kumite. The reason in this clip that only one guy is realy fighting is that the training for the blue belt, the other guy is just a human dummy.

kenpo_dave

I do agree that theres alot of crap being taught out there with the name Karate put on it. But some people seem to go a find the crappest video clips they can and use them as a base for argument. Im not saying that kerinsp was trying to start an argument, but both he and JK also used "anecdotal evidence" when they posted their clips.

john kavanagh

kenpo_dave wrote:

I do agree that theres alot of crap being taught out there with the name Karate put on it. But some people seem to go a find the crappest video clips they can and use them as a base for argument. Im not saying that kerinsp was trying to start an argument, but both he and JK also used "anecdotal evidence" when they posted their clips.

eh no i didn't dave. i did not present any anecdotal evidence to back up any argument....mainly because i didn't put forward an argument!
all i did was post a clip and asked the question did anybody on this forum see it as 'fighting'. everybody seems to agree that its not, my point was i've had discussions with people before who did think it was 'fighting'. that is all, nothing more nothing less.

pma-ire

http://www.gojuryu.neu.edu/videos.html

This is point sparring! As in one point sparring!!

Fine for kids and white belts. But should not be seriously thought of as combat by adults!! And WhyTF is that guy doing a pose after each point he thinks he scores?? :rolleyes:

kenpo_dave

Sorry John, youre right, my apologies. And pma-ire, no one Ive come across thinks of point sparring as combat. Its a game, nothing more. In my Kenpo school we use the point sparring for speed and accuracy training and a fitness workout. I posted those clips merely as answer to kerinsp's question "Is this Kratty?".

Roper

In answer to the original question, I think anything is only Kratty if you shout "KRATTY" whenever you score a point. I think that's a fundamental requirement.

Sparring in Kyukoshin is a lot like doing that Happy Gilmore thing with the baseballs coming at you. Bruises, everywhere. I don't think not wearing any gloves adds any value TBH, though I do respect the guys who do it, and it seems to produce results in terms of guys who can look after themselves.

I don't know if it's REAL Kratty or not, I'm not an historian, and the other vids reflect a lot of what I don't like about points sparring, though it's a good, skilled GAME, I'll give it that.

pma-ire wrote:

This is point sparring! As in one point sparring!!
Fine for kids and white belts.

Do you think so Paul? I used to occasionally use points for beginner kids to get them used to sparring, but I've discarded it now as I felt that it created more problems than it solved. I had to teach another type of sparring directly afterwards, so in essence I was teaching two "games" which contradict one another. We've come up with better stuff now.

pma-ire

Roper wrote:

Do you think so Paul? I used to occasionally use points for beginner kids to get them used to sparring, but I've discarded it now as I felt that it created more problems than it solved. I had to teach another type of sparring directly afterwards, so in essence I was teaching two "games" which contradict one another. We've come up with better stuff now.

Really?

I'd like to hear more about it!!

As I'm gonna be progressing the kids with me to sparring after there grading in January and as I said I don't like point sparring. So an alternative would be interesting

Roper

Well, there's a little too many to type out. An example is the 3 man statue game. One guy stands in the middle like, you guessed it, a statue. The other two move around him with gloves on trying to hit each other. They try to keep him between them and their opponent. It gets them into moving angularly, and just moving too. It's a bit of fun for them. I think I explained the limbo game before too. Basically just a rope at shoulder height and they have to be on the same side of the rope to score when they hit. Sounds crap when I type it there but it works well and keeps their head moving.

We came up with them by identifying the key skills we wanted to teach and working backwards inventing games that would improve them. We have the 3 key "Always" they must do and we work from there sparring wise. Always protect yourself (guard and defence games), Always be moving (footwork and mobility games as above) and Always be busy (moving and striking). They might not be great on the grammar front but we've noticed results when they transfer to sparring.

Cake Fiend

Not enough chops.

pma-ire

Roper wrote:

Well, there's a little too many to type out. An example is the 3 man statue game. One guy stands in the middle like, you guessed it, a statue. The other two move around him with gloves on trying to hit each other. They try to keep him between them and their opponent. It gets them into moving angularly, and just moving too. It's a bit of fun for them. I think I explained the limbo game before too. Basically just a rope at shoulder height and they have to be on the same side of the rope to score when they hit. Sounds crap when I type it there but it works well and keeps their head moving.

We came up with them by identifying the key skills we wanted to teach and working backwards inventing games that would improve them. We have the 3 key "Always" they must do and we work from there sparring wise. Always protect yourself (guard and defence games), Always be moving (footwork and mobility games as above) and Always be busy (moving and striking). They might not be great on the grammar front but we've noticed results when they transfer to sparring.

did'int you send me something on that before??

i must still have it somewhere??

kerinsp

feck sake lads, I didn't really think it was kratty, I thought the clip was hilarous!
No need to resurrect the "is this really fighting" thread here!

john kavanagh

those games sound really cool roper, i'll be doing them in my senior class too! i'll have to get you to drop over to our kids class sometime and go through those games if you had time:D

memphis

kerinsp wrote:

http://www.ebaumsworld.com/afroninja.html

Clip of the month that, that's just hilarious!!

Dave Joyce

Although we don't teach kids any longer I think some of them games sound great craic in fact so much so that I think I'll try the one with the guy in the middle when the guys are Thai sparring the next time:D

Kenpo Dave I have to agree with JK 'bout some systems/styles thinking they're fighters even when they do points fighting stuff. In fact many years ago at a tournement one guy (from the semi-contact kickboxing fraternatiey) was commenting how he was a "fighter" and this was his thing etc and the person he talking to asked him how come then he didn't go in for the Chinese full-contact fighting (which was going on in a nearby area) and he seriously replied "Ah Jaysus, no way, they're all fuvkin' mad!"

I also recently heard of a fairly well-known "full-contact" kickboxing coach who advised one of his guys not to kick so hard when he sparred as if he did that in an event the opponent would score more points than him because the other guy would kick more often (although not harder)!!!!!!

kenpo_dave

Dave I agree with JK too.
Roper, there is a difference in being hit bare knuckle and being hit with a gloved fist. Kyokushin sparring, as far as I understand it, was developed to compete with Muay Thai. Mas Oyama did take the leg kicks, and perhaps more that Im not yet aware of, from Muay Thai to add to the sparring. We also hit has hard as we can . There is however also a full Karate system behind the sparring, based on Shotokan and Goju Ryu.

pma-ire

Roper wrote:

Well, there's a little too many to type out. An example is the 3 man statue game. One guy stands in the middle like, you guessed it, a statue. The other two move around him with gloves on trying to hit each other. They try to keep him between them and their opponent. It gets them into moving angularly, and just moving too. It's a bit of fun for them. I think I explained the limbo game before too. Basically just a rope at shoulder height and they have to be on the same side of the rope to score when they hit. Sounds crap when I type it there but it works well and keeps their head moving.

We came up with them by identifying the key skills we wanted to teach and working backwards inventing games that would improve them. We have the 3 key "Always" they must do and we work from there sparring wise. Always protect yourself (guard and defence games), Always be moving (footwork and mobility games as above) and Always be busy (moving and striking). They might not be great on the grammar front but we've noticed results when they transfer to sparring.

Roper, what competitions do you enter the kids in?

As in TKD or other??

Roper

Christ lads so many questions!
Glad you guys like the games, they're a big hit with the kids and I occasionally use them as warm up games for the adults too. You'd be very surprised how tired you can get ducking under a rope! Unfortunately since I came up with them every time you use them you owe me a fiver... and that's per 3 man group not per training session. I'll post my Paypal details below : ) We have a few others too but they're the most fun I think. I'd be happy to pass them on to anyone who wants them info[at]ko-taekwondo.com
JK, give me a shout in the new year and we might do a "coach swap", maybe even get channel 4 involved too...: ) It would be funky to see some of the games you guys have for the ground.

Kenpo Dave,
I've trained around quite a bit, been to a few "full contact" style clubs be they kickboxing, karate, muay thai, mma, and the only one I came home bruised and damaged from was the Kyukoshin one. I'm not saying it was less valid as a method than the others, as I've said the reults speak for themselves. All you have to do is look at K1 and the amount of fighters there with this background. But I was sparring with what I would call casual practitioners there and came home just f*ckin sore without a lot of "value add" to borrow a business phrase. I've sparred with international class kickboxers, boxers, mma guys and never come home with marks. In fact one of the toughest, hardest hitting guys I know was also one of the lightest sparrers I've ever met, he always said sparring was for his feet and brain.

Paul,
Formerly just TKD, but we're looking at our options for the new year. I've been scoping around for tournies that fit our needs. IMO, the less kids are exposed to silken multi-coloured pyjama bottom types screaming "AYE" every time they flick off someones shoulder the better!!! That's a long winded way of saying that for the moment, I don't know. The options for a place like ours are quite limited.

fianna.5u.com

Funny I was thinking about that coach-swap idea. It sounds like a plan.


Peace

pma-ire

Roper wrote:

Paul,
Formerly just TKD, but we're looking at our options for the new year. I've been scoping around for tournies that fit our needs. IMO, the less kids are exposed to silken multi-coloured pyjama bottom types screaming "AYE" every time they flick off someones shoulder the better!!! That's a long winded way of saying that for the moment, I don't know. The options for a place like ours are quite limited.

I know what you mean man!

I'm gonna just have to send my lot to the usual TKD comps that are around? But maybe you could run your own experimental comp with another club that might be open to the idea??