Victory for Irish Ferries

mentalson

Yesterday Irish Ferries threatened to reduce redundancy payments unless the strike was called off by last night.
This morning the Union gave in and called it off.
Irish Ferries two central demands , that irish workers be replaced by Eastern european contract workers and that they be allowed to reflag their ships to circumvent irish labour laws have been granted by the Union. the Union says that it has an agreement that the contract workers will be paid minimun wage
despite the reflagging.

Is this a craven capitulation by the Unions whichwho have put getting a good redundancy deal for their members above the interests of the latvian contract workers that will be replacing them. Was the national day of protest a sick joke?

oscarBravo

mentalson wrote:

Is this a craven capitulation by the Unions whichwho have put getting a good redundancy deal for their members above the interests of the latvian contract workers that will be replacing them.

Yeah - you'd have to wonder what sort of half-assed union acts in the interests of its members.

ressem

Given that Irish Ferries legally could have closed, paid minimum statutory payments instead of 8 weeks per year of service, and reopened elsewhere, contracting the ships, saving I think 20 million, it seems like as good a compromise as the union could get.

Getting minimum wage and conditions without the board deductions for the contracted workers was I thought a large part of the reason for the march.


I think it was mentioned that it's up for re-negotiation in 3 years.

Akrasia

Is anyone ever going to travel on Irish Ferries again after this?

mike65

Yes. Forget the marches, the travelling public will use whoever is providing a service they can make use of.

Mike.

MrPudding

If they have the routes that I need and they are the cheapest, then yes.

MrP

ronbyrne2005

i predicted this on the other irish ferries thread. the unions were using the irish ferries dispute as a symbolic dispute coming up to the partnership talks and to try and energise the anaemic union movement in the private sector but most people in the private sector know than unions arent that relevant for them,we already have some of the most protective labour law in world.

mentalson

the march and all the tough talk was supposed to be about protecting the pay and conditions of workers whatever their nationality. Irish Ferries have broken agreements before. Why have they agreed to allow irish ferries to reglag their ships.

The replacement of workers (whatever thier nationality) with eastern european contract workers is an issue that could affect a lot of other workers in this country, even if the replacements are paid the legal minimun wage.
This will open the way for the race to the bottom

murphaph

What happened here is that SIPTU met their match in the form of IF management. The company were not worried about general elections which is the type of counterpart SIPTU are used negotiating with in the form of the government and the 'partnership' talks.

SIPTU really are an arrogant bunch, they tried in all this to crush the SUI. If I ever did choose to join a union, SIPTU would not be it, they only go for what they perceive to be easy wins, usually involving holding the general public to ransom.

mike65

Even The Seamans' Union ended up having a go at SIPTU for thier apparently spoiling for a fight.

Mike.

Hobbes

Did I miss something? According to the news this morning on the radio I.Ferries actually are now going to pay at least the Irish minimum wage to all employees and redundancies will be respected to any who want to take them (which are not forced).

http://breakingnews.iol.ie/news/story.asp?j=136253020&p=y36z536xx&n=136253629

mentalson

what you missed is that SIPTU have more or less given their blessing to any employer that wants to replace its workforce with contract workers on minimun wage. and despite any "written agreement" they have allowed Irish Ferries to reflag which means that they can pay below min wage in future.

Hobbes

As I mentioned what did I miss?

As far as I can see they are not replacing thier staff unless that person wants to be replaced and they are paying at least minimum wage (which to a lot of the people on the boat is a huge pay increase).

You did read the news story right?

I am aware of the reflagging part but Irish ferries was never "Irish" to begin with. They are also reflagging with another EU country which will mean the employees should be protected by EU law.

mentalson

a quote by a man called hobbes comes to mind.

life is the state of "warre of every man against every man":
the life of man, solitary, poor, nasty, brutish, and short.

they are being paid above minumun pay at the moment. it's the law of the land. reflagging will also allow nasty inconviencies like statutory holiday pay, public holidays prsi etc.

And in common with all other state and private jobs that have been outsourced. there will be no such thing as permenant contracts. sick pay pensions or any of that rubbish

markpb

mentalson wrote:

the march and all the tough talk was supposed to be about protecting the pay and conditions of workers whatever their nationality. Irish Ferries have broken agreements before. Why have they agreed to allow irish ferries to reglag their ships.

Because the alternative was waiting till the union's inflexible practices forced the company (or particular routes) out of business and left all the workers with a much reduced redundancy package?

Sometimes unions needs to show just a little bit of realism. IF's accounts were audited by a company approved by SIPTU and they agrred with IF - continuing without change would put the company out of business. A victory for unions today would have cost the same workers dearly two years down the line.

mentalson wrote:

The replacement of workers (whatever thier nationality) with eastern european contract workers is an issue that could affect a lot of other workers in this country, even if the replacements are paid the legal minimun wage. This will open the way for the race to the bottom

People losing their jobs because they cost too much to employ is nothing new. It happens all the time and all around the world and there's pretty much nothing unions can do about it. Employees, on the other hand, can limit it by being valuable, flexible and employable.

Irish Ferries unions are still treating the company like a semi-state. They think they can cause hassle, pressure the management and the government and shut down the business, safe in the knowledge that it isn't going anywhere.
This works with An Post and Dublin Bus because the state needs those services to continue but it doesn't apply to private enterprises.

Irish Ferries management (like murphaph said) don't care about elections and always have the opt-out of shutting down the business, paying themselves off and sacking the workers with nothing more than compulsory redundancy packages.

There wasn't a lot the government could do and, truth be told, there's not a lot on incentive for the government to back the unions when the same union gives them more than enough hassle on other issues.

The unions went on a power trip, had everything to lose, nearly cost the workers they claim to represent their jobs and/or redundancy packages and were forced to back down on most of the issues.

Hobbes wrote:

As far as I can see they are not replacing thier staff unless that person wants to be replaced and they are paying at least minimum wage (which to a lot of the people on the boat is a huge pay increase).

At least some of the staff will be replaced by workers earning far less. Because they're being allowed to reflag, the contributions paid by the company will drop and, as mentalson says, there are some benefits by employing under different labour laws. However the crux of the battle for SIPTU is that they failed to force IF to make all the new employees become members of SIPTU rather than the SUI.

Hobbes

I checked up on it.

1. 90% of the starff wanted redundancy and have taken it.
2. Of the remaining 10% they will get at least minimum wages.
3. All employees (including any new employwill be paid minimum Irish wage even if sailing under another flag. So the Latvians are going to get paid nearly double what they were going to get.

Also the reflagging will not effect these rulings.

At least thats what I have read. Do you have anything to say otherwise I can read up on mentalson?


I suspect the government got them to play ball due to the recent marine bill which planned to net just under 2 million for Irish Ferries. I wonder if they are still getting that?

rossious

The workers now get the min wage.... Wow... after three weeks we go nowhere.

The initial offer was €4 or whatever AND all living expenses.

Now its €7.35 with reduced living expenses.

Six of one / half dozen the other I feel, and SIPTU have screwed up so many of our importers/exporters and hauliers Christmas. What a shower of tossers. Well done IF management. I'll sail IF now whatever the price on stena etc. SIPTU need to be taken down a peg or three.:mad:

Hobbes

Do you have a link regarding the reduced living expenses? I have seen no mention of it. I have seen mentions of more respectable working hours for employees also given. Initial offer I believe was around 3 euros btw.

mentalson

I think an important issue is why were Irish ferries so insistent on being allowed to reflag. If they were going to pay irish pay and conditions why is it important that they are able to circumvent irish labour laws?

Hobbes

I think the important issue is to point me out to where you see they are going to do this rather then speculation because everything I have read up to this point says your incorrect. So if you have something to show otherwise I would be interested in reading it.

ronbyrne2005

the agreement runs out in 3 years or something,then they can consider lowering wage but in 3 years time i dont think there will be many europeans prepared to work for less than 7.60 as wages are rising fast in these eastern european states

Hobbes

Cheers for that. What I suspect may happen is that pay increases just won't be done so they can remain below the minimum wage as Irish minimum wage may increase by then.

BrianD

Where is the vessel to be re-flagged? If it is Northern Cyprus then EU law is not applicable. The agreement is token and won't be enforceable.

Hobbes

It is not northern Cyprus. Also the laws in that area are not that much different to Irish law. They have a minimum wage (for certain workers only though) and over 70% of the workforce is in a Union. Add to that they have bilateral agreements (although none with Ireland) but was mentioned they would be more then happy to set up one up.

mentalson

but the question is ?

Why were Irish Ferries so insistent on being allowed to reflag?

I have no information on their intentions or labour regulations in cyprus, but if they do plan on paying irish minimun wage in the future it shouldn't have been an issue?

MrPudding

BrianD wrote:

Where is the vessel to be re-flagged? If it is Northern Cyprus then EU law is not applicable. The agreement is token and won't be enforceable.

It has also been said that regardless of the flag status of the ships the agreement is legally binding.

Is there any info on how this will / can be enforced?

MrP

mentalson

Did Irish Ferries not make a three year agreement regarding conditions about a year ago which they are now breaking with impunity.
Anyway I think that the new agreement only covers minimun wage.
reflagging will allow them to disregard irish labour regulations regarding working hours, overtime pay , unfair dismissal, holiday pay, bank holiday pay, prsi etc etc