Can people be born homosexual?

UU

Hi all,

In the past I came out open to my family and friends that I'm gay and they were cool about it but for years I sort of always had a feeling that I was as I never had sexual desires for females but for males. By this, I'm convinced that I was born gay and never chose it. I was wondering does anyone else believe that they too were born gay by genes and hormones?

Stark

UU wrote:

By this, I'm convinced that I was born gay and never chose it. I was wondering does anyone else believe that they too were born gay by genes and hormones?

Yes totally. I'm happy with who I am now, but at age 11/12 I tried everything to not be gay.

shay_562

Yeah, pretty much. I literally can't remember a time when I wasn't gay, so I don't think I chose it. But there's no conclusive proof either way (nature/nurture) so nobody can say definitively.

azezil

Well I for one am only doing this gay gig cause it makes me look cool.

wheresthebeef

i firmly believe that i had no choice in the matter. and i think its most likely that there is a biological reason behind it. some say its to do with hormone activity whilst in the womb.

Azezil reporting feelings of coolness is purely a side effect.

Sapien

wheresthebeef wrote:

Azezil reporting feelings of coolness is purely a side effect.

The importance of the coolness cannot be overestimated. I predict the Age of the Queer is at hand. You can quote me on that.

dory

I fancied a girl when I was about 4, so I don't think nurture had a chance to take effect by then!

shay_562

I predict the Age of the Queer is at hand. You can quote me on that.

It's true, you know. Gay is the new black. Just look at TV - every show from the OC down to Eastenders is popping in lesbians to get more ratings. Which works out just great for right now, but I'm not looking forward to the inevitable backlash.

carbonkid

I think i went though a phase of fancing girls for like a few weeks when i was about 13 :rolleyes:

Saruman

There probably are plenty of people born who will certainly or probably be gay. Maybe low testosterone levels or something like that... Hell there is a "FAT Gene" so probably a Gay gene too

Sapien

Saruman wrote:

There probably are plenty of people born who will certainly or probably be gay. Maybe low testosterone levels or something like that... Hell there is a "FAT Gene" so probably a Gay gene too

In the hope that it might make some difference...

The current theories regarding in utero hormonal processes affecting emergent sexuality is that an excess of testosterone results in homosexuality in males. If that seems to be at odds with your intuitional understanding of the relationship between sexuality, manliness, and biological development then, for all our sakes, don't bother.

azezil

Sapien wrote:

In the hope that it might make some difference...

The current theories regarding in utero hormonal processes affecting emergent sexuality is that an excess of testosterone results in homosexuality in males. If that seems to be at odds with your intuitional understanding of the relationship between sexuality, manliness, and biological development then, for all our sakes, don't bother.

lol
yeah that would make more sense, compare the amount of sex gay guys have to straight guys

Stark

Sapien wrote:

If that seems to be at odds with your intuitional understanding of the relationship between sexuality, manliness, and biological development then, for all our sakes, don't bother.

There's no need to be like that, low testosterone, high testosterone, he never said "high testosterone is better as testosterone is the stuff of manliness" as you're implying.

On the theories themselves, yeah the in-utero thing makes sense. I mean you can have identical twins, one straight, one gay, so that makes it unlikely that it's solely genetics. You do have the case of there being a greater chance of your sibling being gay if you're gay, and some minor physical differences between gay and straight men (index finger length being one). There's also the differing hippocampus size between a heterosexual brain and a homosexual brain. They point to some biological explanation, even if it's not 100% genetic.

samb

Have you seen 'the truth about gay animals'' documentary, very interesting. It suggested that it is strongly hereditary. Gay sheep, penguins, swans and many more. there is also evidance that suggests that if you had older brothers you are more likely to be Gay, it related to hormones changing in womb in mother.
The idea that you can choose to be gay is nonsense, unless your bi, which most if not all gays may be(could make a thread). As a straight guy, I certainly couldn't chose to be gay. Only some gay people think they can chose.
Some of you guys and gals living in Dublin seem to think that your fight for rights, respect etc is pretty much won. I warn you to be vigilent and drive it home as much as possible. There are bigots everywhere, they just are not vocal.

Hmm_Messiah

samb wrote:

The idea that you can choose to be gay is nonsense, unless your bi, which most if not all gays may be(could make a thread). As a straight guy, I certainly couldn't chose to be gay. Only some gay people think they can chose.

I am surprised this question still appears so often in 2005. The answer is not known as yet. And there is another question" why do people need to know?". Will it make a difference if being gay is something your born into, grow into or choose?. Is it for some people a hope for affirmation that they are "normal"?

Maybe I am reading Samb wrong, but I'd disagree with the suggestion bi people have choices others don't. Gay, bi or straight are orientations outside of your control - every one, with whatever orientation, has choices on how they act or behave, the lifestyle or "life" they choose to follow.

I don't think any gay person " can choose", but they can choose to be non responsive to their orientation, even to the point of denial. I'd guess its even possible that in some circumstances a gay individuals choice to live a heterosexual life might be a wise one (if they lack the tools/environment to safely/comfortable be otherwise)

Cantab.

The idea of being born gay is very interesting. I wonder could we extend this idea and ask, can one be born a paedophile, can one be born a necrophiliac, can one be born with a desire to have sex with other species?

All of the above phenomena occur in nature, paedophilia (imagine a paedophilic dog!) and homosexuality being the most common.

Maybe I'm way off the mark here, (I've been thinking about this a lot lately, probably cos I've too much time on my hands) but I'd like to know other guys' opinions on this matter.

Zillah

In reagrds to Cantab's points, I'd say no.

Until some conclusive studies have solved the issue, my working theory is that something in the gay male brain is inherently female, and visa versa. Hence why gay men are attracted to other men; that part of their brain is functioning as it usually would for a female.

If thats the case then it doesn't really carry over to paedophilia and necrophilia etc.

Zillah

Hmm_Messiah wrote:

Maybe I am reading Samb wrong, but I'd disagree with the suggestion bi people have choices others don't. Gay, bi or straight are orientations outside of your control - every one, with whatever orientation, has choices on how they act or behave, the lifestyle or "life" they choose to follow.

Well, a bisexual person could choose to ignore their attraction for one particular sex and still have a good chance of having a happy and fulfilling sexual relationship. That is a choice that neither homosexuals nor heterosexuals have.

Cantab.

Zillah wrote:

In reagrds to Cantab's points, I'd say no.

Until some conclusive studies have solved the issue, my working theory is that something in the gay male brain is inherently female, and visa versa. Hence why gay men are attracted to other men; that part of their brain is functioning as it usually would for a female.

If thats the case then it doesn't really carry over to paedophilia and necrophilia etc.

So you're open to the possiblity that the homosexual mind is akin to that of the paedophile's, the necrophile's and the man who wants to have sex with animals? You're not ruling it out completely until there's conclusive proof on the matter? Sexual orientation is so subjective that I doubt there'll ever be conclusive proof.

You say the gay brain is some kind of genetic mix-up whereby part of it becomes female for some unknown reason. This is not a good enough explanation to ward off criticism from right-wing extremists in society who will just turn around and ask what the difference is between this mix-up and any other genetic mix-up that can be 'treated'. Homosexual orientation must surely be more than just a dysfunction of the mind?

UU

Cantab. wrote:

So you're open to the possibility that the homosexual mind is akin to that of the paedophile's, the necrophile's and the man who wants to have sex with animals? You're not ruling it out completely until there's conclusive proof on the matter? Sexual orientation is so subjective that I doubt there'll ever be conclusive proof.

You say the gay brain is some kind of genetic mix-up whereby part of it becomes female for some unknown reason. This is not a good enough explanation to ward off criticism from right-wing extremists in society who will just turn around and ask what the difference is between this mix-up and any other genetic mix-up that can be 'treated'. Homosexual orientation must surely be more than just a dysfunction of the mind?

Well, paedophiles and necrophiles are just people who have some mental and social problems but they still have a choice to be the way they are (unless they are disabled or something). Just like murders have the choice to murder or not. Genetic mix-ups cannot be treated. People who are born with Down's Syndrome haven't been treated yet and that is genetic. You are born with genes and you can't control and change them but you can with hormones. Anyway, most ring-wing extremists would probably not listen in the first place as most of them are too busy chanting "The Bible tells the truth!" and "All fags go to hell!"

samb

Hmm_Messiah wrote:

Maybe I am reading Samb wrong, but I'd disagree with the suggestion bi people have choices others don't. Gay, bi or straight are orientations outside of your control - every one, with whatever orientation, has choices on how they act or behave, the lifestyle or "life" they choose to follow.

You are reading me right and I am wrong slightly. I agree that Gay, Bi or straight are all orientations outside of our control and we can all chose our lifestyle. If I never have sex with a woman but did with a man (although I couldn't choose to give it?) I would still be straight. It is however a lot easier for Bi people to chose the either lifestyle because they are comfortable with either sex.
I could chose to act as a homesexual but it would be very very very difficult.

Homosexuals are very different to straight men to a straight men, I supose this is why so many have a problem (they fear what they don't understand). But I don't understand woman in the exact same way (how can they find men, penises and all atractive, to me it's disgusting). We have to accept what we don't understand, espically since it is not very imporatant.

I don't understand people liking Marmight:)

Zillah

Cantab. wrote:

So you're open to the possiblity that the homosexual mind is akin to that of the paedophile's, the necrophile's and the man who wants to have sex with animals? You're not ruling it out completely until there's conclusive proof on the matter? Sexual orientation is so subjective that I doubt there'll ever be conclusive proof.

You say the gay brain is some kind of genetic mix-up whereby part of it becomes female for some unknown reason. This is not a good enough explanation to ward off criticism from right-wing extremists in society who will just turn around and ask what the difference is between this mix-up and any other genetic mix-up that can be 'treated'.

1 - Im won't, and I hope scientists won't, decide on the matter based on what the current political trend is. You seem to be assuming that my goal is the furthering of gay rights, as opposed to biology. I have no intention of trying to "ward off criticism". I'll go for the truth, you people can debate about it's relevance all you like afterwards.

2 - What you said only makes any sense if you warp my entire theory into the phrase "genetic mix up", which is a grossly innacurate and insufficient title.

Its far closer to a "hormonal mix up" than anything. And it happens at a stage when the brain is developing. So unless these right wing extremists of yours know how to make a retro virus to regrow homosexual brain's form scratch then there's little that can be done.

I have no doubt that there are plenty of reasons for homosexuality. I'd say the vast majority have some common biological basis, but then there'll be a few who do it for social reasons and yes, there will be some who are just crazy.

Homosexual orientation must surely be more than just a dysfunction of the mind?

What? If not the mind/brain then, what? The spleen? The Liver? The Soul?

Really what are you getting at?

Hmm_Messiah

Homosexual orientation must surely be more than just a dysfunction of the mind?

Are we swimming backwards towards reclassifying being gay as a mental disorder??

Its dysfunctional if homosexual behaviour etc is seen as outside whats normal; that is just a few regressions away from affirming its intrinsically disordered, and that heterosexuality is not only the norm, but the correct way to be .

Personally I'd not accept that

RobEire

Hmm_Messiah wrote:

Are we swimming backwards towards reclassifying being gay as a mental disorder??

Its dysfunctional if homosexual behaviour etc is seen as outside whats normal; that is just a few regressions away from affirming its intrinsically disordered, and that heterosexuality is not only the norm, but the correct way to be .

Personally I'd not accept that

It has taken me just on 25 years to accept the fact that homosexuality is a natural variation within the remarkably broad field of human sexuality, despite what I was taught to believe by my religion, which teaches that it is a conscious choice taken by the individual.

Given that statistically 1 in 10 people are homosexual, and that this is (in as much as it is possible to test) fairly consistent across all human cultures and races, it would indicate that there is far more at work here than conscious choice/hormonal imbalances/etc.

So the short answer is yes, I do believe that people can be born homosexual. I do however still believe that people can also become homosexual due to life experiences and/or conscious choice, and probably for a million other reasons that I do not know about.

Annasopra

Well, paedophiles and necrophiles are just people who have some mental and social problems but they still have a choice to be the way they are

I disagree - in my opinion paedophiles do not have a choice to be the way they are - they have a choice to act on what they are

krd

[QUOTE=Well, paedophiles and necrophiles are just people who have some mental and social problems but they still have a choice to be the way they are
[/QUOTE]


Don't knock necrophilia -- every body says my baby's cold but she's a real hot chick to me.

LegacyUser

Stark wrote:

You do have the case of there being a greater chance of your sibling being gay if you're gay, and some minor physical differences between gay and straight men (index finger length being one).

Man I've never heard tha one! That's feckin mad, but now it has me worried. Are gay guys index finger's meant to be longer or shorter than straight guys?? I've got notoriously short stumpy fingers(yeah yeah we all know what that means!!) but I've never had any homosexual feelings! Let me know which is the case so I can start being gay ASAP!

Call_Me,Stan

Guys, let me know what you think about this link.

Personally, I feel it makes a lot of sense.

http://www.pureintimacy.org/gr/homosexuality/a0000055.cfm

shay_562

Personally, I think it's a pile of ****e. For one thing, I think it's ridiculous to apply one background to every single gay person - I don't know about anyone else, but I loved sports and all that **** when I was a kid, and I've always gotten on well with my dad, probably better than with my mom. In fact, the author's attempts to establish one set background disproves his entire theory; unless someone can find one unifying factor in the background of every gay person in the world, it's ridiculous to suggest that homosexuality is 'caused by something.

I'm also insulted by his implications that gay people are more promiscuous than straight people and are incapable of relating to anyone but their own gender ("He also lives with the guilt and shame that he inevitably feels over his compulsive, promiscuous behavior; and too over the knowledge that he cannot relate effectively to the opposite sex") which seem to be based on nothing more than the author's own prejudices; and his references to homosexuality as a "curse" that can be "healed" are shockingly offensive.

It would be different if he were presenting this as a single case-study, as I'm sure this little scenario applies to someone out there. But to hold it up as a "common developmental pathway" to homosexuality is at best misguided and at worst obscene.

Sapien

Call_Me,Stan wrote:

Guys, let me know what you think about this link.

Personally, I feel it makes a lot of sense.

http://www.pureintimacy.org/gr/homosexuality/a0000055.cfm

It is psychology - of the worst possible variety. It is scientifically unfalsifiable, epistemologically irredeemable and of no worth to anyone in any respect. Furthermore it is dangerous, in the way that psychological quackery has often been dangerous since the inception of the specious discipline - in its potential to lead to harmful prescriptive measures. It is one things that psychologists lounge in staff rooms and concoct catastrophically unscientific reasons to claim that sexuality is best understood through their own paradigms - it is quite another that parents might be incited to change the way in which they raise their children based on these dismally undisciplined flights of conjecture.

Stark

Sapien wrote:

It is psychology - of the worst possible variety. It is scientifically unfalsifiable, epistemologically irredeemable and of no worth to anyone in any respect. Furthermore it is dangerous, in the way that psychological quackery has often been dangerous since the inception of the specious discipline - in its potential to lead to harmful prescriptive measures. It is one things that psychologists lounge in staff rooms and concoct catastrophically unscientific reasons to claim that sexuality is best understood through their own paradigms - it is quite another that parents might be incited to change the way in which they raise their children based on these dismally undisciplined flights of conjecture.

"That article is a load of ****e just like psychology in general" - Stark's cliff notes style summary for those of us who don't read the dictionary before bedtime.

Annasopra

Call_Me,Stan wrote:

Guys, let me know what you think about this link.

Personally, I feel it makes a lot of sense.

http://www.pureintimacy.org/gr/homosexuality/a0000055.cfm

ah yes very unbiased source in NARTH :mad:

AARRRGH

I haven't read all the posts, but the gay bloke who looks feminine and talks like a girl surely was born gay.

And the lesbian girl who looks like a bloke and talks like a bloke surely was born lesbian.

I don't see why not???

Call_Me,Stan

I don't see why???

Annasopra

how does that link make a lot of sense to you?

Cronus333

What on earth?!! Who in thei right mind wuld actually believe that nonesense?

Actually, the people who wrote that were proberbly as right minded as you can get.....:D

Hancin' Damster

Can people be born homosexual?

Yes. Quite simply, yes.

ianmc38

Personally, I don't believe in the existence of a "gay gene". I think the reason behind many peoples homosexuality can be found by analysing there childhood and the relationship they had with parents etc.

Hmm_Messiah

ianmc38 wrote:

Personally, I don't believe in the existence of a "gay gene". I think the reason behind many peoples homosexuality can be found by analysing there childhood and the relationship they had with parents etc.

Such an understanding is flawed unless you can explain why homosexuality is not more commonly shared among siblings who have shared the same childhood and similar parental relationships.

Its like explaining some people's criminal behaviour by refering to their childhood and environment. Many others sharing the same experience do not resort to criminality.

I image it does "contribute" in some instances at least.

Personally I find the "why" of gayness unimportant

Zillah

ianmc38 wrote:

Personally, I don't believe in the existence of a "gay gene". I think the reason behind many peoples homosexuality can be found by analysing there childhood and the relationship they had with parents etc.

And you're basing that on what?

And you're ignoring the biological evidence to the contrary why?

EDIT: For the record, it is very unlikely that there is a "gay gene", but that does not mean there isn't a biological reason. Considering that we're dicussing something as complex as the functioning of the human brain then it is likely that the genetic basis is extremely complex, no mere single gene, but a combined effect of many.

WexCan

Hmm_Messiah wrote:

Personally I find the "why" of gayness unimportant

Agree 100%... I think if you stop asking why it helps you on the way to accepting yourself.

lifesucks

Today someone was talking to me about gay people. They didnt realise that I was gay and they said that they thought 'gayness' was some sort of mental condition.

damien

lifesucks wrote:

and they said that they thought 'gayness' was some sort of mental condition.

But so is love.

WexCan

damien.m wrote:

But so is love.

Indeed, but being gay is part of who you are. I suppose loving someone is the same.

As I said above, why do we really need to know what causes people to be gay? Does it really matter?