Possible Pistol & Reloading Courses in Germany.

Clare gunner

OK Folks,
Just back from the Northern parts of Germany,and have got somthing that migh be of intrest and benefit to us aspiring to reload and shoot pistols here in the future.
I was up at Weeze,which pretty much is an ex RAF airforce base north of Dusseldorf and appx 50 miles from the town of Arnhem[of a bridge too far fame].Great place,pretty down on it's luck due to the RAF going and it needs the money in the local ecnomy.There are plenty of English stay behinds,english is second langauge up there a good pub,cheap nosh,it is serviced from Shannon to Dusseldorf/Weeze by Ryanair and I belive Dublin/Stanstead, cheap accomadation,and most importantly an intrested gun club and police range.
I talked to the English pub owner,who is also a town counciler and ex RAF police with range officer qualifications.[now lapsed,but he knows what I am on about]He was most intrested in the scenario over here and the possible way the CJB could play out regarding the reloading and the competance to use issue.
Sooo I have suggested to him to see what is the possibility of getting a two day intensive course run on the following;reloading, basic sidearm training,and possibly large bore rifle training.As it looks like in the above three the CJB will have somthing about being a gun club member and "proving competance".Now at this point I am only speculating and apologies to any clubs and any programmes they might be putting in place.
BUT I am just wondering HOW LONG do people expect these courses to be???How long does it really take to teach a person the fundamentals of safe pistol/rifle handling?Also as some of us live appx 200 miles round trips from the nearest clubs,and with the related hassles of getting new clubs set up and built,how long will it be before the established clubs will have huge membership backlogs,not to mind long waiting lists for the training courses??

All in all we could end up with a situation like our driving liscense test here.Lots of people wanting to get a full liscense,too few testers,well, Need I elaborate on this??
The good point of the German situation will be.It will be GERMAN POLICE FIREARMS OFFICERS who will be possibly training us and also signing us off as well as competant in safe firearms/sidearms handling techniques.It would be proably up to the standards of the same teaching the German police give their "endangerd citizens" before they sign them off for their carry permit.
As well as this we are now ,wether we like it or not in the EU so our lot[gardai and politicos] will start to have to accept EU type certification .
My plan would be,you would be able to produce EU accepted certificates of competance in the firearms field,that is most importantly checkable and of a high standard and SHOULD be acceptable to our Gardai.
The German side want from us a clearance cert of non criminality from our Gardai.
Please bear in mind this whole concept is VERY much on the drawing board stage,and nothing is in stone.or gospel,I will have to meet the German police cheif and the gun club comittie to see how they will take it on a more formal setting and discussion.But what I want to hear from you folks is;
1]Would people be intrested in this?
2]How many of you would be willing to go to do these types of course?
3]Would the political side of Irish shooting organisations be willing to go along with this concept.
4]Would the Gardai be willing to accept without making too much a fuss an EU certificate?
5] IF the CJB goes totally pear shaped on us?Would there be an intrest in setting up a "wild Geese" style rifle&pistol club in Germany?

I would be intrested in your opinions,comments etc.
Let the debate begin:D

Clare gunner

35 views.No replies!:(
Cmon folks,is nobody intrested,are we all hoping that the CJB will ALL go our way?Or will I do all the donkey work for everyone so if and when it works everyone can bandwagon??

Sparks

Well, I'd say that I'd be interested in doing an RO course, but I'd be more interested in doing an ISSF course than a fullbore course purely because I don't shoot fullbore. And it's become rather obvious today that we need to rethink even our attitudes towards air pistols - we ran a mixed detail today and it was shocking how often the pistol handling worried us. Folks, we need to face up to this pretty damn fast before something bad happens - we don't have enough experience in pistols and we need training courses. And I'm including myself in that just as fast as anyone else. See the new entry in the I learnt about shooting from that thread.

Thing is, CG: How long should it take to teach? Not long. Ten, twenty minutes or so. How long will it take to learn though, that's the rub...

Clare gunner

Thing is, CG: How long should it take to teach? Not long. Ten, twenty minutes or so. How long will it take to learn though, that's the rub...

Sparks,
another way of looking at this is;If you want to learn you wouldnt have spent your hard earned cash on doing the course.If you are MADE to learn somthing you have no intrest in,different story. BTW they do have an air rifle/pistol range up there as well.

Slug chucker

Hi,
I don't think people aren't interested it's just that there isn't enough information out there re the requirements sought by the DOJ.
I asked the DOJ about reloading and what constitutes experience and as usual no reply back from them.
If they won't talk to us we can't accommodate their requirements.
Maybe FLAG could suggest to the DOJ acceptable home grown training courses that can be done locally by club visits.
Out of the country courses will only suit the people who can afford to go, so if this becomes the benchmark with the DOJ due to suggestion those who cannot afford to go won't be able to reload.
Not everybody has the money or time to travel for their sport.
Cheers,
Slug

Sparks

Slug chucker wrote:

Out of the country courses will only suit the people who can afford to go, so if this becomes the benchmark with the DOJ due to suggestion those who cannot afford to go won't be able to reload.
Not everybody has the money or time to travel for their sport.

[DevilsAdvocate]True, but then the counter-argument is that you can't get a reloading licence for reasons of economy, so the only people going for them must be those who can afford it.[/DevilsAdvocate]
Besides, waiting until we can run courses at home before doing anything is a recipe for doing nothing.

civdef

It'd make sense for some people to go on courses internationally anyway, these can then build up their knowledge to a level where they can conduct courses on safe reloading locally in future.

I'd see no reason why everyone would neeed to go abroad to learn this stuff when the possibility exists to set up courses locally.

Sparks

Definitely not everyone Civ, but everyone definitely should be trained to do this; and for the first people to start doing this, the only place they can be trained is abroad, unless we ship the instructors here for the weekend. Which sounds like an option, but has the attendant problems of getting the instructor a licence for the practical part of the course!

les45

In the IPSA situation, RO,s will have taken 40 hrs of instruction, phase one is their initial Pistol Competition Licence course, and phase two is their 2 day IROA Level 1 Range Officers course, the latter requires a 75% pass rate with 5 written papers and a 1 hr range exam with the "Competitor" from hell. The same system applies in all of the IPSC Regions. Both courses require the student to have a full understanding of both the rules and their application in a SAFE ENVIORMENT, in our situation we are fortunate to have a individual that is professionally qualified to offer and assess the students. That will be the crux of any course / qualification , the expertise and qualifications of the course tutors . My own understanding is that a level of competency similar to our PP1 will be the standard required, again FLAG may have more up to date information on this.

Sparks

That does sound like a good level of competency to be maintaining les. What's the long-term checkup story for the IPSA?

Clare gunner

civdef wrote:

It'd make sense for some people to go on courses internationally anyway, these can then build up their knowledge to a level where they can conduct courses on safe reloading locally in future.

I'd see no reason why everyone would neeed to go abroad to learn this stuff when the possibility exists to set up courses locally.

My idea exactly.BUT with the one small problem which I see arriving with the deer hunter course at the moment.It's only run on a limited base somwhere that might be convient for some and usually inconvient for a lot of others.My idea would be ,you can do either Germany or Ireland and be qualified.The big problem will be in getting an instructor over,is the equipment he will need to carry.Not to mind the powders,which will not be allowed on an airline anyway.

Also the gun competancy course would be simply a way of saying to Gardai and clubs.Yes I am qualified in the basic saftey aspects of handling and using firearms to a Eu police competancy standard that they would feel happy in issuing me with a firearm.As to what other saftey standards a shooting disipline may impose is up to their governing body. This course should be seen as giving the prospective pistol/big calibre shooter a "leg up" on the beuraccy and training in Ireland.Nothing more,nothing less.
Because lets face it folks,HOW LONG will it take in reality for us in Ireland to get a shooting range/gun club established with properly certified and Garda approved[when they are not being obstructive] courses in near enough every major town outside of Dublin?Remembering also that this is a section of a sport that has been the red headed child,more or less,for 35 years in Ireland?
If we can use EU law and qualifications to our advantage,why not?

Riggser

Can someone post the courses that will be available in the near future for every and any discipline? From .22 to .458 Magnum. From pistol to torpeado.

les45

To comment on Clare Gunners point re EU standards, I would agree ,if there was a EU / CE spec out there,my understanding is that some discussions have already taken place which lead me to believe that a course / qualification similar to the UKPSA/IPSA Level One may be the proposed standard, and as I said Declan can advise if this is the direction An Garda Siochana intend to take. Re the IPSA , we have a paid up membership of 72 ,with a BASIC Pistol Course / Competition Licence taking place at the end of January and courses to follow each month , we are planing our first Level 2 competition in April. Our Coaching schedule comprises of a 3 Day Coaching Course by Saul Kirsch in the Summer in Ireland, a 5 Day Advanced course in Arizona during the first week of May ,and a 2 Day Advanced Course in October in Ireland. Our next Range Officers Course is scheduled for June. Our Winter Newsletter will be out this week!

Clare gunner

QUOTE=les45]To comment on Clare Gunners point re EU standards, I would agree ,if there was a EU / CE spec out there,my understanding is that some discussions have already taken place which lead me to believe that a course / qualification similar to the UKPSA/IPSA Level One may be the proposed standard, and as I said Declan can advise if this is the direction An Garda Siochana intend to take.[/QUOTE] Re the IPSA , we have a paid up membership of 72 ,with a BASIC Pistol Course / Competition Licence taking place at the end of January and courses to follow each month , we are planing our first Level 2 competition in April. Our Coaching schedule comprises of a 3 Day Coaching Course by Saul Kirsch in the Summer in Ireland, a 5 Day Advanced course in Arizona during the first week of May ,and a 2 Day Advanced Course in October in Ireland. Our next Range Officers Course is scheduled for June. Our Winter Newsletter will be out this week![/QUOTE]

Ya,and here is another of my points;for those of us who have very tardy superintendants.you cant recive instruction here in practical pistol unles you are in possesion of an Irish FAC,which you wont get unless your Super gets his digit out of his rear and issues your FAC.:mad: A nice Catch 22 situation.Yet OTOH doing the cert over would/should give you enough credence and knowledge to allow you to be instructed in whatever aspect of pistol shooting in Ireland,while you are waiting for your liscense on somone elses pistol.

Sparks

Are you not permitted to do the IPSA course using a club pistol held on an authorisation CG?

jaycee

Are you not permitted to do the IPSA course using a club pistol held on an authorisation CG?

Or a blank firing one..!

les45

Item 1 . Blank Firing pistol ! for your comp licence you must shoot a final qualifier stage with a 60% score on paper , unless by some strange act of the Gods a nice group of holes appear in the A Zone, then you can not qualify. This also leads us to a recent query in relation to Airsoft , many UKPSA shooters shoot Airsoft and again the approach adopted by many IPSC regions is to allow the UK boys and girls a pre assesment by the host association .The IPSA have adopted a similar policy with UKPSA shooters taking the qualifier stage as proff of competency.

Item 2 Out of Region Basic Pistol Course, if the course is approved by the host Region ,in Clare Gunners scenerio Germany then the IPSA would have no difficulty in accepting the course .

Item 3 . Club Guns / IPSA Saftey Course, our current policy, which will be reviewed next year is that any canidate taking a IPSA Organised course must be in posession a Licence for the pistol he or she will use for the duration of the course. No exceptions.

jaycee

Item 1 . Blank Firing pistol ! for your comp licence you must shoot a final qualifier stage with a 60% score on paper

I realise that Les,

I meant for the purpose of teaching basic handling and safety skills ..a blank firing pistol could be used ..and legally too.

A comp licence is a further stage ,the pursuit of which and desire for same presumably would be contingent on actually owning a pistol .

les45

I would agree , a blank / replica would be a ideal for teaching the fundmentals , in relation to the IPSA course it is a requirement that you must have a live firing pistol to complete the course.

Markhor

Good evening all,
I have been following with interest the discussion on reloading and would put forward a few points.
Twenty years ago I purchased a reloading kit from the UK but was not able to get the importation licence for it from Dublin Castle after a protracted interval.
I have been reading and studying about reloading since that time and would say that it is not a practice for everyone, eventhough they may be avid shooters or hunters, as it requires a great deal of care and attention to the various operations to be conducted safely. Nobody is perfect, and there is always the possibilty of making mistakes and inevitably some may be tempted to rush the procedures or perhaps deliberately create overloads, which could result in serious injury or death.
I repeat reloading is not a suitable passtime for everybody: a chap I met who was reloading his own told me how the primers were blown from the cases
and the gas entered his nose and eyes at high pressure. Reloading requires the careful working up of loads from minimums as stated in the reloading manuals and it does requires long and careful study of these publications in order to fully understand the entire concept ever before one practices
reloading.
I would advise anyone wishing to reload in the future to get their hands on as many manuals and books on the topic as possible and study them first.