A different kind of chip guard

Mmmm_Lemony

One guy from a group of people I regularly play poker with, often hides small value/large value chips in a pile of other value chips. I know at any time you can ask a player how much he/she has and mostly they will tell you, but he will often not tell me. Because it is not the most professional of games, I let it pass, but have often pushed the issue with him, dropping hints here or there but he shrugs them off or says "put your chips in the middle and I'll tell ya!"
but I was wondering if

a) A player has to make it clear how much he/she has

and

b) Is deliberatley hiding chips within piles of chips against regulations.


I myself always stack chips in order of denomination and in rounded number piles, mainly for myself but also for others to see what I have. I have to admit most players are transparent with their chip count like this, but wondering what the ruling actually is?

DapperGent

They (or the dealer if there is one) have to give you a count if you ask. Stack size is an utterly essential piece of information to have and trying to obscure it by hiding chips is angle shooting and against the rules.

Most (confident) dealers will pull a player up for hiding big denomination chips. I have actually seen some players who constantly rest their hands over their chips completely hiding how much they have.

In either case I would normally ask them to stop doing so. Unless they were a terrible player.

bmc

You would be asked in the Fitz to keep your chips visible.

I'm not sure of the rule if asked how many chips you have because I've never seen anybody refuse.

Daithio

At any stage of a game you are fully entitled to know how many chips the other people have. They don't have to say or do anything, but it's up to the dealer to let you know if they don't want to. If there is no dealer I'd imagine it's up to the player to tell you, but you definitely have a right to know.

The Gecko

Stand rule is you must declare you chip count when asked and in lots of places you must stack your most valuable chips at the front of your chip stack i.e no hiding 5 x 1000 chips behind 10 x 100 chips.

If its a home game which it sounds like it is just clarify the ruling at the start of the game and if he is just an annoying clown ask everyone else at the table what they have and do the math. then they will be pissed of at the delay but angry at him and not you and he will soon come around.

Ollieboy

the general rule is that all chips have to be visible and the bigger size chips to the front.

When you asks for a chip count the player doesn't have to give you one, but you can go and count his chips, or the dealer or player near him can do it for you. He doesn't have to tell you. But you do have the right to know what the bet (ie allin) or the remainder of his stack is, before you make your next bet.

Rules are different depending on house rules do.

If I was ask, I would say nothing, as this can be used as a tell, a quick answer, is usually a strong hand, or sometimes I ask the dealer and the player would answer and I would fold straight away as this would indicate a strong hand. I used this last weekend and the player show AA after I said it to him about the tell.

staringelf

i know the rules in the world series were that you weren't allowed stack different denominations of chips in the same pile. ie. only 1 colour chip in each pile. not sure if that appplies in the fitz or elsewhere.

but as has been said already, you're most definately entitled to know how much he has. might i suggest a good slap upside the head on him if he continues to deny you such information

BigDragon

Ollieboy wrote:

...............the player show AA after I said it to him about the tell.

:eek: :eek: :eek: :eek: :eek: :eek: :eek: :eek:

Ollieboy

Yeh I know Big, but he was another PP player and a friend.

Mmmm_Lemony

Thanks for the pointers, slap up side the head seems the only option. lol.

---

This might sound lame to some of you or might not but, as a side question, when playing live games do you always have a fairly accurate count on your own chips, or would you employ a system of say, every few hands doing a quick check.

I make alot of small mistakes and errors, but when added together, they affect a big porition of my game, and like driving the only way to correct bad habits is to force the right habits until they are second nature.

Obviously it's good to know what you got at ANY stage, but does it play a very big part of your table manner and your ability to be a step above the rest? Could this be considered something that should be a part of a good players game, or is it an 'each to their own' approach.

---

Edit: Actually one more thing that I thought of. While a hand is in play and you are yet to act, or have not acted on a raise/re-raise, and the action is on another player, is it frowned upon to count your chips?

I have done this before when there has been more than 2/3 people involved in a pot, and say, someone has raised all in, I will often count my chips, and look at the all in player while another player is making a decision to see if I can get a tell. (Obviously counting them my side of the line). Is this considered bad form, or on a par with string betting, even though the action is not on you?

Hope this is clear

BigDragon

Mmmm_Lemony wrote:

Edit: Actually one more thing that I thought of. While a hand is in play and you are yet to act, or have not acted on a raise/re-raise, and the action is on another player, is it frowned upon to count your chips?

I have done this before when there has been more than 2/3 people involved in a pot, and say, someone has raised all in, I will often count my chips, and look at the all in player while another player is making a decision to see if I can get a tell. (Obviously counting them my side of the line). Is this considered bad form, or on a par with string betting, even though the action is not on you?

Hope this is clear

No but in honour of ollieboys generosity I'll tell you this.....ITS A TELL DONT DO IT

Mmmm_Lemony

OK then

3 player

player 1 all in

player 2 deciding

player 3 (you) count your chips in the hope of taking player 2 off the pot, thus increasing your own chances if you decide to call.

Good play/ illegal play/ or what.

bmc

Mmmm_Lemony wrote:

OK then

3 player

player 1 all in

player 2 deciding

player 3 (you) count your chips in the hope of taking player 2 off the pot, thus increasing your own chances if you decide to call.

Good play/ illegal play/ or what.

You're not going to get pulled up on it unless you throw in a bit of speech play too. I reckon it's ok. (ish)

ollyk1

its a perfectly legal play to count your chips behind the line at anytime. But you should listen to BigD carefully. Don't forget if you have a drawing hand you want the other guy to call too.

BigDragon

Mmmm_Lemony wrote:

OK then

3 player

player 1 all in

player 2 deciding

player 3 (you) count your chips in the hope of taking player 2 off the pot, thus increasing your own chances if you decide to call.

Good play/ illegal play/ or what.

There is nothing illegal about it. However the action is about whether you want player 2 in the pot or not. Its a tell (be it a false one or real one)

Ollieboy

Big, I've a funny feeling you'll use that against me some nite.lol

I always know what my stack size is and what the average stack size is in the tourment and I always try to know what the larges stack size is. But more important, I always keep an eye on each persons stack size on my table, this will effect their betting paterns. You also need to know this, as it can be used for a force bet.

There's nothing wrong counting your chips before the player makes the move, as this might put him off going allin in the first place, ie if you want to see another card etc, but in general, its all tells. Nothing is really frown on at the table, its all part of the game, but dont discuss a hand thats in progress or tell people what you had or what your laying down, I hate this, as you can get a tell from the other guys face.

BigDragon

BigDragon wrote:

No but in honour of ollieboys generosity I'll tell you this.....ITS A TELL DONT DO IT

Mmmmmmmmm. Sorry I was saying 'No its not illegal' not 'No its not clear'. Just reread the post and it didnt come over correctly. Sorry.

Mmmm_Lemony

I was thinking in terms of taking the other guy out because he probably can beat you, but mr. all in has no chance, so as a mannerism strategy, is it ok to bluff like your ready to call, or re-raise to take the other guy of the pot. In a simlar way as you would lift your cards up and shuffle them with the 30 yard stare, as if to say, 'I can't play with these cards, I'm folding my turn' to get the guy in the pot.
I take your point though and thanks.



What say you of having a chip count of your own chips?

bmc

Mmmm_Lemony wrote:

What say you of having a chip count of your own chips?

Always know your own chip count. Also know your chip count in Big Blinds and know it in rounds of the table. Crucial information!

Mmmm_Lemony

bmc wrote:

Always know your own chip count. Also know your chip count in Big Blinds and know it in rounds of the table. Crucial information!

Thanks, will make note from now on.

bohsman

Mmmm_Lemony wrote:

I was thinking in terms of taking the other guy out because he probably can beat you, but mr. all in has no chance, so as a mannerism strategy, is it ok to bluff like your ready to call, or re-raise to take the other guy of the pot. In a simlar way as you would lift your cards up and shuffle them with the 30 yard stare, as if to say, 'I can't play with these cards, I'm folding my turn' to get the guy in the pot.
I take your point though and thanks.



What say you of having a chip count of your own chips?

Maybe in a freeroll but players will quickly figure out that you're acting and can then use it against you

5starpool

Personally, I always know how much I have, and a pretty good idea of all stacks, unless I am in seat 10 or 1, then the other side of the dealer can be hard to see. The only time I ask for a rough count is to use it as a 'warning', especially if I have them covered. I only do this with less experienced players though from time to time. Usually a quick count is pretty easy to do though as most players are decent about the way they stack them.

califano

I was watching the 2005 wsop main event on tv the other night. Tiffany Williamson asked Greg Raymer how many chips he had left. Raymer tells her immediately exactly how much he had and Williamson asked the dealer to verify. Very disrespectful i thought. I was calling her some names.

Ollieboy

Yeh, I saw that, but did he not say that he had her covered, I dont think he said how much.

But that was a mad table, I thought someone was going to hit her, than she got up and walk around the place. After meeting her and seeing her play, she's very slow and would drive you mad. But seems to know her game.

califano

Yeah im not sure if Raymer said he had her covered but i dont think that matered she just asked the dealer out of spite. She is so vexing, did you see her agonising a decision she had to make on a re-raise all in by Shiekon that she finally layed down with KhJh arrrrgh!. "can i at least see the hand". Gimme a break. She put me on tilt 'watching poker'!!