Odd underraise rule - VC poker

Mr. Flibble

Was playing on VC today and this happened:
- I called the blinds
- the button underraised all in
- the SB raised

then i was only given the option of calling or folding even though the SB had raised. Shouldn't I be able to raise here? Its a bit odd that the SB can raise here as much as s/he likes and know they cannot be reraised.

D: Luynes is the dealer.
D: georgeestep posted big blind.
D: Game [26] started with 6 players.
D: Dealing Hole Cards.
D: Matt e folded.
D: mr. flibble called 200
D: allor0 called 200
D: beep20 called 200 and raised 100 and is All-in
D: Under-Raise rules are now in effect.
D: Luynes called 300 and raised 400
D: georgeestep folded.
D: It's your turn.
D: mr. flibble has 10 seconds to respond.
D: mr. flibble called 500 -- No option to raise here
D: allor0 folded.
D: Dealing flop.
D: Board cards [Ks 8h Kd]
D: It's your turn.
D: mr. flibble has 10 seconds to respond.
D: mr. flibble checked.
D: Luynes checked.
D: Dealing turn.
D: Board cards [Ks 8h Kd 2c]
D: mr. flibble checked.
D: Luynes bet 200
D: mr. flibble called 200
D: Dealing river.
D: Board cards [Ks 8h Kd 2c 2s]
D: mr. flibble checked.
D: Luynes checked.
D: Showdown!
D: mr. flibble has Two Pair: Kings and 2s
D: Luynes has Two Pair: Kings and Jacks
D: Luynes wins 1,200 with Two Pair: Kings and Jacks
D: Luynes has Two Pair: Kings and Jacks
D: mr. flibble has Two Pair: Kings and 2s
D: beep20 has Two Pair: Kings and 2s
D: Luynes wins 1,300 with Two Pair: Kings and Jacks
D: Hand is over.

Samson

Mr. Flibble wrote:

Was playing on VC today and this happened:
- I called the blinds
- the button underraised all in
- the SB raised

then i was only given the option of calling or folding even though the SB had raised. Shouldn't I be able to raise here? Its a bit odd that the SB can raise here as much as s/he likes and know they cannot be reraised.

The reason that the SB can raise, is that he has not yet been given an opportunity to do so. You had your chance, and just flat called the BB, therefore you can only call the under-raise.

bmc

Samson wrote:

The reason that the SB can raise, is that he has not yet been given an opportunity to do so. You had your chance, and just flat called the BB, therefore you can only call the under-raise.

I think the problem is, since the SB did make a full raise, how come he couldn't THEN reraise?

(I was about to write your reply)

DubTony

Just curious ... what were you holding?

bohsman

DubTony wrote:

Just curious ... what were you holding?

Very well spotted

Shortstack

He should have been able to re-raise again as the small blind has re-opened the betting for everyone else.

Mr. Flibble

AQ. Glad I couldn't reraise.

Mr. Flibble

I sent them an email and here's their reply:

---

Thank you for your recent email.

As you had already called 200 chips before the under-raise rule came in to effect, therefore your only option is to call or fold.

Under-raise: This occurs when a player raises a prior bet but has to go all-in to do so. If the player under-raising … going all-in to raise … has less than half of the expected raise for that betting round, the betting round is locked. The term locked here means that any player who has already acted in the round (checked, called, or raised) may no longer raise. They may only call or fold. However, players who have yet to act (betting has not reached them yet) may raise the expected raise for that betting round, after calling. If the under-raise is half or more than the expected raise, the lock rule does not apply.

Please do not hesitate to contact us if you have any further queries regarding this matter.

---

So they dont seem to agree. Are they just plain wrong?
It certainly doesn't seem correct.


Conor

Hectorjelly

Yeah Ive noticed this and AFAIK its a mistake. The reason it hasnt been fixed is because you need an unusual series of events, a shortstack needs to go all in and then someone who hasnt acted must put in another (real) raise, and then someone must want to raise having already had the action on them.

RoundTower

This is a mistake.

You should write back to them and tell them that you understand the idea of the under-raise not re-opening ("unlocking") the betting. They probably send this email a dozen times a day to people who don't understand that, and may not have looked any closer at your email.

Tell them that the betting should be re-opened once any player makes a full raise.

There is one more situation to be considered -- where no one makes a full raise but two players make under-raises that add up to a full raise. In the Fitz this is considered a raise, not sure about elsewhere.

Mr. Flibble

I don't understand how that works RoundTower.

If the last bet is 200 say (so a full raise must be at least 200) and the 1st player underraises all in for 100. The next player only has 200 in chips - if he has already had a chance to raise then he can only call half his stack for 100 due to the underraise rule. If he hasn't had a chance to raise yet then his raise to 200 is a full raise and will reopen the betting for all.

I don't see how two underraises can add up to a full raise - subsequent players only have to call the last max bet - the bets don't get summed together. Am I missing something here, it is late ?

DapperGent

I think (but I'm not sure) that it might work like:

UTG flat calls 200.
UTG +1 underraises allin to 300.
Next underre(rerere)raises all in to 400.

If it gets back to UTG he should be able to reopen the betting because although it's been underraised all the way along his 200 has still been raised to 400.

Mr. Flibble

Ok. I'd agree that that should reopen raising.

Mr. Flibble

---

Thank you for your recent email.

After further review it has been established that you should have been able to re-raise. The details of this rule have been passed to our Development Team and will have a fix in the next few release schedules.

Apologies for any inconvenience caused.

Please do not hesitate to contact us if you have any further queries regarding this matter.

Kind regards
---
From VC

bmc

wp

Samson

Had I bothered to read the hand history thingy I might have twigged that you should have been able to raise the legit raise of the SB. As mentioned, he has re-opened the betting.
Sorry (for some reason I was thinking about the hand as if SB just called the under-raise).