Competition for Dublin Bus?

luckat

What happened about that plan to offer private companies some of Dublin Bus's routes - wasn't it supposed to happen by now?

I'm freezing to death waiting for buses that don't come on time, and I'm late to work when the buses let me down, or else have to pay for a taxi.

Isn't it about time there was a bit of competition to jizz up Dublin Bus?

BrianD

You will still be stuck with the one operator on each route. It makes absolutely no sense to have competition on a route.

BTW did you check a time table before you left?

Alun

BrianD wrote:

BTW did you check a time table before you left?

Have you ever actually used a bus in Dublin, Brian? Obviously not, since a) it's nigh on impossible (except for a few routes) to actually determine when the bus is supposed to arrive at a particular stop that isn't listed on the timetable, and b) the chances of it actually arriving on time, if at all, are close to zero.

BrianD

I live in Dublin and yes I do use the bus though not everyday. I found that the services are quite timely when you look at the time table. I used to complain about the 48A from town but since checking the time table I know that there are 20 min intervals in the evening explaining my long wait.

I'm always amazed about these experiments the newpapers do from time to time where they ask 3 drivers to switch to the bus for a day. Mr. high powered executive wanders down to the bus stop without checking a time table and complains about the delay. If he was that unprepared in his business life he wouldn't be driving his beamer.

I agree it used to be pain when the time table only showed the departure from the terminus. The newer timetables have interval times as well.

luckat

I carry the timetable for the buses I take regularly with me. In the last three days the 54A from Tallaght has failed to come within half an hour of its scheduled time at my stop every day.

Competition within routes would be better, of course - but on the other hand, if I had a choice, if the 54A was tardy and inefficient, of going over to the 49A run by Connex, say, the fact that the 54A lost customers might affect its drivers' attitudes to their work - assuming Dublin Bus kept records of what routes were making money, of course, which may or may not be so.

markpb

BrianD wrote:

I live in Dublin and yes I do use the bus though not everyday. I found that the services are quite timely when you look at the time table.

The timetable isn't much use when the bus doesn't run at all or (as shltter explained in another thread) the buses leave early.

I'm always amazed about these experiments the newpapers do from time to time where they ask 3 drivers to switch to the bus for a day. Mr. high powered executive wanders down to the bus stop without checking a time table and complains about the delay. If he was that unprepared in his business life he wouldn't be driving his beamer.

Mr. high-powered businessman probably expects a reasonably reliable bus service - not one where buses randomly don't run, stop to change buses, drivers or passengers mid-route, leave early or have huge (timetabled) gaps for no apparent reason :-)

ballooba

Maybe they could have live tracking of the buses a la Aircoach.

Then again.. "The Uuuunion wouldn't like that bud." :rolleyes:

Alun

BrianD wrote:

I live in Dublin and yes I do use the bus though not everyday. I found that the services are quite timely when you look at the time table. I used to complain about the 48A from town but since checking the time table I know that there are 20 min intervals in the evening explaining my long wait.

I live about 5 minutes from the 145 route from Kilmacanogue to Dublin via Bray. At certain times of the day the buses are supposed to be at 20 minute intervals too, so if I didn't look at a timetable, on average I'd be waiting about 10 minutes, but in my experience I usually wait between 15 and 30 minutes. And at other times when the service is less frequent if I do try and guess what time the bus is due, and leave with plenty of time in hand, I still end up waiting 20 minutes or more, or like the other day, nearly 40 minutes.

I agree it used to be pain when the time table only showed the departure from the terminus. The newer timetables have interval times as well.

Only for some routes though, and the 145 (and the 45A which also goes past my door) isn't one of them. They do say 25 minutes from Kilmacanogue to Bray, but that doesn't really help that much.

Ray777

I live in an area only served by one Dublin Bus route (the 84 - quite infrequent) and with the very occasional exception (always traffic-related), I've never had a problem with it. I find the idea that 'competition' would offer an improved service absolutely ridiculous. There aren't many Irish private operators with the fleet capacity to run even a single route (and those that do, operate 15-year-old ex-BAC buses). Obviously, the likes of First Bus, Stagecoach, Connex, etc would step in... and we all know how successful privatisation of public transport in Britain has been.

The real answer to Dublin Bus' problems is for the government to deliver on its promise to allocate more money for the purchase of new buses. At the moment, they're stretched to the limit and simply can't improve on existing services or add new ones.

Alun

Ray777 wrote:

Obviously, the likes of First Bus, Stagecoach, Connex, etc would step in... and we all know how successful privatisation of public transport in Britain has been.

Do we? I have to say that on the occasions I've availed of bus services from these operators in the UK recently they've at least been on time according to the timetable which is more than you can say of DB. And if DB are struggling to provide the frequency of buses that they advertise in their timetables, I'd prefer it if they'd just admit it and publish a timetable that bears some relation to what they can actually deliver rather than some kind of perfect-world fantasy timetable that's of no use to anyone.

daymobrew

luckat wrote:

I carry the timetable for the buses I take regularly with me. In the last three days the 54A from Tallaght has failed to come within half an hour of its scheduled time at my stop every day.

If a bus does not show then phone the depot, listed at the bottom of the timetable, to ask why.

54A Timetable wrote:

Operated by DONNYBROOK Depot. Telephone (01)703 4420

Readers of this forum cannot these things.

John R

luckat wrote:

I carry the timetable for the buses I take regularly with me. In the last three days the 54A from Tallaght has failed to come within half an hour of its scheduled time at my stop every day.

Competition within routes would be better, of course - but on the other hand, if I had a choice, if the 54A was tardy and inefficient, of going over to the 49A run by Connex, say, the fact that the 54A lost customers might affect its drivers' attitudes to their work - assuming Dublin Bus kept records of what routes were making money, of course, which may or may not be so.

The 54A is a bad route for timekeeping at present, at certain times it does not have enough time to get to the terminus before it is due to go back.

All the Tallaght routes are due to be changed, they were supposed to have been done already. The 54a is to be extended to Ellensborough along with several changes to the other routes including running them all through the city to terminate at Ringsend.


At the moment there are little or no plans to develop bus services in Dublin apart from the odd tweaks (good and bad) that Dublin Bus regularly make and the emergency shuffles to cater for the whims of the asshats in the local authorities who refuse to consider the effects on bus services of any of their grand plans.

The whole service has been in limbo for years now, successive transport ministers have floated different ideas as publicity stunts without any sort of proper planning. None of them have gotten anywhere near being implemented. Meanwhile they have not allowed Dublin Bus expand it's fleet as promised in the NDP as that goes against their privatisation ideology.

Every year the congestion gets worse, every year the city expands further and every year more people use the services that are provided but no extra resources are being put in place to expand into new and re-developed areas never mind better serving the current routes.

Out of the €31Bn Transport 21 plan the entirety of funding for bus services in Duiblin is 20 new buses. That is 20 buses that DB had ordered last year and were already nearing delivery.

Gurgle

Every once in a while I use a bus in Dublin, and I always regret it.
Some questions for you fans of BAC:
- Why are there no bus routes that follow even a reasonably straight line for more than 20 metres ?
- Why do they all avoid the roads with the 'Quality bus corridors' ? (Is that a union stipulation ?)
- Timetables ? Suggestions ? Clues ?
- Does anyone, ever, gather up enough tickets to go and claim their 5c, 20c etc rebates back in O'Connell street ? Is there any other way to get this money back ?

Every time I sit in one of these pointless things I'm reminded why I spent my college years in Dublin walking, cycling and eventually driving - Its quicker, cheaper and less stressful!

Dubliners are just too bloody stupid to plan, organize or implement public transport. That goes for everyone from the drivers in their perspex boxes to senior management with their fake PhDs.

John R

Alun wrote:

Do we? I have to say that on the occasions I've availed of bus services from these operators in the UK recently they've at least been on time according to the timetable which is more than you can say of DB. And if DB are struggling to provide the frequency of buses that they advertise in their timetables, I'd prefer it if they'd just admit it and publish a timetable that bears some relation to what they can actually deliver rather than some kind of perfect-world fantasy timetable that's of no use to anyone.

The only parts of the UK with decent bus services are those where the local authorities heavily subsidise the private operators to a far higher level than Dublin Bus currently recieve.

London is the perfect example, all the services are operated by one of about 10 different private operators but all the services are controled by TfL which runs all public transoprt in London under the authority of the Mayor. They heavily subsidise all services and the fares go to them, all the private operators are contracted to run the services. Minimum standards of all aspects of the services are part of the contracts so the operators face stiff penalties if they fail to meet them. The upside to this is that there is much better control and customer service the downside is that it is very expensive to run.

If the current Dublin Bus operating revenue was spent on running this type of system it would only fund about 1/2 - 2/3 of the current number of buses that are run in Dublin.

The authorities here need to decide what they want, Dublin Bus have over the last 20 years been pushed more and more to reduce subsidy costs to a minimum while still attempting to provide some kind of social service on the side. By doing that they satisfy neither demand properly.

shltter

ballooba wrote:

Maybe they could have live tracking of the buses a la Aircoach.

Then again.. "The Uuuunion wouldn't like that bud." :rolleyes:

The unions have no objection to live tracking and a system to enable it is in the process of being implemented.

shltter

Gurgle wrote:

Every once in a while I use a bus in Dublin, and I always regret it.
Some questions for you fans of BAC:
- Why are there no bus routes that follow even a reasonably straight line for more than 20 metres ?.

Buses have to serve the areas people live in and want to go

Gurgle wrote:

- Why do they all avoid the roads with the 'Quality bus corridors' ? (Is that a union stipulation ?).

They don't and the unions do not stipulate were any bus route goes.

Gurgle wrote:

- Timetables ? Suggestions ? Clues ?.

How long did you go to college without learning how to frame a question?

Gurgle wrote:

- Does anyone, ever, gather up enough tickets to go and claim their 5c, 20c etc rebates back in O'Connell street ? Is there any other way to get this money back ?.

Many people do if you are to lazy or dont have the intelligence you could donate the money to charity.

Gurgle wrote:

Every time I sit in one of these pointless things I'm reminded why I spent my college years in Dublin walking, cycling and eventually driving - Its quicker, cheaper and less stressful!



Dubliners are just too bloody stupid to plan, organize or implement public transport. That goes for everyone from the drivers in their perspex boxes to senior management with their fake PhDs.

Yes everyone in Dublin is stupid :rolleyes: Unlike yourself who does not understand why Buses don't just take the most direct route from A to B

Alun

John R wrote:

The only parts of the UK with decent bus services are those where the local authorities heavily subsidise the private operators to a far higher level than Dublin Bus currently recieve.

I'm interested to know how you come to that conclusion, as my most recent experiences of the same have been very different. They involved getting to and from the start and end points of a long distance footpath in rural South West England (Somerset, Devon and Cornwall) starting at Exeter Airport. Each journey involved two bus journeys and one or two train journeys all of which were bang on time, the buses were clean, and the drivers were both polite and helpful (please note, DB!). The same experience was had last year in Wales, so excuse me if I disagree with you on that one.

shltter

luckat wrote:

What happened about that plan to offer private companies some of Dublin Bus's routes - wasn't it supposed to happen by now?

I'm freezing to death waiting for buses that don't come on time, and I'm late to work when the buses let me down, or else have to pay for a taxi.

Isn't it about time there was a bit of competition to jizz up Dublin Bus?

Seamus Brennan got sacked before he could do anymore damage.

Even under Brennans idea ( you could not call it a plan) there would not be direct competition between operators so you would not be able to choose who you travelled with unless you moved House.


We still have pretty much the same number of buses we had 10 years ago despite the explosion in QBCs the growth of Thousands of new houses the massive increase in the number of jobs and Population

The only way for DB to increase service on one route is to take buses from another Route which is next to impossible once the local TDs etc find out.

Metrobest

If you need proof of the incompetence of Dublin Bus, just check out this timetable taken from their website. Route 92, launched amidst much hoo-hah last year, was supposed to link the two luas lines. But the timetable doesn't even mention luas. Instead: "Heuston" (CIE) - "Wilton Terrace" (I haven't heard of it either).

http://www.dublinbus.ie/your_journey/viewer.asp?route=92

Type "luas" into the Dublin Bus routefinder and you get "no routes found". It's as if Luas didn't even exist. I guess that has something to do with the luas being run by a non-CIE company.

Roll on privatisation.

John R

Gurgle wrote:

- Why are there no bus routes that follow even a reasonably straight line for more than 20 metres ?

Because in most cases one bus route is serving areas that should have 2,3 or even 4 seperate routes. But there aren't enough buses for that, if the routes were split with current resources there would only be enough buses for hourly or worse frequencies on the routes.

Gurgle wrote:

- Why do they all avoid the roads with the 'Quality bus corridors' ? (Is that a union stipulation ?)

I am not sure that is true in most cases but the fact that the people who plan and implement bus lanes have nothing to do with operating buses does not help. The only large sections of bus lane that are not used that I know of are the orbital routes. The Airport-Howth Rd route was abandoned by AerDart, they sold/gave their licence for the route to FirstBus (Aircoach) who still hold it now. Under Department Of Transport rules that means they have exclusive rights to run a service along that corridor. Nobody else, including Dublin Bus can run operate on that route regardless of what FirstBus do with their licence.

Gurgle wrote:

- Timetables ? Suggestions ? Clues ?

Most buses do run to time, some routes are particularly bad though and are incapable of running to time for several hours every day, this trows off the service for the rest of the time. Most of the routes that have had new timetables in the last few years are much better as more slack is given to allow for traffic congestion. The process where each and every timetable change has to be submitted to the DoT for approval which can take an indefinite amount of time slows progress to a snails pace leaving many routes with timetables that are too tight for current traffic levels.

Gurgle wrote:

- Does anyone, ever, gather up enough tickets to go and claim their 5c, 20c etc rebates back in O'Connell street ? Is there any other way to get this money back ?

Lots of people do, there are always queues in O'Connell St handing them in. The whole thing is just a stupid waste, it delays boarding and is an expensive accounting headache for DB, They are not allowed touch the unclaimed change money either so they do not profit from the system in any way.[/QUOTE]

John R

Metrobest wrote:

If you need proof of the incompetence of Dublin Bus, just check out this timetable taken from their website. Route 92, launched amidst much hoo-hah last year, was supposed to link the two luas lines. But the timetable doesn't even mention luas. Instead: "Heuston" (CIE) - "Wilton Terrace" (I haven't heard of it either).

http://www.dublinbus.ie/your_journey/viewer.asp?route=92

Type "luas" into the Dublin Bus routefinder and you get "no routes found". It's as if Luas didn't even exist. I guess that has something to do with the luas being run by a non-CIE company.

Roll on privatisation.

From that same link:

SERVING:
Heuston Station
Quays (Route 90 stops)
D'Oiler Street
Trinity College
Nassau Street
Kildare Street
St. Stephen's Green East
Leeson Street
Wilton Terrace

The route was never specifically designed to link the two LUAS lines, it's main purpose was to provide a direct link to/from Heuston to the south city centre area. It originally terminated on Stephen's Green but because of DublinCityCouncil had refused to remove adequate on-street parking from Stephen's green the waiting bus was getting in the way of all the other services using the same stop. They then changed the terminus to a better location but the bus still serves Stephen's green. What exaxtly is the problem?

Ray777

Alun wrote:

Do we? I have to say that on the occasions I've availed of bus services from these operators in the UK recently they've at least been on time according to the timetable which is more than you can say of DB.

Any time I've availed of Dublin Bus services recently, with the exception of traffic-related delays, they have been on time, according to the timetable. On the recent occasions I've availed of (private) bus services in Greater Manchester, I was amazed at the decrepid state of some of the (early '80s) buses and the aloof rudeness of the drivers.

Alun wrote:

And if DB are struggling to provide the frequency of buses that they advertise in their timetables, I'd prefer it if they'd just admit it and publish a timetable that bears some relation to what they can actually deliver rather than some kind of perfect-world fantasy timetable that's of no use to anyone.

I think the trouble is, that there are various factors that determine the punctuality of bus services. Today, a bus might take an hour to get out of the city centre, due to traffic (weather, accidents, broken traffic lights, etc). Tomorrow, the traffic could be lighter and that same bus only takes 20 minutes to get out of the city. As has already been mentioned, they can't just change the timetable whenever they want. And even if they could, what are they supposed to do? Different timetable for every day, maybe? I fail to see what the privateers could to to remedy the situation either.

Metrobest wrote:

Roll on privatisation.

Yes, when everything will be perfect and the buses will smell of roses. Jesus wept.

shltter

Quote:
Originally Posted by Metrobest
Roll on privatisation.

Ray777 wrote:

Yes, when everything will be perfect and the buses will smell of roses. Jesus wept.

Or we can look for ward to companies just cancelling services without any warning like Aircoach did on the IFSC to Airport route

Or the Bus that used to operate from tallaght to the Airport can't remember the operator off hand now
Or shuting up shop because of lack of Profitability like Aerdart

Yes it will be all great when it is privatised and profit becomes the only objective

Metrobest

You only have to look at the way Luas is run by Connex (private) as opposed to DART (state subsidised) to see that private companies are more efficient.

Done properly, privatisation works. We don't have to copy Manchester.. why do people who support unionised state transport companies always seem to refer to the English examples when there are dozens of better models across all of Europe? Connex, for example, runs buses in Stockholm and Amsterdam, amongst others, and let me tell you those buses are run far more efficiently than BAC's.

Under franchises, private operators should run the high-volume, high-demand routes. Dublin Bus can then live up to its vacuous motto of "serving the entire community" by providing services where a private operator would find them uneconomic.

If a private operator ran Dublin Bus, you would not have the absurb situation of drivers switching buses mid-route, of parked buses clogging up valuable city centre streets, of chaotic bus queues, of illegible fairytale timetables (in Irish to confuse passengers even more!), of never knowing when the next bus is due.....

Look at the way Dublin Bus operates in the city centre. Do you seriously believe that Dublin Bus is running an efficient service? Cities in South America have a more efficient bus service than Dublin.

Examples of Dublin Bus incompetence include, but are not limited to, the following:
- Ticket machines at Ireland's international airport that don't work
- Controllers who stand away from passengers who might want to ask them a question or two about when the next bus is due
- Dismal route management in the city centre where too many buses use the same stop, causing congestion and raising safety issues in places like Nassau and O'Connell Street
- Drivers at city centre termini leaving passengers in the freezing cold and rain: sitting on board the bus reading the paper, hiding from the passengers, maximising their downtime oblivious to their customers getting soaked waiting for long periods at shelter-less bus poles.
- Zero communcation with passengers when (the frequent) delays occur
- Last buses at 11.30 leaving passengers stranded for an hour or forced into taxis and nitelinks while private operator Connex runs the luas till 12.30
- A complete failure to modernise and raise its game in the face of new competition, new modes, and, most damning of all a failure to provide an effective alternative to the private car

Those of you who think that improving Dublin's bus service is about giving more money or more buses to Dublin Bus are missing the point. Dublin Bus squanders every cent the taxpayer gives through inefficient use of its existing services.

You don't make state monopolies like Dublin Bus efficient by throwing more money at them. The only way to keep them on their toes is increase competition and demand operational efficiencies from which would include changes to work practices and a supervisory board with the power to sack management if it fails to implement the 21st century services which Dubliners need and deserve.

Ray777

Metrobest wrote:

Done properly, privatisation works. We don't have to copy Manchester.. why do people who support unionised state transport companies always seem to refer to the English examples when there are dozens of better models across all of Europe? Connex, for example, runs buses in Stockholm and Amsterdam, amongst others, and let me tell you those buses are run far more efficiently than BAC's.

Done properly, anything works, tbh. However, Ireland shares far more in common with Britain than with Sweden or the Netherlands, so it's quite normal to refer to our nearest neighbour when making comparisons. And I'm sure even you will agree that privatisation of public transport in Britain has been an abject failure. I think it's fair to say that the successful private operators in those countries are operating within a vastly superior infrastructure to that of Dublin. With improved funding and a public-transport-friendly infrastructure, I'm quite certain that Dublin Bus could operate a perfect service, permanently silencing those who are naive enough to believe that privatisation is some sort of 'holy grail'.

shltter

Metrobest wrote:

You only have to look at the way Luas is run by Connex (private) as opposed to DART (state subsidised) to see that private companies are more efficient.

Done properly, privatisation works. We don't have to copy Manchester.. why do people who support unionised state transport companies always seem to refer to the English examples when there are dozens of better models across all of Europe? Connex, for example, runs buses in Stockholm and Amsterdam, amongst others, and let me tell you those buses are run far more efficiently than BAC's. .

http://www.csenews.net/introduction.html

http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/uk/988239.stm

Connex also had a train service removed from them in the UK because the service was ****e

http://connexwhinger.blogspot.com/2005_04_03_connexwhinger_archive.html

Here is a site complaining about Connex in Melbourne

and more
http://www.walkingmelbourne.com/forum/viewtopic.php?t=616

The Luas was Built and set up for Connex (by a semi state company)
And you are comparing apples and oranges the Luas system and the Dart are completely different as well you know from the Dart sharing its line with Mainline Rail to the Dart having to operate and staff Stations
Beside which I think the Dart is a very good service at least they have never crashed 2 darts into each other.

Metrobest wrote:

Under franchises, private operators should run the high-volume, high-demand routes. Dublin Bus can then live up to its vacuous motto of "serving the entire community" by providing services where a private operator would find them uneconomic. .

That is an absolutely ridicolous suggestion what you are suggesting is let the private operators take the profit and saddle the state company wth all the loss making routes what benefit would that be to the tax payer who would end up having to subsidise all the uneconomic while multinational companies like stagecoach and Firstbus would make tidy profits

Metrobest wrote:

If a private operator ran Dublin Bus, you would not have the absurb situation of drivers switching buses mid-route, of parked buses clogging up valuable city centre streets, of chaotic bus queues, of illegible fairytale timetables (in Irish to confuse passengers even more!), of never knowing when the next bus is due......

So where would the private operator change shifts and keep within the worktime direct and various legislation whilst providing its staff with a facility to have a meal break
And what about all the Private operator buses that are parked around town at the moment

People will have to Queue for buses no matter who operates the service

Explain how having a private operator would allow buses not to be subject to Gridlock

Metrobest wrote:

Look at the way Dublin Bus operates in the city centre. Do you seriously believe that Dublin Bus is running an efficient service? Cities in South America have a more efficient bus service than Dublin.

Examples of Dublin Bus incompetence include, but are not limited to, the following:
- Ticket machines at Ireland's international airport that don't work.

Those ticket machines were installed because the companies express bus service to the Airport was due to convert to Autofare exact fare operation as per a Labour Court ruling. However the Drivers who operated those routes decided themselves that the Autofare system was not suitalble to the express service and the sytem was never implemented on those routes so the machines became pretty much surplus to requirements.( And they are **** as well)

Metrobest wrote:

- Controllers who stand away from passengers who might want to ask them a question or two about when the next bus is due.

I have to agree with you on this one the Controller on the street does not work. The control of the routes should be away from the interface with passengers

Metrobest wrote:

- Dismal route management in the city centre where too many buses use the same stop, causing congestion and raising safety issues in places like Nassau and O'Connell Street.

Dublin Bus cannot just put stops in where they like also passengers actually want the Buses that are going in a similar direction close to each other
For example if you are in O'Connell St and intend to travel to Drumcondra then there are a couple of different buses you could take if they stopped at Different ends of O'Connell St then people would equally complain

Metrobest wrote:

- Drivers at city centre termini leaving passengers in the freezing cold and rain: sitting on board the bus reading the paper, hiding from the passengers, maximising their downtime oblivious to their customers getting soaked waiting for long periods at shelter-less bus poles. .

Ok take Abbey St for example if the Driver of a 32 pulls up to the stop 10 or 15 minutes before he is due to depart the Bus will fill up with people who are travelling from anywhere between Amiens Street and the Coast Road. Then a 31 comes around and loads up the people who are just going to Howth and heads of now the 32 Bus Driver has a Bus full of people who are pissed off because the Bus they are on is not going anywhere for 10 minutes and a near empty bus has just headed off and it could have taken them home.
Not only that but if the Bus fills up completely it has to move off early leaving behind people who want to travel to Portmarnock and full of people going to Fairview or Raheny who have a choice of Bus to take.
Sometimes what look like meaness is actually in the passengers own interest and if you have ever had the snot eaten off you because someone is sitting on a Bus for ten minutes you will think more carefully the next time.

Metrobest wrote:

- Zero communcation with passengers when (the frequent) delays occur
- Last buses at 11.30 leaving passengers stranded for an hour or forced into taxis and nitelinks while private operator Connex runs the luas till 12.30.

Passengers are not stranded it is well Known what time the last bus is 11:30
Stranded would be if you were led to believe that there was one at 12 and it did not operate.

Metrobest wrote:

- A complete failure to modernise and raise its game in the face of new competition, new modes, and, most damning of all a failure to provide an effective alternative to the private car.

Dublin Bus has mordernised it is a completely different company to even 10 years ago
Low floor wheelchair accessible Buses
New Ticket machines
New Radio System
Developing a Automated tracking sytem
Network reviews
New Routes
Introduction of various prepaid ticket options
Changing management structure
70% of Drivers so far have completed a course in advanced Driving from the IAM
Nitelink Bus service last bus 4:30am

Metrobest wrote:

Those of you who think that improving Dublin's bus service is about giving more money or more buses to Dublin Bus are missing the point. Dublin Bus squanders every cent the taxpayer gives through inefficient use of its existing services.

You don't make state monopolies like Dublin Bus efficient by throwing more money at them. The only way to keep them on their toes is increase competition and demand operational efficiencies from which would include changes to work practices and a supervisory board with the power to sack management if it fails to implement the 21st century services which Dubliners need and deserve.

Benchmarked against other European Bus Companies
Dublin Bus is one of the most efficent Bus Companies in Europe it has one of the lowest sudsidies of around 26% of operating costs one of the lowest staff to Bus ratios

luckat

Privatisation isn't needed; what's needed is *competition* - a different thing. I've never seen a monopoly give a good service. Even the radio services improved (a little) when the pirates came in and were eventually legalised - before that, RTE had nothing to give it any impetus to improve.

shltter

luckat wrote:

Privatisation isn't needed; what's needed is *competition* - a different thing. I've never seen a monopoly give a good service. Even the radio services improved (a little) when the pirates came in and were eventually legalised - before that, RTE had nothing to give it any impetus to improve.

Direct competition is not on offer

What is/was proposed is franchising of routes or groups of routes for periods of 5 to 7 years
The competition if any would be in the application for Franchises however in the UK were similar system operates there is not much competition for franchises and alot of them are renewed with no other applicant as the big multinationals basically just divide the market up amongst themselves.

This system has also proven very costly as the Part of the subvention for operating routes is based meeting Targets in relation to timekeeping ,number of departures etc however to verify that these standards are being met large numbers of inspectors have to be employed.


As for monopolies I always considered the ESB did an excellent job and the cost was much lower prior to the introduction of competition.

luckat

True, ****ter, the ESB is generally good (though often bullying it its attitude to people who have any dispute).

How would you improve Dublin Bus' services?

Three times in the last week, I waited for over half an hour in the freezing cold for a bus that didn't come at the scheduled time. I rang the controller each time, and was told the first two times that the bus had been delayed (for *half an hour*???) and the third time that the controller couldn't contact the driver and would phone me back. Still waiting...

I now have a vicious sinus infection that's keeping me out of work for two days and for which I've had to pay for antibiotics and steroids, and I don't get sick pay.

Macy

luckat wrote:

How would you improve Dublin Bus' services?

Fund them to allow them to buy more buses to increase routes and frequency. Simple, to all but the Department of Transport...

gobdaw

shltter wrote:

Ok take Abbey St for example if the Driver of a 32 pulls up to the stop 10 or 15 minutes before he is due to depart the Bus will fill up with people who are travelling from anywhere between Amiens Street and the Coast Road. Then a 31 comes around and loads up the people who are just going to Howth and heads of now the 32 Bus Driver has a Bus full of people who are pissed off because the Bus they are on is not going anywhere for 10 minutes and a near empty bus has just headed off and it could have taken them home.
Not only that but if the Bus fills up completely it has to move off early leaving behind people who want to travel to Portmarnock and full of people going to Fairview or Raheny who have a choice of Bus to take.
Sometimes what look like meaness is actually in the passengers own interest and if you have ever had the snot eaten off you because someone is sitting on a Bus for ten minutes you will think more carefully the next time.

I dont know where or when a bus would have been 10 minutes at a terminus and allowed passengers aboard. I have widely experienced this abroad, but never in Dublin. Anyway, the public should not be patronised and not be allowes their requests "in their own interests" to be dry or warm inside their bus. It's in their interests to be left outside in the rain beside their empty bus?

Public transport, including buses, need drastic improvement. The problems are not simply public/private, insufficent buses, poor routes etc. but a combination of all these and more.
Every complex problem has a single, straightforward and simple solution, but it always turn out to be wrong. This problem can only be improved by relatively small incremental changes.

luckat

I don't honestly think that funding is the answer - or not the only answer.

For one thing, Dublin Bus seems to be an independent republic, with no one to answer to except itself. Where are the independent inspectors, the independent monitoring of timetables, the independent recognition for good work?

For another, though many of the drivers are fine and professional people, there is an undercurrent of unprofessionalism - just look at the sickcert web forum where drivers talk about the job, and you'll see them snickering at how they get back at passengers whose behaviour displeases them.

In my daily trips on buses I'm always surprised at how filthy they are. No sign of the driver closing the bus for five minutes at the end of a trip and going through with a plastic bag clearing the junk that passengers have left behind.

(And yes, the passengers should themselves be clean - but if someone leaves junk behind in my car, I'll clean it before bringing anyone else for a drive. Surely I should be able to expect the same from a professional driver?)

There's a certain lack of pride in the job and responsibility to the passengers. Not in everyone - not even in *most* drivers. But it's there as an undercurrent, and to my mind it's a sign of a sick company, and a company that doesn't believe itself answerable to its customers, its employers or its staff.

Metrobest

Specifically dealing with the issue of passengers being left to stand in the freezing cold at bus termini while drivers sit there reading the paper, you need to accept that this is indefensible, ****ter, and depite your protestations it IS mean. I suspect it boils down to trade union work practices - the bus departs at X time and the driver is not going to start "working" until this time.

You mentioned a driver's head being eaten off him because he left passengers sit on the bus for a few minutes before it departed - this occurred because the passenger probably thought the bus was due to depart, having been used to "normal practices" of Dublin Bus. People assume the worst about Dublin Bus because the only thing "regular" about it is poor customer service. And anyway, why would people complain about being let in from the freezing cold? Your attitude turns normal customer service theory on its head.

I say let's franchise out all the important bus routes in Dublin because the work practices in private companies and public companies are like different worlds. Companies like CIE are run for the benefit of their workers and management - passengers are way down the priority list. The way Connex runs the luas shows us that welfare of passengers is much higher up the priority list when the company has to make money and is not being breastfed by the state. When you need every passenger you can get, you look after your passengers.

A telling fact is that Connex allows you to sit on the tram before it's due to depart - People don't complain about this, it's one of the reasons why people love the luas: because passengers are the priority, not workers. You don't see luas drivers hopping out at Beechwood to change drivers or go to the canteen - those things are done back at base where it doesn't inconvienience customers.

I suspect that if CIE ran the luas, at the Stephen's Green terminus the doors would slam shut as passengers left the inbound tram, outbound passengers would not be allowed to get on and would have to wait till the driver was good and ready to depart. There'd probably be a few drivers hanging around the terminus smoking, having a great oul chat while passengers stood waiting, freezing, not knowing when they'd get home: just like it is with Dublin Bus.

markpb

shltter wrote:

Here is a site complaining about Connex in Melbourne

Yes, sometimes private operators suck. Sometimes they don't. It might still be early days but the overall impression for people who use the Luas is that Connex are doing a good job.

The responsibility for making sure they maintain that level lies with the DoT - the same as they should be responsible for maintaining a good level of service from DB and IE.

Beside which I think the Dart is a very good service at least they have never crashed 2 darts into each other.

Have you never waited for 25 - 35 minutes on a weekday for a train? Or stopped in the middle of nowhere for no apparent reason (breakdown, driver change, "operational difficulty") without the driver telling you why? Things like this _matter_ to people who rely on public transport. I know the Luas is a different animal but not to the average passenger.

That is an absolutely ridicolous suggestion what you are suggesting is let the private operators take the profit and saddle the state company wth all the loss making routes

Why not? DB is there to provide a public service, not make money or keep people in jobs. If other companies are providing a _good_ service on other routes, DB have all their existing buses and staff to provide a decent service on the other routes.

So where would the private operator change shifts and keep within the worktime direct and various legislation whilst providing its staff with a facility to have a meal break

I don't care... and why should I care? I care that my bus turns up on time, departs on time and provides a reasonable service. How the company internally deals with EU directives on working conditions has absolutely no interest to me.

I've never been in another city where the buses left early, or where I've had to change buses, drivers or both in the middle of the route. I neither know nor care how they achieve it so long as they do.

People will have to Queue for buses no matter who operates the service

No arguments there, anyone who thinks otherwise is living in dreamland.

if the Driver of a 32 pulls up to the stop 10 or 15 minutes before he is due to depart the Bus will fill up with people who are travelling from anywhere between Amiens Street and the Coast Road. Then a 31 comes around and loads up the people who are just going to Howth and heads of. now the 32 Bus Driver has a Bus full of people who are pissed off because the Bus they are on is not going anywhere for 10 minutes and a near empty bus has just headed off and it could have taken them home.

This is entirely solved by the driver telling people as they board that he won't be leaving for ten minutes and (if he knows) that another bus is leaving before him. If you inform passengers and let them make their own decisions, life is a lot easier for everyone.

Dublin Bus has mordernised it is a completely different company to even 10 years ago

Low floor wheelchair accessible Buses - good
New Ticket machines - makes no difference to me (right now)
New Radio System - makes no difference to me
Developing a Automated tracking sytem - makes no difference to me (and won't till 2010)

Benchmarked against other European Bus Companies
Dublin Bus is one of the most efficent Bus Companies in Europe it has one of the lowest sudsidies of around 26% of operating costs one of the lowest staff to Bus ratios

Absolutely and they're to be applauded for it -the service in dublin, in light of the schockingly poor support, if not absolute interference from the government is pretty impressive. However there are lots of things that are under the control of DB to improve passengers experience.

I'm off to get my bus home now - It's not listed on the pole at the bus stop (god knows why) so when I get there, I'll have no idea when to expect it. I use the bus regularly for short journeys but apart from buying a small portfolio of 2 trip tickets which are no cheaper and aren't on sale anywhere near my house - there's no alternative to cash so I'll be doing that.

maxheadroom

Metrobest wrote:

You don't see luas drivers hopping out at Beechwood to change drivers or go to the canteen - those things are done back at base where it doesn't inconvienience customers.

Maybe not, but it frequently happens at the Red Cow. The Green line is fortunate that its depot and terminus are one and the same - this will not be the case once the extension to cherrywood / bray happens.

The fact is that shift changeovers / breaks need to happen where the facilities for such are in place. If you want this to happen at different palces to where they currently do then you have to be prepared to fund the investment which will be needed to move these facilities.

markpb wrote:

I've never been in another city where the buses left early, or where I've had to change buses, drivers or both in the middle of the route. I neither know nor care how they achieve it so long as they do.

It happens in both Helsinki and Stockholm, both cities which are commended for their excellent public transport.

John R

luckat wrote:

For one thing, Dublin Bus seems to be an independent republic, with no one to answer to except itself. Where are the independent inspectors, the independent monitoring of timetables, the independent recognition for good work?

There aren't any because nobody in government gives a flying F.

luckat wrote:

For another, though many of the drivers are fine and professional people, there is an undercurrent of unprofessionalism - just look at the sickcert web forum where drivers talk about the job, and you'll see them snickering at how they get back at passengers whose behaviour displeases them.

So unlike every other person in the country bus drivers are not supposed to go on the net and let off steam about the endless amount of sh1t they have to deal with from the public?

Sickcert is registered here so if you have a problem take it up with him or register on his site and respond to the comments.

luckat wrote:

In my daily trips on buses I'm always surprised at how filthy they are. No sign of the driver closing the bus for five minutes at the end of a trip and going through with a plastic bag clearing the junk that passengers have left behind.

(And yes, the passengers should themselves be clean - but if someone leaves junk behind in my car, I'll clean it before bringing anyone else for a drive. Surely I should be able to expect the same from a professional driver?)

Professional driver. not professional cleaner. Would you expect an airline pilot to go around the plane and pick up rubbish?


If somebody left junk behind in my car I'd get them to pick it up and they would most likely not be getting back in to it anytime soon.

luckat wrote:

There's a certain lack of pride in the job and responsibility to the passengers. Not in everyone - not even in *most* drivers. But it's there as an undercurrent, and to my mind it's a sign of a sick company, and a company that doesn't believe itself answerable to its customers, its employers or its staff.

Considering how poor the conditions the company operates in are it is a miracle that they are not far worse in every aspect. There is no clear direction for the company, on one hand they are pressured to maximise profits while at the same time they are criticised and challenged by self-serving politicians for cutting back on un profitable routes.

All of the "why can't they be as good as <insert European city> operators" posts particularly from the ridiculously biased Metrobest fail completely to acknowledge that the environment in which they operate is completely different. In all these cities the bus services are an integrated part of the city, in Dublin they are treated by all the authorities as an inconvenient afterthought that grudgingly has to be allowed.

DCC ordered Dublin Bus to remove the feeds of the city's traffic cameras from their control rooms because they wanted them to pay to use them.

How many roads with regular bus routes on them have been fitted with full size speed ramps in the last 10 years? These destroy the buses that have to negotiate hundreds of them every day and give a very uncomfortable ride to passengers. A bus-friendly design is available but rarely used in Dublin.

How many other cities the size of Dublin that rely as heavily on buses for public transport can anyone name that do not have one proper bus station for city services? Of course buses on layover litter the city streets, there is nowhere else for them to go.

luckat

John R, I've been in places where the bus drivers, in *crisp*, super-cleaned, super-smart uniforms and white gloves, consider it a matter of honour that their bus should be perfectly clean - and that they should clean it themselves. The result is that the customers don't drop stuff and scrawl on those buses.

(Many studies have shown that people don't soil pristine places - for instance, an already vandalised phone kiosk, in the days when people relied on them, was sure to be really smashed up, whereas a kiosk that was immediately put right after one bit of graffiti or one dropped cigarette butt would not be further vandalised.)

You're quite right, there should be a big bus station - but for some reason the idea of building a multi-storey underground bus station hasn't occurred to anyone in Dublin Bus.

At one stage they'd bought up most of Temple Bar and intended to make it one giant bus park!

The idea of Eden Quay, for instance, being effectively a bus park is ludicrous. But then if we get talking about parking in this city, somebody's going to mention the vast car park taking up the street outside Pearse Street Garda Station...

Metrobest

John R wrote:

All of the "why can't they be as good as <insert European city> operators" posts particularly from the ridiculously biased Metrobest fail completely to acknowledge that the environment in which they operate is completely different. In all these cities the bus services are an integrated part of the city, in Dublin they are treated by all the authorities as an inconvenient afterthought that grudgingly has to be allowed.

How many other cities the size of Dublin that rely as heavily on buses for public transport can anyone name that do not have one proper bus station for city services? Of course buses on layover litter the city streets, there is nowhere else for them to go.

You do have a point about the nature of Dublin's street layout - but why haven't Dublin Bus devised new routes that avoid congestion sorespots, lobbied for bus priority-controlled junctions and introduced real-time passenger information to keep passengers be kept in the know? Let's lay the blame where it should rest: with management.

And there is simply no excuse for parked buses clogging up city streets. I don't believe Dublin Bus has put any real imagination into resolving this issue. A solution for many routes, for example the 46A, would be to abolish current unreliable "bus departs at X time" for a luas-style frequency system based on demand. Inbound buses would do a loop around Parnell Square or Merrion Square and seamlessly become outbound buses, which would eliminate layovers on city streets and increase operating revenue (idle buses don't make money). Take away the on-street car parking from these two Squares and you have the bones of two very impressive city bus termini.

John R

luckat wrote:

John R, I've been in places where the bus drivers, in *crisp*, super-cleaned, super-smart uniforms and white gloves, consider it a matter of honour that their bus should be perfectly clean - and that they should clean it themselves. The result is that the customers don't drop stuff and scrawl on those buses.

LMFAO.

Not In Treland.

luckat wrote:

(Many studies have shown that people don't soil pristine places - for instance, an already vandalised phone kiosk, in the days when people relied on them, was sure to be really smashed up, whereas a kiosk that was immediately put right after one bit of graffiti or one dropped cigarette butt would not be further vandalised.)

That is contradictory. The phonebox was vandalised. At some stage previously it had been pristine but it WAS vandalised anyway. What that proves is that if huge resources are spent on cleaning up and repairing as soon as then people like yourself never get to see the vandalism so therefore there must not be any.

A few years ago London Underground brought in a policy that trains would not be put in service with graffiti on board. Now every single depot has teams that use industrial cleaning equipment to rid the trains of graffiti every night yet by the end of the day the very same trains are back requiring the same treatment.

For nearly 20 years from new the Dart carriages remained in good condition, Irish Rail made sure that they were free of graffiti, in the last few years though the amount of damage has escalated and some is just not possible to repair. Most of the original dart carriages have broken window seals and scratched windows.

Unfortunately glass cannot be cleaned so now practically every window on their trains have been scratched and a good proportion of buses in London are so scratched that it is impossible to se out of them properly.

These, along with casual litering are social problems, expecting transport companies to somehow single-handedly stem the tide of anti-social behavior while the rest of society shrugs it's shoulders is unrealistic in the extreme.

Every bus in the Dublin Bus fleet is cleaned nightly, the fact that the people of Dublin are such selfish disgusting scumbags to the extent that after one rush hour journey the bus is awash with junk is unfortunate but that's modern Ireland for you.

Can I ask you what you do when you see someone throw stuff on the floor or leave rubbish behind?

luckat wrote:

You're quite right, there should be a big bus station - but for some reason the idea of building a multi-storey underground bus station hasn't occurred to anyone in Dublin Bus.

I'm sure it has occoured to some of them but seing as they can't buy a bus without government permission building an undergroud bus station in the centre of the city on someone else's land is somewhat outside their remit. Plans for a privately-funded station on Strand street are in the works but that will only be good for half a dozen routes at the most. This is the last significant piece of City Centre land owned by CIE.

luckat wrote:

At one stage they'd bought up most of Temple Bar and intended to make it one giant bus park!

They (CIE as it was long before Dublin Bus was formed) hadn't bought it up, they had inherited it along with huge amounts of property all across the city and country as part of one of the once private companies that became CIE.

At one stage whe Temple Bar was just another area of urban decay they had planned to build a large Bus station (not a bus park) for city and national services but the government of CJ quashed that plan. If it had been built we would now have a much better bus service in the city and Bus Eireann would not be stuck with the dangerously overcrowded mess that is Busarus.

luckat wrote:

The idea of Eden Quay, for instance, being effectively a bus park is ludicrous.

Maybe it seems that way but it is the best place for them to be as far as efficiency goes. Outside of peak times not all the fleet is required to be in service, leaving the buses in the city rather than driving empty back to the garages saves considerable amount of driving time (and fuel) so that more of the drivers time is spent in service.

The difference between Dublin and better developed cities is that this is done on various city streets rather than in the parking area of a bus station.

The amount of street space taken up with parked buses is tiny in comparison to the amount of on-street car parking spaces in Dublin. Get rid of the latter and there might even be enough usage of off-peak buses to justify using more of the fleet all day.

John R

Metrobest wrote:

You do have a point about the nature of Dublin's street layout - but why haven't Dublin Bus devised new routes that avoid congestion sorespots

How long is it since you have been in the city? most of it is a congestion sorespot.
In the few areas where buses can get free movement through they have diverted and introduced new services to use these routes.

Metrobest wrote:

lobbied for bus priority-controlled junctions

I am sure they have lobbied for them but remember they are a state organisation with political appointees at the top so publicly berating the government is not done.

There are some bus priority junctions and have been for several years, a number of them are in areas where they are hardly needed in the first place. The various councils have not gone near any major junctions with bus priority measures however so there is not a huge benefit from the total of them.

Metrobest wrote:

introduced real-time passenger information to keep passengers be kept in the know?

Dublin Bus piloted real-time information about 5-6 years ago on sections of the 25/26/66/67 and 78a/51 routes but so far funding has not been released/authorisation not given for any further roll-out. By the end of next year the whole fleet will be installed with all the equipment needed for very accurate real-time positioning but just like the integrated smartcard the project is in government department limbo awaiting god knows what.

Metrobest wrote:

Let's lay the blame where it should rest: with management.

Fine, but management of what? Since it's inception the whole country has consistently been run by a bunch of pig-ignorant, incompetent and corrupt cretins. The main qualification that these people have is that their daddies used to do it or they know people at the local GAA. There is lots of bad management in the CIE companies, both now and in the past but they all pale into insignificance when compared to those higher up. The political leaders, senior civil service and the legal profession in this country have only one priority; their own self-interest.

Metrobest wrote:

And there is simply no excuse for parked buses clogging up city streets. I don't believe Dublin Bus has put any real imagination into resolving this issue. A solution for many routes, for example the 46A, would be to abolish current unreliable "bus departs at X time" for a luas-style frequency system based on demand.

They may not publish them but there is not a transport system anywhere that does not run off timetables and that includes Luas. It is just not possible to run on demand in the literal sense. Staff rotas need to be worked out and adhered to in order to keep drivers hours within regulations and buses need to be available at the right time at changeover locations.

Non-specific timetables are becoming more popular with operators in the main because it lets them off the hook easier. If a timetable is published as "about every 10-15mns" and there is a 20 minute gap the operator has not really failed to meet their commitment, just pushed the definition of "about".

For example the 46a route is a rotten one to make your point with, it turns and waits for time in Summerhill bus garage off Mountjoy Square, driver breaks are taken at the inner termonus in DunLaoghaire and changeovers are done in service outside the garage in Donnybrook.

Metrobest wrote:

Inbound buses would do a loop around Parnell Square or Merrion Square and seamlessly become outbound buses, which would eliminate layovers on city streets and increase operating revenue (idle buses don't make money).

If making sure the buses don't stay for any length in the city centre is the goal then yes that would work but the negative effects it would have on the service would be severe.

If every bus on a route was to go non-stop through the city then you would effectively be doubling the route length. The longer the route is the more bunching and gapping that occours.

Bunching is just a fact of bus operation, for any number of reasons that cannot be eliminated (catching a series of traffic lights, stuck behind a cyclist, disabled or infirm passenger taking time to board, etc) the gaps between buses vary. On a heavily used route one or two minutes delay is all that is needed for one bus to get a significantly heavier than normal loading through the whole route. The effect is that the bus goes slower for the whole route and the opposite effect happens to the bus following so it gets light loads and catches up quickly. If a route is long enough this can cascade so that 3 or 4 buses end up in a convoy with big gaps in front and behind.

The cross-city routes in Dublin already effectively do what you are suggesting and they are always the most unreliable for timings from the city centre, even when they are departing the terminus on time.

It also doesn't decrease the amount of time the buses and drivers spend idle. The amount of time needed at the outer terminus to cope with a slow running bus has to be at least doubled to take account of the likelihood of a bus running slow for the whole return trip. The same amount of recovery time is needed, it is just taken at one location not split between two.

Regulating the service in the city centre is the best option because it provides the most reliable headways at the most popular pick-up location.

Metrobest wrote:

Take away the on-street car parking from these two Squares and you have the bones of two very impressive city bus termini.

No arguement with that, there are a number of areas in the city that by removing car access could be turned into decent bus termini with proper facilities for passengers.

luckat

The psychology of vandalism is well known: if you consistently take away any sign of vandalism, the rate of vandalism drops away.

No, the crisply-dressed and job-proud bus drivers I met were not in Ireland, unfortunately. The snobbery that is currently the Irish worldview means that a bus driver isn't generally proud of his job.

Temple Bar wasn't just rescued by the Haughey government; it was rescued by the strange idea Dubliners had that a charming area of historic value was worth preserving, and would not make an ideal bus station.