Garda Reserve Force

daisydawn

hi all im just wondering about the garda reserve force that the minister is keen to introduce. basically it will involve getting members of the public trained so they can do the basic garda duties or something like that. to be honest im not too sure. just wondering when this is supposed to be introduced. will it involve duties all over ireland and what do fully trained guards think of this?? any opinions would be great.

Trotter

I think its a great idea. There would be plenty of competent people around that could assist fulltime Gardai in their duties. For example.. 3 experienced Gardai walking around town at christmas in order that the public could see there was a Garda presence.

Replace that with 3 teams of 2, One fulltime and one reserve. If anything major kicks off, call in the other 2 teams. Seems logical to me!

mcguiver

Nice in theory, in practice a flop in the UK.
Without full training court evidence isn't taken as being from an expert policeman/woman.
Who pays your wages/hospital fees etc. when you get injured/maimed on duty?
Can you afford to be in court buildings all day or for days when one of your cases come up?

Only place I've seen it work is Channell islands, where it's more traffic warden/ litter warden type scenario.

FGR

Considering the number of people wanting to join the fulltime service I'm pretty sure there will be a large number of those wanting Reserve experience as a 'ticket' into the fulltime...Regardless of ridiculous hours put in.

Bam Bam

Its only ment to be 900 strong. Fulltime guards are against it.


edit: should this not be in Volunteerism.

deisemum

It would depend on what duties are expected of them, sounds more like one of the Police Academy films

daisydawn

Bam Bam wrote:

Fulltime guards are against it.
QUOTE]
Why are full time guards against it? surely it is in their best interests that they will have extra people helping out and taking care of the jobs that they may not want to do?

Borzoi

daisydawn wrote:

Why are full time guards against it? surely it is in their best interests that they will have extra people helping out and taking care of the jobs that they may not want to do?

If I was cynical I'd say because it will put a stop to a lot of Garda overtime, as the reserves would be used heavily for stewarding major events etc.

DublinWriter

daisydawn wrote:

any opinions would be great.

Great idea, but as usual in this country, disasterous implementation.

The biggest problem is that the reservest will be *unpaid*, so take your own guess on the motivations of the people who will join up.

As for a lack of training regarding presenting evidence in court etc, I think the reservests will be given the 'scrag end' of garda duties - static guard, point, prisoner escort, etc, etc, so they'll end up being little more than unpaid security guards with the power of arrest.

This really should be a paid function. Police reservests are used and paid in almost every country in the world.

But as usual, it's 'do it on the cheap' time during one of our most prosperous eras of history.

People never appreciate what they get for free anyways.

the_syco

daisydawn wrote:

Why are full time guards against it?

DublinWriter wrote:

The biggest problem is that the reservest will be *unpaid*, so take your own guess on the motivations of the people who will join up.

Aye. The people who want power, esp those little annoying prats who think they know everything... will now be able to arrest you.

Bam Bam

The Fulltime gardai are against it because of

A) The ridiculously short period of training time

These reservists may become a target for local gangs

Here's a link to a similar thread

http://www.irishmilitaryonline.com/board/showthread.php?t=161&page=6&pp=25&highlight=garda+reserve

daisydawn

Bam Bam wrote:

The Fulltime gardai are against it because of

These reservists may become a target for local gangs


hi BamBam thanks for reply. how do you know that these people may become a target. from who??
are you a member of an Garda Siochana yourself.
i tried that link you recommended but could not get any information from it.

snakeater

I'm training to be a guard at the moment. The main problem I can see is that there is an awful lot of law that a Garda has to know. I think the general public underestimate the legal knowledge required to be a Garda. We have reams and reams of books, laws, criminal acts and defintitions to learn off. Making an unlawful arrest is a serious offence and can result in lawsuits against the force. Also Gardai gain alot of their knowledge and skill from experience on the streets. I can't see how these reservists could gain enough experience form just performing duties the odd time. Not to mention what McGuiver said earlier on..we have a medical aid society thats deducted from our wages that covers us if god forbid we are assaulted or maimed or or stabbed with a syringe, all of which are on the increase. Who covers them for that? Anyway having the power to arrest someone is a HUGE responsibility, you will be accountible in court for your actions, so a thorough knowledge of all arrestible offences is a neccessity. Even forgetting to caution someone when taking a statement can have evidence thrown out in court. I can't see how any shortcuts can be taken when it comes to teaching them the law. In my opinion it would be more feasible if they could be used in the traffic corps during operation free flow or during major public events etc. and don't give them the powers of arrest.

Bam Bam

daisydawn wrote:

Bam Bam wrote:

The Fulltime gardai are against it because of

These reservists may become a target for local gangs


hi BamBam thanks for reply. how do you know that these people may become a target. from who??
are you a member of an Garda Siochana yourself.
i tried that link you recommended but could not get any information from it.

You may have to log onto the site to view that page.
I am not a garda.

seamus

snakeater wrote:

I can't see how any shortcuts can be taken when it comes to teaching them the law.

They couldn't. The impression I get is that they are intended to be used for the mundane stuff - crowd control, public order, traffic control, etc etc. The kind of "arrests" they could carry out would probably be somewhat similar to a citizen's arrest - declare your arrest, restrain the person if necessary and then summon an actual Garda to make a formal arrest.

It would certainly make a lot of sense in terms of cutting the overtime bill and freeing up more Gardai for street work. For example, you have crowd control at a football match. At the moment that's probably covered by 4-6 Gardai. Instead use 1 Garda (for arrests) and 10 reservists and suddenly you have 3-5 Gardai freed up for street work and/or not being paid overtime for doing monkey work.

Of course, it's all a bit of a mess. By their very definition, the Gardai are maintainers of public order, which would also imply that crowd control and big events are their domain. I reckon instead of announcing minor changes to the force (traffic corps/reservists), the minister(s) should formulate a ten-year plan to redefine and improve the Gardai into a modern policing force, and then gradually act on that.

As others say, I would be also quite concerned at the fact that they're not being paid. While you will get a few concerned citizens who'll do it for nothing, the bulk of the rest will be looking for something to gain from it.

Our man in Havana

The sorts of people that will join for nowt?

Concerned citizens public spirited

---

Good
Little Hitlers

---

Bad
Walter Mitty fantasy types

---

Dangerous to society

Eru

seamus wrote:

They couldn't. The impression I get is that they are intended to be used for the mundane stuff - crowd control, public order, traffic control, etc etc. The kind of "arrests" they could carry out would probably be somewhat similar to a citizen's arrest - declare your arrest, restrain the person if necessary and then summon an actual Garda to make a formal arrest.

You see thats problem 1. Public order doesnt fall under citizens arrest powers and 2. if you will limit them then they arent really worth a damn too begin with are they? I mean, its all well and good saying they will only deal with certain offences but gosd only knows what a Garda is going to come across or be dispatched to during a saturday night, a suspicious person in a laneway might be taking a leak but he could also be raping a woman or breaking into a bank.

Borzoi wrote:

If I was cynical I'd say because it will put a stop to a lot of Garda overtime, as the reserves would be used heavily for stewarding major events etc.

Major events will still require full time Gardai and they will primarily be used on Friday and saturday night. Besides that, this myth about Garda overtime is exactly that. 77 million last year only equals 6500 per Garda. Now thats hardly a fortune and how much of that is for court? At least half. the reserves wont be going to court on my behalf.

Actually, in relation to court. The reserve will have to attend court too give evidence as they arrested the person, they are 'members of An Garda Siochana' with Garda powers. Security guards can only perform citizens arrest and even then they still have to go too court on a regular basis. Again, whos going to pay for this? Their fulltime boss? Im sure they will be only too happy too pay someone for missing work and going to cdourt.

oceallachain

Karlitosway1978 wrote:

Actually, in relation to court. The reserve will have to attend court too give evidence as they arrested the person, they are 'members of An Garda Siochana' with Garda powers.

Are they really going to be officially members of an garda siochana? Will they get a badge? I don't really see why they should get a badge if they are only gong to have powers whilst on duty?

blueshirt

I don’t like the idea of a reserve police force ( B specials too recent for comfort) its not really part of the Irish way of doing things. But, the government (that we elected) have decided that we should have one, and that’s that. The police force do not run this country, the elected government do that.

Eru

oceallachain wrote:

Are they really going to be officially members of an garda siochana? Will they get a badge? I don't really see why they should get a badge if they are only gong to have powers whilst on duty?

Yes they will have uniforms, badges and full powers while on duty. the difference will be I will be senior officer when at calls but their powers will equal my own.

Its unclear if their badges and uniforms will be altered to show they are reserves. Its a must on the badges in my opinion but I would not be a big fan of altering the uniform, I might be lukewarm on the idea but I dont want to make them into targets.

Ultimately they will come in and we will work with them because A, we are a disciplined quasi-military force that follow orders and the Minister and commiss will order us to. B, we might not like the idea but we are not going to allow them too be attacked and hurt anymore than we would for Joe Soap and C, You have to watch your colleagues backs regardless of personal feelings against them.

deputydugs

Karlitosway1978 wrote:

Yes they will have uniforms, badges and full powers while on duty. the difference will be I will be senior officer when at calls but their powers will equal my own.

Its unclear if their badges and uniforms will be altered to show they are reserves. Its a must on the badges in my opinion but I would not be a big fan of altering the uniform, I might be lukewarm on the idea but I dont want to make them into targets.

Ultimately they will come in and we will work with them because A, we are a disciplined quasi-military force that follow orders and the Minister and commiss will order us to. B, we might not like the idea but we are not going to allow them too be attacked and hurt anymore than we would for Joe Soap and C, You have to watch your colleagues backs regardless of personal feelings against them.

Are you sure about that badge thing?

I understand they would have to have an Id while on duty right! but not a badge. I would have thought an ID card of some type like the age card.

Afterall the only reason we have badges is to show proof of our job when off duty incase something happens and we make an arrest, The reserve will have NO POWERS OFF DUTY, While serving members DO

amen

The reserve will have NO POWERS OFF DUTY, While serving members DO

Technically a Garda is never off duty. You are a Garda 24 hours a day 365 days a week.

testicle

That's one hell of a long week!

Bam Bam

they're well compensated for it.

Eru

Bam Bam wrote:

they're well compensated for it.

Explain.


Deputy,
As far as I know they will have badges but I suppose its subject to change or altering like evrything.

You been to a GRA meeting yet? The DMR one is coming up soon.

DublinWriter

amen wrote:

Technically a Garda is never off duty. You are a Garda 24 hours a day 365 days a week.

Arse. You obviously didn't hear the recent court case about the garda detective in Cork City parking up illegally in someone's spot, claiming he spotted a suspect and was in persuit.

The guard got into a row with the owner of the space, as she had 'stickered' him and two uniformed members had to be called to the scene.

The upshot of the case was that he was found guilty as he wasn't on duty.

gurramok

Can the new reserve force discriminate against people with the 'wrong' address like myself who would love to see teams of gardai hanging around?

At the moment, they mostly venture around using that thing called a chopper

Basically my question is, whats the vetting like?
If I were to sign up, would I be subject to extra scrutiny than lets say a recruit from Foxrock ?

vector

what will the ideal candidate be?
are they looking for a 25 year old male with perfect eyesight
OR
a 55 year old female with acceptable eyesight

People say it'll be unpaid which would sem to suit the latter example
I'm sure many of the former will wish to join but without the novelty value of weapons enjoyed in the RDF what is the attraction

vasch_ro

Karlitosway1978 wrote:

Explain.


Deputy,
As far as I know they will have badges but I suppose its subject to change or altering like evrything.

You been to a GRA meeting yet? The DMR one is coming up soon.

Don't think I will bother going , personally I am for the reserve . Besides with supers for it and Mc Dowell its inevitable, i would however like more info about it !

Eru

vasch_ro wrote:

Don't think I will bother going , personally I am for the reserve . Besides with supers for it and Mc Dowell its inevitable, i would however like more info about it !

Not many within the DMR are in favour but it seems to be more favourable in rural stations.

I dont see why theres a simple 'NO' either. A more straight forward and honest approach would have been to ask McDowell to rectify certain problems and clarify points instead of just shouting 'No!"

gurramok wrote:

Can the new reserve force discriminate against people with the 'wrong' address like myself who would love to see teams of gardai hanging around?

Vetting as per the fulltimes is the same regardless of area, ethnic grouping, etc. Your the one that appears to have a chip on the shoulder because of location. And theres no such thing as a no go area for Gardai.

vector wrote:

what will the ideal candidate be?
are they looking for a 25 year old male with perfect eyesight
OR
a 55 year old female with acceptable eyesight

No one seems to know but I would say a mix of both. They would probable like the older people for duties at concerts, etc that happen during the week but the younger people for weekend, public order duties.

As for the appeal, the FCA its guns. the Garda reserve its the badge and power which the FCA does not have. Thats a large part of our concern.

Dublinwriter,
We have our full powers of detention and arrest 24/7/365. We are advised to be careful when performing a Garda duty while off duty however and should limit it too unavoidable situations where action was needed such as a bad assault taking place, etc.

DublinWriter

Karlitosway1978 wrote:

We have our full powers of detention and arrest 24/7/365. We are advised to be careful when performing a Garda duty while off duty however and should limit it too unavoidable situations where action was needed such as a bad assault taking place, etc.

All things being equal, on the whole, the reservists are a good idea, especially for static guard duty.

However, all things are not equal. What if the reservist witnesses a serious assult while doing one of the 'routine' tasks? Will he/she have the power of arrest? Will he/she be up for false imprisonment if he/she attempts to detain someone? What if he/she prevents someone who is clearly intoxicated from getting into a car and driving away?

Considering the various legal loopholes and legal gymnastics most S.C.'s pull off on getting their clients out of S.49 RTA charges, the average reservist wouldn't stand a snowballs chance in hell in court.

The existing force needs to be properly resourced better. There isn't sufficient rollout of Tetra, no stab vests, members in Port Laois are using taxis to travel to crime scenes, and that's just what's publicly reported.

The answer is starting McDowell in the face:

There still is a 'barracks' mentally which needs to be addressed. More non-operational posts within AGS need to be civilianised (as the PSNI and other UK county constabularies) by Civil Service with C.O.s replacing Garda ranks and H.E.O.s replacing Sergeant ranks. This is not the 1950's anymore.

deputydugs

amen wrote:

Technically a Garda is never off duty. You are a Garda 24 hours a day 365 days a week.

THE RESERVE FOR A FACT WILL HAVE NO POWERS WHILE OFF DUTY:mad: , and if and when they say they do it is complete bull ****e. They will be a reserve garda and not a full garda so they DO GO off duty.

deputydugs

Karlitosway1978 wrote:

Explain.


Deputy,
As far as I know they will have badges but I suppose its subject to change or altering like evrything.

You been to a GRA meeting yet? The DMR one is coming up soon.

Ya was at the cork one.

deputydugs

DublinWriter wrote:

All things being equal, on the whole, the reservists are a good idea, especially for static guard duty.

However, all things are not equal. What if the reservist witnesses a serious assult while doing one of the 'routine' tasks? Will he/she have the power of arrest? Will he/she be up for false imprisonment if he/she attempts to detain someone? What if he/she prevents someone who is clearly intoxicated from getting into a car and driving away?

Considering the various legal loopholes and legal gymnastics most S.C.'s pull off on getting their clients out of S.49 RTA charges, the average reservist wouldn't stand a snowballs chance in hell in court.

The existing force needs to be properly resourced better. There isn't sufficient rollout of Tetra, no stab vests, members in Port Laois are using taxis to travel to crime scenes, and that's just what's publicly reported.

The answer is starting McDowell in the face:

There still is a 'barracks' mentally which needs to be addressed. More non-operational posts within AGS need to be civilianised (as the PSNI and other UK county constabularies) by Civil Service with C.O.s replacing Garda ranks and H.E.O.s replacing Sergeant ranks. This is not the 1950's anymore.

You are grasping at straws to make an argumnet, and only seem to know what is published in the media. Which if I do say so myself is crap as it always wants us to look bad and make a story for itself. Now why dont ya give us some information thats not in the paper. so we can see how reliable your opinion is on the reserve.