Can a person change?

Blisterman

I was just wondering what people thought about Stanley "Tookie" Williams. He founded the Crip Gang in LA, and is due to be executed on December 13, for the murders of 4 people in 1979. Since being put on death row, he has denounced violence and written numerous books for kids, warning them on the dangers of gangs. He has been nominated for a Nobel Peace Prize.
There's a big campaign to get his death sentence overturned. He has a clemency hearing on dec 8.
I'm not asking what you think of the death penatly, I'm asking if you think that a person can change, or whether you think, once a criminal, always a criminal.

sideFX

Yep you can change imho

Royale with Cheese

I think that he was given a sentence that the judge felt was appropriate for the crimes he committed. Regardless of what he has done, or whether the death penalty is right or not... this is the punishment for the crimes he committed and I don't think it should be overturned because of what he has done since being in jail.

I do think a person can change however, but it's not likely.

Laguna

Leopards don't change their spots.

Kingp35

Yes most certainly a person can change but in respect to the case in the original post the guy was given the sentence according to the crime he commied. He could be a saint since then and be nicest guy the world has ever seen but it does not change the fact that he commited that cime and therefor deserves to serve the original sentence. the people lobbying for a reduced sentence dont have a clue wha they are on about.

Its like if a prist who has served he church his whole life and has helped countless people suddenly commts a murder should he be treated differently because of the good he has done. No he shouldnt.

That guy did the crime and deserves to pay the price no matter what he has done since

seamus

People do change. All the time. Rarely though do people change into the complete opposite of what they are, nor do they often change into what society wants for them.

I'm not intending to make this a death penalty rant, but this does show up the one major flaw of the death penalty - it assumes that a person can commit a crime so heinous that they are unable to change or make a contribution after commiting it.

Certainly I think it's unfair to base the measure of a person on their personality/acts when they were teens/early twenties.

Tar.Aldarion

People change all the time, wait this is already written for me;

People do change. All the time. Rarely though do people change into the complete opposite of what they are, nor do they often change into what society wants for them.

However in some cases they do change a lot.
In this case, he w ounished for the crimes not for who he was or is so it should stand.
That said, I'm against capital punishment so i don't believe he should have gotten the death penalty in the first place.

scojones

Right, I'm against the death penalty.... but

He should be punished for what he did. Whether he changes or not is a totally different matter. Fact is, he killed four people. He should be punished for killing those for people, and his punishment should not be lowered because he shows remorse. But, killing him will do no good. Making him live with what he did would be better.

Now don't get me wrong here, people can change, but sometimes it's too late, which is the way it is in this case. Four people are in the ground because of him, four people's families destroyed. Since I'm against the death penalty, I think he should serve life in prison for what he did.

Rb

Yeah, people can change IMO.

Regarding Williams, I think he should be granted clemency. he's done a lot of good from behind his prison bars and it'd be a shame to put to death someone like that.
Check out www.savetookie.com

billy the squid

Dr J wrote:

I think that he was given a sentence that the judge felt was appropriate for the crimes he committed. Regardless of what he has done, or whether the death penalty is right or not... this is the punishment for the crimes he committed and I don't think it should be overturned because of what he has done since being in jail.

I do think a person can change however, but it's not likely.

Jesus Christ received a death sentence, which a judge felt was appropriate, do you think he deserved it though?

Mr.Nice Guy

billy the squid wrote:

Jesus Christ received a death sentence, which a judge felt was appropriate, do you think he deserved it though?

Jesus didn't murder four people though.

Rb

Mr.Nice Guy wrote:

Jesus didn't murder four people though.

How do you know that?

Royale with Cheese

billy the squid wrote:

Jesus Christ received a death sentence, which a judge felt was appropriate, do you think he deserved it though?

Seriously you're bringing Jesus into this?

Mr.Nice Guy

rb_ie wrote:

How do you know that?

Um, because we know he existed and there's no record of that?

Rb

Dr J wrote:

Seriously you're bringing Jesus into this?

Now its only a matter of time before something nazi related is mentioned.

Rb

Mr.Nice Guy wrote:

Um, because we know he existed and there's no record of that?

Maybe he just wasn't caught?

slipss

well it all comes down to wether you believe the law is there to try and punish people(which accomplishes nothing) or reform them(which barely ever works). On a completely personal level I don't think he should be put to death, but I'd understand if he was, ehh yeah.

slipss

ohh yeah and i'd just like to metion something nazi related.

Rb

Black man accused of killing four people, being tried by white people and infront of a jury of white people (the three african americans were removed - see www.savetookie.org) in 1981, of course he was going to get sentenced to death.

MrJoeSoap

People can change, but should still serve the punishment allocated to the crime(s) they have commited.

American History X is a great example (despite it being fictional) of people changing.

Mr.Nice Guy

rb_ie wrote:

Maybe he just wasn't caught?

You could say that about anybody to be honest.:rolleyes:

Kernel

I believe people can change and be rehabilitated. That doesn't mean that everyone does, but punishment can give someone a chance to look inside themselves and learn about themselves and the error of their ways.

Sticking scumbags in cells with cable tv, 5 star meals and all the amenities and drugs they could ever desire (better than their lives on the outside in many instances), or giving them laughably short sentances will not rehabilitate anyone.

Tough justice is the way, and the judiciary in this country isn't effective enough in that regard - the victim gets punished more than the offender.

Blisterman

Well he has spent nearly 25 years in prison. Is that not punishment enough?

Rb

Blisterman wrote:

Well he has spent nearly 25 years in prison. Is that not punishment enough?

IMO it is and look how much good he's done while in there, imagine what he could do if eventually he was freed.

Canis Lupus

I had trouble coherently answering the question. Also reckon to answer the question that my opinion on the death penalty is inextricably linked to the answer I give. ANyway don't kill me if I'm not making sense below.

He did the crime but when you have a punishment as severe as death I believe I'd give a person the benefit of the doubt if their actions showed them to be changed, I'm not saying I'd beleive they HAD changed and accordingly I still wouldn't let them out of prison but I'd be more than happy to not kill them.

Straying slightly away from the wanted response of the sender I also feel it's important to note that his crime is 26ish years old. I believe if there is a death sentence then kill a person quickly, not wait a quarter of a century before doing it. You really aren't killing the same person, your killing someone 26 years older. God knows I have in many ways radically changed from when I was say, 18. I'm only 24 now. 26 years is a looooong time.

WhiteWashMan

yes i think a person can change, but only if they want to.

AARRRGH

Blisterman wrote:

I'm not asking what you think of the death penatly, I'm asking if you think that a person can change, or whether you think, once a criminal, always a criminal.

Of course people can change. Somehow I doubt he was always a killer. So he can return back to being a normal person.

I fully believe in people changing. But I know it doesn't happen overnight.

I also believe in forgiveness.

Piste

People can, and do change. Leaving my own opinions on the Death penalty aside here, reducing this man's sentence or at least not killing him would ensure that a man who has shown that no matter how bad a crime is commited, a person can change will get to stay alive and keep doing the good he is doing.

patzer117

i'm going to be a bit of a devil's advocate here and say no people can't change. The tookie fella - everything he did, every last letter he wrote, he did to get off the death sentence. He didn't mean any of it, he didn't do it out of the good of his heart, he did it to try to save his own ass, and i'm surprised noone has said that.

Controversial, yeah, i know, but if he was let off, then if he didn't do this others would. Justice must be done and there can be no light way of getting out of it.

In my opinion people always change, but neveer change their principals. And with most people their first principal is 'look out for myself'. Put people in the same situation year in year out and they'll do what's in their best interests, always.
this may be a cynical attitude but i've yet to see a person prove me wrong.

patzer (ends being devil's advocate and awaits responses)

Tha Gopher

MrJoeSoap wrote:

American History X is a great example (despite it being fictional) of people changing.

American History X is a load of nonsense about a guy who appears to serve somewhere between 18-30 months in prison (judging by his brothers age before and after his release) for two of the most brutal murders ever seen in a film.

Sorry, went off on one there.....

tj-music.com

The only constant within the universe is change, yet we have big problems changing.

I do believe people can change although it has to be said that it is extremely hard to change habits and if someone is full of anger or violence, I dont think that the fact that he is in prison changes his thoughts and his view on thinks.

Maybe there is some enlightenment that came to him and he now sees things differently and really wants to change.

Rb

patzer117 wrote:

i'm going to be a bit of a devil's advocate here and say no people can't change. The tookie fella - everything he did, every last letter he wrote, he did to get off the death sentence. He didn't mean any of it, he didn't do it out of the good of his heart, he did it to try to save his own ass, and i'm surprised noone has said that.

Controversial, yeah, i know, but if he was let off, then if he didn't do this others would. Justice must be done and there can be no light way of getting out of it.

In my opinion people always change, but neveer change their principals. And with most people their first principal is 'look out for myself'. Put people in the same situation year in year out and they'll do what's in their best interests, always.
this may be a cynical attitude but i've yet to see a person prove me wrong.

patzer (ends being devil's advocate and awaits responses)

He's said he was innocent since the day he was incarcerated and also the reason he wants to get an executive clemency is so he can continue his fight to prove his innocence.
There was no evidence that placed him at the scene of the murders (a convenience store clerk, a motel clerk and his wife and daughter) and he faced an all white jury.
Try reading up on it before you try and pass judgement

Sleepy

I change slightly every week or so, so yeah, over 25 years I reckon you could change a hell of a lot. I mean, 25 years ago I wasn't even toilet trained

failsafe

I'd have to say yes, of course one can change. He wasn't born as a gang member, but he grew into that persona, and i think 25 years is enough time to grow out of it.

I think people who say "do the crime, do the time" should think for a sec about what the prison system is really for. What's the point in imprisoning someone for 3/4/5 years, then releasing them if you think they're not going to change!? Wouldn't rehabillitation be a much better goal to try acheive?

With this case in particular i think the arguements on both sides are a little fuzzy. I wouldn't believe the whole "complete innocence/racist jury" arguement for somebody who founded the crypts! On the other hand, patzer, 9 nobel prize nominations aren't exactly the tell tale signs of someone "pretending" to be nice.

Given time or a particular event (in this case a death penalty and 28 years), and I think anyone can change, and I think it would be an awful shame to kill somebody who seems to be doing some good for the world.

Wasn't it Jesus himself, after all, who went on about repentance and forgiveness...... or was it hitler?

jimmycrackcorm

Laguna wrote:

Leopards don't change their spots.

Perhaps if we trained them ...

Rb

failsafe wrote:

With this case in particular i think the arguements on both sides are a little fuzzy. I wouldn't believe the whole "complete innocence/racist jury" arguement for somebody who founded the crypts!

He himself has said that The Crips(not crypts, shows how much you know ) were founded in an attempt to "cleanse"(his own words) the neighbourhood of gang activity, but then itself turned into what they were trying to combat.
how ironic.

MrJoeSoap

Tha Gopher wrote:

American History X is a load of nonsense about a guy who appears to serve somewhere between 18-30 months in prison (judging by his brothers age before and after his release) for two of the most brutal murders ever seen in a film.

It happens! One of the murders was brutal, the other was your average, run-of-the-mill, everyday murder iirc.

He spent 3 years in jail btw, a bit far-fetched I know, but the overall message of the film made me suspend any doubts I had about it.

---

Going back to the OP, was this guy really nominated for a Nobel Peace Prize??? Surely murdering four people would be a slight little black mark on the copy book, no?

Rb

MrJoeSoap wrote:

Going back to the OP, was this guy really nominated for a Nobel Peace Prize??? Surely murdering four people would be a slight little black mark on the copy book, no?

He's been nominated for a Nobel Peace Prize a few times AFAIK, written childrens books, memoirs, he's currently working on a book that deals with female gangs "the forgotten gender", he's set up anti-violence campaigns, youth education stuff to discourage them from entering gangs and quite a bit more.
Oh and once again, theres no evidence he murdered anyone.

Royale with Cheese

rb_ie wrote:

He's been nominated for a Nobel Peace Prize a few times AFAIK, written childrens books, memoirs, he's currently working on a book that deals with female gangs "the forgotten gender", he's set up anti-violence campaigns, youth education stuff to discourage them from entering gangs and quite a bit more.
Oh and once again, theres no evidence he murdered anyone.

If there's no evidence he murdered anyone then why are people campaigning for a reduction in his sentence because of his actions whilst being in prison rather than the considerable doubt surrounding the crime he committed? This guy said he didn't do it? Wow, a criminal who denies the crime he committed. Never heard of that before. He said the Crips were founded to help control gang warfare but got out of hand... and you just believe him? Did you ever stop to think he just may be lying?

simu

No man ever steps in the same river twice, for it's not the same river and he's not the same man.

-Heraclitus

free chewbacca!

Tha Gopher

rb_ie wrote:

Oh and once again, theres no evidence he murdered anyone.

Yes, in the USA in the 1970s police didnt even have to go to the effort of planting evidence on a black guy. All that was needed was for a policeman to address the jury and say "Id be fairly sure he did it":rolleyes:

You honestly think there is not ONE piece of evidence? If there wasnt, he would have never been charged.

Sarky

What can change the nature of a man?

Bonus points for telling me the game and the correct answer.

biko

Yes, a person can change but a prison sentence is not only there to protect society from a criminal/murderer but also there as a deterrent, so as to have others think before spraying bullets down a crowded street.

For a majority of petty criminals prison is rather a school of criminality, to learn new tricks of the trade, and they come out and meet the same old crowd in the same old estate. Of course they are going to continue robbing cars and houses. It's a vicious circle that will end with heavy crime and murder.

In orderr to change a person you need to change their circumstances when they leave prison. Hopefully this will allow for them to stay on the straight and narrow.

Rb

Tha Gopher wrote:

Yes, in the USA in the 1970s police didnt even have to go to the effort of planting evidence on a black guy. All that was needed was for a policeman to address the jury and say "Id be fairly sure he did it":rolleyes:

You honestly think there is not ONE piece of evidence? If there wasnt, he would have never been charged.

Have a read through http://www.tookie.com/tookie_fact_sheet_10.18.05.pdf

Siogfinsceal

my uncle used to live in florida he was friends with a guy from work who no one else woul dtalk to and they even shared a house together turns out the guy was one of the leaders of the crip but my uncle didnt know what that meant so it didnt bother him. they got on great and no-one ever crossed my uncle cos they were too afraid of his mate!

Blisterman

Well, the verdict from the Clemency hearing is due soon. His execution is set for tuesday.
I hope they at least spare him from being executed for a few years. He's done so much good work so far.