Yet another Central heating question!

Calibos

Yet another Central heating question!

Right, heres the thing lads.

Years ago got a back oiler removed and a gas fire fitted. The back boiler pipes were cut and capped and boxed in down the side of the chimney breast. We have since replaced the gas fire with a normal solid fuel hearth (or whatwever its called) and have also removed the box around those defunct back boiler pipes to equalise the alcoves on both sides of the fireplace/chimney breast. We have a plasterer coming to replaster the sitting room and wanted to remove those defunct back boiler pipes.

So being a naive soul I though all I had to do was turn off every water valve in the house and the gas central heating, undo the caps, cut the pipes within the ceiling void and re fit the caps.

Well I unscrewed one of the end caps and holy jesus there was black water gushing out. Eventually got the cap back on. Luckily we had a large plastic bin under the pipe while we did this or the floor would have been destroyed!

Anyway followed these defunct back boiler pipes back and the one I was working on as far as I can tell has numerous pipes connected to it along the way but eventually goes past the emersion where there is a T juntion off it into the emersion about 2/3 the way up (but no valve) and on up to the (gas) central heating pump in the hot press. Followed the pipe out the other side of the pump up into the attic. There it meets a T junction. One end goes up to empty into a small tank mounted over the main water tank. The other side of the T goes off and down to the actual gas central heating boiler which is mounted in the bathroom. I assume I have an open/gravity system.

The other defunct pipe that I didn't work on goes to the bottom of the emmersion through a valve that I hadn't noticed and thus turned off (luckily I hadn't started working on that pipe!). On a side note I turned the valve after finding it and the bloody thing started leaking. Think I turned that valve back to its original position but it kept leaking. Eventually realised that the nut under the valve had obviously turned a bit with the stiff valve. Tightened it and the leak stopped.

Also found a red plastic cap/valve? on a pipe going into the gas boiler. Turned it a bit and water started pouring out of a pipe from the eaves down into the back garden. (this overflow pipe coming from the back boiler I think. Released pressure on this red cap and the water stopped pouring out the back garden but the red cap is rotated in a different position. Has the flimsy red plastic cap just rotated or have I left some valve open?

Anyway turned water and heating back on and after some tank filling in the attic no sounds out of the ordinary. All radiators are piping hot now.


So................:D

A. Have I done any damage, does my open/gravity gas central heating system have to be bled, or re-pressurised refilled etc etc

B. How the hell do I stop water going to those defunct back boiler pipes so I can cut them out of the sitting room and recap them.

BTW I called several 'Emergency 24/7 365days' plumbers and was told.....wait for it.....at least a week!!

Calibos

One other thing, I didn't turn off any radiator valves during all this. Could all this water gushing out of the pipe when I removed the end cap of the defunct back boiler pipe have been merely the contents of the pipe and/or the contents of the radiators which I think may be connected to this pipe along the way at various points.

ie. was my problem that I didn't close the radiator valves to stop water draining back out of them along this pipe or that I simply panicked when water started gushing out of the defunct pipe when I removed the end cap but if I had left the cap off (and not rushed to screw the cap back on) that the flow would have eventually stopped when the pipe drained.

If that was the case and the water did drain out of the defunct pipes and I cut and recapped them would the piping /boiler system etc have refilled itself when I'd turn the water back on?

JamesM

All systems are different, so I cannot be certain, but:
The "small tank mounted over the main water tank." is the source of the water supply for the heating system. If you tie up the ballcock in it, then no water should fill into the system and the water would eventually stop coming out of the pipe you have opened. When you untie the ballcock the system should refill. Turn off the rads and any valves in the system and that will cut down on the amount of water lost from the system - also on the ammount that will have to drain out before you can cut the pipes. The pipe going "into the bottom of the immersion" should also continue up to the header tank. That is the source of the water supply.
The red plastic cap is the safety valve - just make sure that it is seated properly it is on a spring - it blows if the pressure in the system goes too high. Turning it will also let water out. If you keep turning it in the same direction it will squirt out water then click back down into position and shut off.
You most likely have not caused any damage and the system has refilled from the header tank in the attic.
Jim.

Calibos

Thanks for your help James.

Yes the pipe (with a valve at the immersion) that goes into the bottom of the immersion also continues up into the attic but not to the header tank but over to the bathroom area in the attic and down into the boiler. The other pipe which connects to the immersion about 2/3 the way up but without a valve continues through the pump up to the attic (this pump actually pumps downwards as our boiler is upstairs) where it has one T junstion that connects the overflow pipe which runs up to the apex of the roof and curves around back down to empty into the header. A little bit further along the pipe in question is another T junction which is what the feed from the header tank connects to.

ie. the pipe that gushed goes to the hotpress, a valveless T junction connects this to the immersion about 2/3 up, rest of pipe continues through upside down pump into attic, next T it meats connects the header feed and next T after that connects overflow back into header and the pipe goes off on its way to the boiler after these.

So the immersion isn't getting a feed at the bottom from the header, the boiler is getting a feed from the header. the immersion is getting a feed at the bottom from the boiler.


So if I tie up the ball cock and close all the rads, the only water I lose is the water in the pipes above the defunct pipe in the system? I would also loose the water in the top third of the immersion and the water in the header tank?

The other pipe which I never attempted after the flooding caused by the first which goes to the bottom of the immersion with a valve and on up into the attic and straight to the boiler. This should't be a problem emptying the whole immersion because of the valve?? ie If I close that valve I just lose water from the pipe itself.

So once all that was done and I had recapped the defunct pipes, the pipes,immersion,boiler would just refill from the header once I released the ballcock, No bubbles, airlocks etc etc ?? I'd just re-open all the valves (in any order??), turn the water back on at the mains and the pipes would refill, the header would refill and the top third of the immersion would refill?? I'd know it was refilled when the header filled back up and the stopcock closed and then and only then could I turn the heating back on??? Have I got that right James??

Actually come to think of it wouldn't turning off the mains as I did have stopped either the main or header tank refilling in the attic without even bothering with the ballcock???

TBH she who must be obeyed does not want me to continue and would rather box the pipes back in rather than cut and recap cap them now. I need to convince her that I've got it sussed now....I think!! She doesn't want me to risk damaging the central heating in the depths of Winter:D:D I've been trying to explain to her that the initial gush of water we got when I uncapped the pipe which amounted to about 3 or 4 litres didn't damage the system, it refilled that 4 litres without a hitch and the boiler didn't conk out or explode when I turned it back on, the rads are all boiling right to the top, no growning sounds from the pipes etc

How do I convince her?! :D:D

JamesM

There is a health warning with this post: Beware the bottle of wine which has infiltrated my brain:o

Calibos wrote:

So if I tie up the ball cock and close all the rads, the only water I lose is the water in the pipes above the defunct pipe in the system? I would also loose the water in the top third of the immersion and the water in the header tank?

There is a coil in the cylinder, so no water lost - rest should be right.:D

Calibos wrote:

The other pipe which I never attempted after the flooding caused by the first which goes to the bottom of the immersion with a valve and on up into the attic and straight to the boiler. This should't be a problem emptying the whole immersion because of the valve?? ie If I close that valve I just lose water from the pipe itself.

Yes - see above about the coil.

Calibos wrote:

So once all that was done and I had recapped the defunct pipes, the pipes,immersion,boiler would just refill from the header once I released the ballcock, No bubbles, airlocks etc etc ?? I'd just re-open all the valves (in any order??), turn the water back on at the mains and the pipes would refill, the header would refill and the top third of the immersion would refill?? I'd know it was refilled when the header filled back up and the stopcock closed and then and only then could I turn the heating back on??? Have I got that right James??

Yes Yes - forget about the top third, does not apply.

Calibos wrote:

Actually come to think of it wouldn't turning off the mains as I did have stopped either the main or header tank refilling in the attic without even bothering with the ballcock???

Yes - but no water in rest of house while you are f - ing about.

Calibos wrote:

TBH she who must be obeyed does not want me to continue and would rather box the pipes back in rather than cut and recap cap them now. I need to convince her that I've got it sussed now....I think!! She doesn't want me to risk damaging the central heating in the depths of Winter:D:D I've been trying to explain to her that the initial gush of water we got when I uncapped the pipe which amounted to about 3 or 4 litres didn't damage the system, it refilled that 4 litres without a hitch and the boiler didn't conk out or explode when I turned it back on, the rads are all boiling right to the top, no growning sounds from the pipes etc

I think that it is that simple

Calibos wrote:

How do I convince her?! :D:D

Tell her about ME :eek: :eek: :eek:

rooferPete

Hi,

I agree with the bottle of wine oops I mean Jim through the bottle of wine

One option that might persuade "Her Indoors" and make life a bit easier for you is to buy a freeze pack and use it on the pipes above the ceiling.

Then when you remove the caps the only water that comes out will be what is below the frozen block.

If you have everything prepared such as new blanks beside the pipes etc you should have everything completed in about 45 minutes.

What you might consider if going Jim's route is to fit a drain off valve on one of the pipes to the rads downstairs, that would allow for any future maintenance on the system.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Calibos
How do I convince her?!
Tell her about ME :eek: :eek: :eek:

Maybe you could edit the text and remove this little piece ?

There is a health warning with this post: Beware the bottle of wine which has infiltrated my brain

Nice post Jim regardless of one's condition being aided or hindered by above mentioned inebriation

.

Calibos

JamesM wrote:

Tell her about ME :eek: :eek: :eek:

Ya know what her response to that would be?

"Do you believe everything people tell you on the internet?"

"Well no dear, when someone called busty betty tells me she is a gorgeous 19yo who wants to 'cyber', I don't believe everything that she tells me, I am sensible enough to know 'she' is probably a fat 55yo man. But dear when someone tells me how to drain my heating system in a DIY forum I tend to believe him and not think the worst that he is a plumber with a vicious streak who will sit in his armchair cackling with glee at the thoughts of having misinformed some random bloke on the internet so he'll flood his house"

This is what I have to live with!

Calibos

One option that might persuade "Her Indoors" and make life a bit easier for you is to buy a freeze pack and use it on the pipes above the ceiling.

Just saw you post Pete. Whats this freeze pack you speak of. Where would I get one? How long would the heating have to be off before i could use the freeze pack.

I can see how it would work and in an unpressurized system there would be plenty of space for the ice to expand but once again I can envision the answer from you know who.

"Haven't you heard what happens to peoples pipes in the winter when they freeze. THE HOUSE GETS FLOODED!!"

"Yeah, but we'd only be freezing a small section....."

"No"

"but ya see, seeing as it won't all be frozen the ice expand just pushes a bit of water out of the overflow into the head........"

"NO"

"but roofer pete said"

"Who is roofer pete, do you know him? He's another one of your inter web thingy friends isn't he. He's not even a plumber, he's called roofer pete! NO NO NO!"

This is the story of my life. I suggest some DIY, She says you can't do that get a pro in, I say its only a small job that I can do myself, she says no, I go and do it anyway, she is thrilled after its done and I've made a good job of it, tells me I'm amazing and she's glad we saved the money. Next time a small DIY job comes up I suggest that I can do it myself, she says no get a pro in........etc. etc. For instance amongst other jobs we got a builder to quote for was to knock out a door that had been filled in. He wanted 400 to knock it out. I said I could do it, she said no, I said I could do it if the lintle was still over the door and the blocks hadn't been interlinked with the rest of the wall, she said no, I said that I'd just chisel off some plaster on the side of the wall which was being replastered anyway to check for the lintle and interlinking, she said no, I did it anyway, found there was a lintle and no interlinking and had the wall down in about 30 minutes saving 400 quid.

She's always telling me how amazing I am and how I can do anything when I put my mind to it....when I'm not putting my mind to anything. When I do put my mind to something I'm told "you wouldn't be able to do that"

I can't win!! :D

Trust me dear, I know what I'm doing are famous last words but I do always consult my 'friends from the internet' first or at the very least before I've done any major damage! :D

JamesM

If I'd known that you guys were still up last night, we could have had a party
Over the years, I have seen plumbers using freeze packs with big cylinders (nitrogen ? ) and have recently seen smaller cylinders in Heating Suppliers.
Without experience, I would always be worried that the water had not frozen enough - and that it would "Pop". Draining might be safer.
Go for it anyway
Jim.