Playing Kings from up front

Amaru

2nd level of a SNG, 9 players remaining, dealt Kd Kh UTG
Raise to 3BB
2 callers, both blinds fold

Flop comes 8c Ac Ah

Whats your play?

roryc

I would normally throw out another 3 or 4 BB to see where I'm at. If I get a call or raise it usually represents that I'm up against an ace

ocallagh

Yeah bet the flop and see how they react..

If the first guy calls or raises he certainly has an Ace and you should check fold.

If the 2nd guy calls he has an ace 80% of the time. A decent player in this situation might call you without an Ace to see what you do on the turn. But unfortunately you're out of position and you will probably have to fold if they represent strength.. I don't see any way out of it unless you make a continuation bet on the turn...

If I was against one player and I knew they were decent.... I might check call a smallish bet on the flop.. and check the turn to see what they do. If they check behind you on the turn you should also check the river.. If they have AT-A2 or a PP a decent player will also check behind you on the river fearing a trap.

hotspur

roryc wrote:

I would normally throw out another 3 or 4 BB to see where I'm at.

Aww felt sure that sentence from our Rory was shaping up to be :

"I would normally throw out...my toys from the pram and declare that Internet poker is ridicuous and that I'm quitting for good!"

Hectorjelly

This is an interesting hand to look at from a game theory perspective, as it brings up many crucial issues. Most interesing I think is how do your actions here relate to your play on other hands, and vice versa.

Many players will never bet that flop if they contain an ace. If you never bet there with quads or trips then you are leaking a TONNE of information by betting with KK there. Also its important to note that even if you do bet strong hands there, your opponent might not realise or have played with you before. So then you need to guess what your opponents are likely to do, as thats what they will assume you do.

willis

It depends on the level and type of players your playing imo. If i was in this hand with say QJ and you bet that flop i would reraise you the majority of the time(depending on stack sizes,position etc) as, depending on the type of player you are, you would have checked with the ace as most players do, like hector said. However at a higher level some people bet out here with the ace in order to get reraised, so its tricky situation and i believe its all about the type of player your against. I would check this flop with KK as it looks a slowplay and see what my opponenets do...there arent too many scare cards that can hit the turn either

AmarilloFats

Hectorjelly wrote:

Many players will never bet that flop if they contain an ace.

And because of this they'll often assume you will act similarly...Hence if you bet the flop I think you'll get played back at more often, and thus will often lay down the best hand. Hence(at the lowly levels I play) I like a check flop bet turn line..It really does depend on your opponents and image and all things game theoryesque..
RoryC..I don nae like throwing out a 1/3 pot bet..

Iago

I don't like the check here, unless you are determined to check-raise regardless. The problem with raising preflop at this level is that a 3*BB raise is only 120 chips out of a stack of maybe 1500-2500 depending on the earlier action. Worthwhile calling with a wide range of hands. I normally either vastly exaggerate my raise here (to 6-8*BB) or limp and hope that someone raises behind me with a pp or Ax and then push.

However given the preflop action and depending on my stack size and what I know about the other players I'll normally throw out a 1/3-1/2 pot sized bet here. This holds through whether I've raised with Ax or KK. Considering it's only the 2nd level the other two players have probably got an average stack, and the only likely way they're coming over the top here is all-in and if they have an A with a good kicker (or pocket 8's). If they raise I'm done with the hand.

If they flat call, the turn becomes a nightmare, you have to assume that they have an A at the very least. So unless a K comes down, the odds are I'll check here (I know, I know, horribly weak play) but if they flat call on the flop I'm done putting chips into the middle. I still have more than enough chips to get on with the game and get back into the money positions.

Waylander

I would probably play it the same way as Iago. I think if you check the flop, one of the other two players will have a go at the pot, and I would have to lay down the Kings. By betting out, at least the other players have to make the decision, and if you get called you have a pretty good idea you are behind. Also, your bet may look like a milking bet to the other players and as you raised preflop it would not be difficult for them to put you onn a strong A.

willis

If i was villain i either raise or call any bet on this flop from hero that is only 1/2 the pot size,i will make the hero make a decision on the turn. At a more advanced level i fold to a 1/2 size bet, depending on type of oppnonent and how tricky a plyer he is. Therefore i think check in this sitution isnt so bad, as if you check villain will probably check behind with an ace(so free card), and will also think you may be slowplaying if he himself has no ace and will be afraid to bet. I then bet the turn and play from there. if he bets on flop and i think hes weak i flat call and stick out bet on the turn.

Amaru

Iago wrote:

If they flat call, the turn becomes a nightmare, you have to assume that they have an A at the very least. So unless a K comes down, the odds are I'll check here (I know, I know, horribly weak play) but if they flat call on the flop I'm done putting chips into the middle. I still have more than enough chips to get on with the game and get back into the money positions.

See, herein lies the problem. There's 2 to a flush on board, and at this level, people still throw caution to the wind and draw on a paired board. However, with 2 callers, I have to assume one of them has an ace. If i throw out any sort of bet, and i get a call, what do i know then? Either they have ace weak(J or T maybe), or are drawing. With that, on the turn i have to either make a decision as to whether i think they're slowplaying me, or they're drawing.

Also, the board had a second 2 flush on the turn, making things even more complicated.

Hectorjelly

Amaru wrote:

I have to assume one of them has an ace. If i throw out any sort of bet, and i get a call, what do i know then?

If you are pretty sure that someone has an ace then just check fold.

Iago

Amaru wrote:

I have to assume one of them has an ace.

Any PP, Ax o/s, KQ-KTs, KQ-KJo,Qjs,QJo,JTs all are possible. At the lower levels you can add in JTo, T9s, T9o and probably any suited connectors to 76s. The raise isn't big enough to take these hands off preflop.

I wouldn't be automatically putting either play on an A here, hence the bet to see where I am. The problem is when you are called or raised from there, frankly with any PP 99 and up I might well call or raise if in the Villians position...depending on what notes I had on you

Amaru

No, i'm not sure they have an ace, but i have to assume one of them does. What hands could they be calling with here? AK-AT, maybe A2 and up suited, KQ, maybe KJ, and any PP.

Anyway, here's how the hand played out. I checked, as did both others. I still have no idea where i am in the hand, as people will often slowplay trips here. Turn 2 flushes the board again. I'm completely lost now, as i don't know whether to check or bet. Its checked all the way around again.

River brings an unsuited rag. Its checked to a showdown, and i take the hand with Aces and Kings! What the other two had is still a complete mystery.

Amaru

Iago wrote:

Any PP, Ax o/s, KQ-KTs, KQ-KJo,Qjs,QJo,JTs all are possible. At the lower levels you can add in JTo, T9s, T9o and probably any suited connectors to 76s. The raise isn't big enough to take these hands off preflop.

I strongly disagree. At this level, people don't call raises with suited connectors. They need 2 face cards, a PP, or an A or K suited. I only felt i was up against the hands stated above though. Also, i don't see why the raise isn't big enough. Whats a big enough raise to you to remove the trash hands?

Iago

I've seen players at every level from $5-$50 play suited connectors when faced with a raise, and particularily if somebody else has flat called in front of them and given them better pot odds for their call.

As for yoru raise it depends what you call a trash hand? my point isn't about the raise itself it's the BB that you're multipling. At the lower levels if you don't want to be called by marginal hands you have to exagerrate your raise, either that or limp/call, limp/re-raise.

If I have a stack of 2K and you raise to 180, get one caller and now there's 450 in the pot and I need to call 180 to see it, I'll call with a lot of marginal hands, especially if I feel I can outplay you postflop. I have position and on a rag or close to rag flop, I have a strong chance of either hitting the best hand or getting you to fold a stronger hand that hasn't hit hard enough.

There's a wide range of hands that could have got involved here, I don't believe I'm a million miles off with the range I gave above.

Amaru

I think you're giving the players at this level too much credit, especially on tribeca. Most of them haven't a clue about implied odds, much less pot odds. If you look at the hand, nobody attempted to bet into me, even though i had shown strength pre flop, and then considerable weakness on all other streets. Neither are playing position strongly. If i'm in LP, i'll bet 90% on an unraised flop, regardless of the cards out or what i hold.

As far as what i'd call a trash hand, i'd say AJ down, KJ down, and all other hands that aren't PP's. The majority of players will play the range i've stated, but suited connectors are the exception, not the rule.

willis

Amaru wrote:

Anyway, here's how the hand played out. I checked, as did both others. I still have no idea where i am in the hand, as people will often slowplay trips here. Turn 2 flushes the board again. I'm completely lost now, as i don't know whether to check or bet. Its checked all the way around again.

I like the check on flop, as I said above it allows you a free card most of time as an ace will prob check behind. I bet the turn though, i reckon now you will find out if they have an ace,especially with the board double suited they wont slowplay any longer, and they wont reraise as a bluff because the way you've played the hand suggests you have the ace. I also think your worrying too much about the possible flush draws, people assume that once there are 2 hearts on board then someone will definitly have flush draw etc. which is a mistake to make imo

DocO

Id have checked the flop and flat called any raise, as everyone else thinks not many would lead out betting with the ace (although i do not disagree with doing this). more than likely it will be a checked flop. I would now throw a suspicious 1/2 pot size bet out, showing that you want value on your trips and want a caller, but also want to price the draw (u have to be able to risk that there wont b a flush on the river, and if there is then with only two other players (presuming they both call) that either of them possess the flush). Getting max re-raised here would only be done by an ace IMO, but i think that it was played in the way that you represented the ace, and also took conrtol of the hand on the turn, asking the questions to the original raiser. this is how id have played the hand