Article: Consideration for removing Westlink barriers

Seth Brundle

Consideration for removing Westlink barriers
from http://www.rte.ie/news/2005/1130/westlink.html
30 November 2005 07:24

Consideration is being given to removing barriers on the Westlink Toll Bridge on the M50 motorway in order to speed up traffic.

RTÉ News has learned the suggestion was made as part of a presentation to the Minister for Transport, Martin Cullen, last May by the directors of NTR, the private company which owns the bridge.

The proposal is to scrap the barriers and charge drivers, perhaps by prepaid toll or electronically.

However, its owners are concerned that some drivers might evade paying.

Documents released under Freedom of Information Act show NTR has raised the possibility of using penalty points deal with motorists abusing the scheme.

It has also suggested targeting people who try to evade tolls by charging them more for motor tax.

Minutes from the meeting with NTR show Mr Cullen welcomed what he called the good work by the company on the proposals.

But a spokesperson for the minister last night stressed the meeting was purely an information briefing by NTR. It is understood there has been no final decision on the issue.

15 years ago when the Westlink opened over 10,000 cars past through it every day, but now the figure is almost ten times that.

There has been criticism the toll bridge holds up traffic on a motorway originally designed to alleviate congestion.

Does our government usually create legislation to protect one individual company?

D'Peoples Voice

kbannon wrote:

Consideration for removing Westlink barriers
from http://www.rte.ie/news/2005/1130/westlink.html
Does our government usually create legislation to protect one individual company?

when will our Minister learn, you can never introduce electronic tagging until we sort out the foreign reg plates and the no-fixed abode traveller issues!

Ireland needs to press the EU for a central database for all reg plates across the EU, then introduce elctronic tagging. As for the no-fixed abode travellers, well travellers are a law onto themselves!
It's not rocket science!
The government should ntoe that every car that evades paying the toll, causes a loss of revenue for the government, money that could be spent on nursing homes for the vulnerable elderly. They are shooting themselves in the foot.

spacetweek

D'Peoples Voice wrote:

when will our Minister learn, you can never introduce electronic tagging until we sort out the foreign reg plates and the no-fixed abode traveller issues!

Ireland needs to press the EU for a central database for all reg plates across the EU, then introduce elctronic tagging. As for the no-fixed abode travellers, well travellers are a law onto themselves!
It's not rocket science!
The government should ntoe that every car that evades paying the toll, causes a loss of revenue for the government, money that could be spent on nursing homes for the vulnerable elderly. They are shooting themselves in the foot.

Whatever about your criticisms here, surely you're not denying the fact that removing the barriers is what everybody - motorists, planners, the government, NTR - wants? International experience shows that a certain (5%?) evasion rate is standard and cannot reasonably be avoided. Having no barriers is infinitely preferable to having them. Also other countries also have to deal with the issue of foreign regs too.

Calina

spacetweek wrote:

Whatever about your criticisms here, surely you're not denying the fact that removing the barriers is what everybody - motorists, planners, the government, NTR - wants? International experience shows that a certain (5%?) evasion rate is standard and cannot reasonably be avoided. Having no barriers is infinitely preferable to having them. Also other countries also have to deal with the issue of foreign regs too.

On that subject, the French have signed a deal with the Luxembourgers to handle traffic transgressions (speeding fines, as it happens) and are more than enthusiastic about making it pan-EU given that about 25% of speeding offences in France are by cars bearing foreign registration plates. You live in Luxembourg, you speed in France, you get your fine in the post.

Got to say, NTR wouldn't be top of my list of organisations to accommodate on this front though.

Hotblack Desiato

It's laughable that penalty points are being considered for the heinous crime of forgetting to pay a couple of euro toll.

Bad enough that abuse of speed cameras is bringing the system into disrepute, there's no way that tolls have any impact on road safety.

Imagine if the clampers could impose points! :eek:

Now I'm all for parking offenders and toll dodgers getting fined, but to misuse penalty points for this - especially to enrich a private company - is disgraceful and can only have a negative effect on our already bad attitudes to road safety and road traffic law.

Amazing to think that NTR want to potentially take licences / jobs off people for not paying a toll. Have they no sense of proportion whatsoever?

Maskhadov

stop pussyfutting around and buy the whole thing out. it would save motorists years and years of torture.

saobh_ie

What exactly can NTR do to people who fly through the easy pass lane without an easy pass or sneak through behind the trucks or on motorbikes, just whizz past the barriers around the the cars as I am often oh so tempted to do...

I mean if I stop I'm just going to delay everyone behind me for two to six minutes depending on my mood.

westtip

Do what the people of the Isle of Skye did - just don't pay the tolls. This bridge has been paid for the people want it back..actually I prefer the Swiss option of paying for motorway driving - an additional annual charge in the form of a second tax disc. All vehicles even those visiting the country have to have one, you buy it at the border and it is fiercely enforced, I think it costs about 60 euro now - you pay once a year for a 12 month pass - even if you are just passing through switzerland on vacation. If you are caught without it no questions are asked, a hefty on the spot fine - all major cards accepted and you have to buy the disc to continue your journey on the motorway. The disc gives you access to all motorways in Switzerland for a year. No need for PPPs then.

Victor

saobh_ie wrote:

What exactly can NTR do to people who fly through the easy pass lane without an easy pass or sneak through behind the trucks or on motorbikes, just whizz past the barriers around the the cars as I am often oh so tempted to do...

I heard of a guy who left his wallet in his gym bag, when he threw it in the boot of the car. He tried to fob them off with "I'll pay double tomorrow, I'm a garda". He was told the barrier would be lifted and he was to do an about turn. The barrier lifted and he sped off. A week later he got the fine notice, complete with photo.

Turner

95% of irish people are law abiding, who will pay their taxes and tolls without their ever being a chance of them being caught. Its the way any society is.

No need to worry about the 5% who do actually skip the tolls, people who are in the courts every day and have no money and just caught in a poverty circle.

The fear of an ordinary decent person (95% of population) getting caught court appearance/points etc, will make them pay their tolls

Thing is im wondering, if the Toll Bridge was barrier free would it just move the tailback problems to the slip roads,
(N7 - traffic lights/luas holding traffic up)
(N4 ok if your heading north, but south traffic lights prove a problem)

Not too sure about finglas/ballymun exits i never travel them or know what traffic lights systems are present.

Chief.

Nuttzz

Cant we use a system similar to the congestion charges in london??

Capt'n Midnight

Nuttzz wrote:

Cant we use a system similar to the congestion charges in london??

NO.

In London there are working public transport alternatives that don't involve travelling into the city centre if you and your destination aren't on the same route. Walking/Waiting for the connection can easily take half an hour each way .

markpb

Capt'n Midnight wrote:

NO.

In London there are working public transport alternatives that don't involve travelling into the city centre if you and your destination aren't on the same route. Walking/Waiting for the connection can easily take half an hour each way .

I think he means a system where the clampers have a list of cars who haven't paid their congestion charge and can clamp on sight?

dudara

Does anyone else that that NTR are getting beyond themselves, requesting that the government use a civil punishment such as penalty points to penalise toll dodgers.

BTW, question here: Do NTR pay the government any percentage of the tolls collected

D'Peoples Voice

spacetweek wrote:

Whatever about your criticisms here, surely you're not denying the fact that removing the barriers is what everybody - motorists, planners, the government, NTR - wants?

Oh, too true I want electronic tagging!

In fact, I would like if the Government brought in a law banning any vehicle entering the M50 without having Easypass.
At each entry/exit on the M50, they could have methods of reading when you joined the road and when you left the road. Then you would be billed according to the amount of the road you used, the busier parts carrying a heavier weighting. NTR would then get a smaller % of the toll, as they only own 3-4 kms of the road. But the government won't do this, because that would be gutsy!

I must say I found this article very informative on this topic
http://www.findarticles.com/p/articles/mi_qa3927/is_199909/ai_n8875907#continue

Capt'n Midnight

dudara wrote:

BTW, question here: Do NTR pay the government any percentage of the tolls collected

Yes, they get a % of the tolls AND VAT.

Bit like housing really, the Gov't gets so much VAT, property tax on house sales, Income tax from builders etc. that there is no incentive for them to help reduce house prices.



Re Toll booths on the M50 junctions. NTR had started building them on the Liffey Valley underpass. Not sure if it meant they were trying to toll people going southbound or what. But until someone can confirm otherwise it's another reason to not like them.

BTW: AFAIK the original M50 contract/proposal had a queue limit of 70 yards (can anyone confirm this or is it sour grapes ? ). Can we find out how this was changed ? Can we sue over it ? If ( and only asking because different companies / individuals of that era have been accused of it ) it ever turns out that money changed hands to get this changed would NTR refund and implement the original ??

Mailman

Removing the toll barriers and not even doing any improvements to the M50 would be preferable to the current situation as it clears the M50 of traffic.

The tailbacks will occur on the off ramps not on the M50 itself leaving those travelling the length of the M50 exiting at one of the final off-ramps with a clearer road to use.

Letting the traffic back up on off-ramps is preferable to letting it back up at the toll booth and then again at the off-ramp because:
a) It will give an extra 30 to 40 minutes at the start of each rush hour period before the M50 backs up - the M50 will still get blocked but later into rush hour inconveniencing fewer and the rush hour will come to an end earlier as traffic volumes die down.
b) The absolute throughput on the motorway increases because the average speed of motorists is higher - they are on the motorway for less time causing less hassle to those around them who have to maintain breaking distances or change lanes.
c) The weaving necessary to get in to the appropriate manned, cash or easy pass lane generates jams of itself.

Think of the M50 as a piece of CAT 5 network cabling with the Toll both being CAT 3 and it is easier to visualise how to resolve the problems on the road.
Traffic on a CAT5 network versus CAT3 network always flows more smoothly because there is less chance of collisions.
Solution 1) Get rid of the CAT3 cable and replace it with CAT 5 which with regard to the M50 means getting rid of the toll both
Soltion 2) Keep CAT 3 in the middle and upgrade the rest to CAT 6 or 7(a third lane) - from a IT point of view this is a rubbish solution but it is the solution that the Government are pushing for the M50.
Solution 3) Upgrade to CAT 6 or 7 and increasing the hubs on the cable - put in another lane both ways and put cloverleaf interchanges in at junctions.
Solution 3 is best and less expensive if the toll booth is bought out first as then we don't have to compensate NTR for traffic disruption.

Capt'n Midnight

what is the average speed of cars on the Two lane sections before the toll booths ?

The optimal speed is 40mph because any faster and the longer gaps mean fewer cars pass.

Doubling the toll and charging one way could be done tomorrow ( EVEN if the gov't needs to pass a law cf. the Youth Employment Levy tax refund debacle ) this would speed up one direction.

Over the weekend they could use some white paint (ok you need the special truck to do it) and turn the sensors so that most booths could be used to take tolls - speeding up the tolled direction too.

They could do an expiriment to test this out beforehand - it would cost them nothing as a radio station have offered to pay for all cars that pass through in a 15 minute period.

So if there was the will to do it a partial solution could be in place for the commute on Monday morning.

ishmael whale

Capt'n Midnight wrote:

So if there was the will to do it a partial solution could be in place for the commute on Monday morning.

Indeed, but I take it the purpose of floating this story in the media at present is simply to create a general impression that the Government is sympathetic to the idea of removing the booths, while not actually doing anything about it.

Victor

One-way tolling may not work, with the exception where it is the only route (e.g. to an island or across a long estuary). One-way tolling would mean everyone would use the free bit and huge numbers would bypass the route in the other direction.

You could of course charge those travelling northbound in the morning and those travelling southbound in the evening.

Capt'n Midnight

Victor wrote:

One-way tolling may not work, with the exception where it is the only route (e.g. to an island or across a long estuary). One-way tolling would mean everyone would use the free bit and huge numbers would bypass the route in the other direction.

The alternatives are
Lucan Bridge
Chapelizod Bridge / Anna Livia
Islandbridge
Frank Sherwin Bridge ( Heuston station )

The approaches to all of which would be fairly busy anyway.

Nuttzz

markpb wrote:

I think he means a system where the clampers have a list of cars who haven't paid their congestion charge and can clamp on sight?

thats what i meant, using thew same technology for recording car info

spacetweek

westtip wrote:

..actually I prefer the Swiss option of paying for motorway driving - an additional annual charge in the form of a second tax disc. All vehicles even those visiting the country have to have one, you buy it at the border and it is fiercely enforced, I think it costs about 60 euro now - you pay once a year for a 12 month pass - even if you are just passing through switzerland on vacation. If you are caught without it no questions are asked, a hefty on the spot fine - all major cards accepted and you have to buy the disc to continue your journey on the motorway. The disc gives you access to all motorways in Switzerland for a year. No need for PPPs then.

Ridiculous idea. Thereby ensuring that tourists, etc. are prevented from using the motorways. As if anyone would pay 60 quid to use motorways for a week.

spacetweek

Capt'n Midnight wrote:

In London there are working public transport alternatives that don't involve travelling into the city centre if you and your destination aren't on the same route.

Hopefully after T21 is completed we can revisit the congestion charging issue.

spacetweek

Chief--- wrote:

Thing is im wondering, if the Toll Bridge was barrier free would it just move the tailback problems to the slip roads,
(N7 - traffic lights/luas holding traffic up)
(N4 ok if your heading north, but south traffic lights prove a problem)

It probably would - look at the tailback southbound stretching from the Red Cow roundabout sometimes as far back as the bridge. This tailback isn't caused by the bridge, it's caused by the N7 exit. The N4-N7 upgrade can't happen quickly enough AS WELL AS free flow at the toll booths.

Hotblack Desiato

I'm amazed that there hasn't been more comment on the ludicrous suggestion by NTR that dodging/forgetting to pay a couple of euro toll should incur penalty points.

Penalty points should only be used for offences which endanger road safety (and many of the speeding tickets currently being issued don't even meet this criterion.)

If NTR get this then they might as well give you penalty points for no TV licence, or littering.

Kazujo

Where is the collected toll money actually being used at the moment?

I would be interesting to a test over a few days at random (to stop people doing it just beacuse it's free) open all the booths and allow free flow of traffic across the bridge just to see exactly how much a of a difference it makes.

I think a huge part of the problem is the fact that two lanes open into 8? approaching the toll plaza, they then compress back into 4 then 3 then into 4 again. Plus you have trafic using the easy pass cutting across the whole lot to get to the N4 exit ramp?

Take away the booths and remove the extra lanes created for the extra booths so it's a nice straight road again.

Capt'n Midnight

Kazujo wrote:

Where is the collected toll money actually being used at the moment?

NTR shareholders and the Govt

I would be interesting to a test over a few days at random (to stop people doing it just beacuse it's free) open all the booths and allow free flow of traffic across the bridge just to see exactly how much a of a difference it makes.

NTR have rejected offers of a third party paying for the tolls. during a strike they had management collecting tolls - it ain't going to happen unless the govrnment force it by law IMHO.

I think a huge part of the problem is the fact that two lanes open into 8? approaching the toll plaza, they then compress back into 4 then 3 then into 4 again. Plus you have trafic using the easy pass cutting across the whole lot to get to the N4 exit ramp?

that's why the built the second bridge so people could queue on it, if traffic could move across the bridge at 40mph you would would need only one. IMHO NTR alone created the need for the second bridge yet they benefit from it by getting an extension on their racket.

Take away the booths and remove the extra lanes created for the extra booths so it's a nice straight road again.

two problems, NTR's cash cow and the governments percentage. With the present contract NTR are due to take in €1Bn by the time the contract expires. This for an original investment of £30m for a bridge which is only of use because of the £300m spent by the taxpayer to build the roads leading up to it. /RANT

BrianD

The alternative would be to use electronic gantry tolling as they use in Melbourne. There is no toll booths as each car enters the tolled road it's registration is read by over head gantries. These gantries also read the equivalent of an easy pass and deduct the relevant toll.

Users who don't have an Eazypass have 24 hours to pay their toll. These tolls can be paid at a variety of locations or by phone/internet. Non-payers face a pretty hefty fine. At present, there is no legislation in Ireland that allows a fine or punishment for anybody who does not pay a toll. If the barrier is up there is nothing to stop you giving the two fingers and driving on through.

Would the gantry system work in Ireland? Yes, but with difficulty. We Irish have a very cavalier approach to these things and complain bitterly when we are forced to do something. It would take a huge mindset change to get people signed up for an easy pass dispite the fact that they probably pay cash for tolls everyday. There would also be the problem with dealing with casual users of the road.

When in Melbourne they whole idea of using the toll road as a casual user and then having to deal with paying for it afterwards put me off using it. I'd imagine that you would find a lot more people using alternatives to the M50.

spockety

The Government VAT issue is almost irrelevant, I'm amazed people even see it as an issue.

What's going to happen if people don't pay Tolls, and the VAT isn't collected?

People will spend the money on something else, and will incur VAT on THAT. they're hardly going to start posting their 1.80 out of the country so it leaves the economy, or hoard it somewhere. People will continue to spend, they'll just spend more on other things than they would have on the Westlink.

Capt'n Midnight

The Govt get a cut of NTR's take.
The EU forced the VAT on it because of the nature of the service.

To give you an idea of how generous the Toll is.

The original Toll was 76p NTR rounded UP this to 80p then added the VAT = £ 1.00 Then rounded UP when the Euro came in to €1.30

BUT 76p * 1.21 = 91.96p
AND 91.96p / 0.787564 = €1.163 - so should have been €1.20 not €1.30

BWT if it had been 75p originally then the € toll would be €1,137 Which would be Rounded DOWN to €1.10 So the 1p difference between 75p and 76p for the toll has cost car drivers 20c per trip.