The church and homosexuality

joejoem

Hey I was just reading an article on the church's view on homosexuality. As a member of my immediate family is gay and we were all raised catholic I have followed this subject. I expected things to change with the new pope, that maybe the church would wake up to the new generation and change its views. Maybe stop outcasting people for there natural urges, but obviously they havent. the article is one of many

The Vatican says practicing homosexuals and those with strong tendencies toward homosexuality should not be allowed to enter the priesthood. According to a leaked document confirmed by the Vatican, gay men who are sexually active or support "gay culture" will be unwelcome in seminary unless they have overcome their homosexual tendencies for at least three years. The document was to be released officially next week. Religion correspondent Barbara Bradley Hagerty has the details

After speaking at lenth to my sister she has decided against having her children (long story) getting ordained. At first I felt a little shocked, but after putting thought into this I have I have to agree. Why place her children into an "orginisation" which instigates segregation and hatred for people we love. This farce that is the catholic orginisation and the others that follow like it do nothing but inspire hatred and intolerance to those that arent the norm. The only time I will enter a church from this day on is for funerals. Even at that, my reason for being there will be out of respect for the departeds family. I have no faith in the church, I look forward to the day of its demise.

Hobart

joejoem wrote:

Hey I was just reading an article on the church's view on homosexuality. As a member of my immediate family is gay and we were all raised catholic I have followed this subject. I expected things to change with the new pope, that maybe the church would wake up to the new generation and change its views. Maybe stop outcasting people for there natural urges, but obviously they havent. the article is one of many

The Vatican says practicing homosexuals and those with strong tendencies toward homosexuality should not be allowed to enter the priesthood. According to a leaked document confirmed by the Vatican, gay men who are sexually active or support "gay culture" will be unwelcome in seminary unless they have overcome their homosexual tendencies for at least three years. The document was to be released officially next week. Religion correspondent Barbara Bradley Hagerty has the details

After speaking at lenth to my sister she has decided against having her children (long story) getting ordained. At first I felt a little shocked, but after putting thought into this I have I have to agree. Why place her children into an "orginisation" which instigates segregation and hatred for people we love. This farce that is the catholic orginisation and the others that follow like it do nothing but inspire hatred and intolerance to those that arent the norm. The only time I will enter a church from this day on is for funerals. Even at that, my reason for being there will be out of respect for the departeds family. I have no faith in the church, I look forward to the day of its demise.

It's actually worse. I think this leak is actually a diversionary tactic by the church to take away from what the actual document says. You could substitute the words Homosexual for the word Hetrosexual, in the above text, and the church would claim that the rules are the same. i.e. No matter what your sexual orientation, the church would insist that you have been celibate for at least 3 years before they would accept you for ordination. Fair enough position, imo.

But what the document actually says (and I am paraphrasing) is that Homosexuals, because of their "condition", do not have the capacity to communicate with Men or Women in a manner which would be acceptable to the church. This is back to the bad 'ol days of the church and is typical of the stance of the "new" pope.

LegacyUser

joejoem wrote:

After speaking at lenth to my sister she has decided against having her children (long story) getting ordained. At first I felt a little shocked, but after putting thought into this I have I have to agree. Why place her children into an "orginisation" which instigates segregation and hatred for people we love. This farce that is the catholic orginisation and the others that follow like it do nothing but inspire hatred and intolerance to those that arent the norm. The only time I will enter a church from this day on is for funerals. Even at that, my reason for being there will be out of respect for the departeds family. I have no faith in the church, I look forward to the day of its demise.

No, the whole policy is one of love the sinner hate the sin. The church has never asked for hatred of people and has never asked for people to be ostracised. It is important to note that the words 'grave sin' are the same words used in a document describing impure thoughts, and so could be thought of as nothing too serious. Basically it is the media making a huge hype over nothing.

I am a Christain but I NEVER inspire hatred or intolerance for those that aren't the norm and would request you rephrase that. It is a sad day when people are leaving the Church because of things they have not thought about enough and haven't bothered to find out the true facts behind the issues. The document and indeed the policy is designed to be in no way discrinatory, so please don't leave the church. Rather embrace the goodness that is most of it.

AMDG

Hmm_Messiah

joejoem wrote:

I expected things to change with the new pope, that maybe the church would wake up to the new generation and change its views. Maybe stop outcasting people for there natural urges, but obviously they havent.

You must of been the only person expecting change from th new Popoe, Ratzinger was the person in the vatican leading the conservativestance over the past decades.

After speaking at lenth to my sister she has decided against having her children (long story) getting ordained. At first I felt a little shocked, but after putting thought into this I have I have to agree. Why place her children into an "orginisation" which instigates segregation and hatred for people we love.

I understand your sister's decision (I assume you mean baptism). However if the christian faith you were brought up in is still important your sister might like to know that baptism invites her children into the "christian" as opposed to Roman Catholic faith.

On a more practical note I kow some parents had great difficulty gettig a place in school for their unbaptised child, I am not sure how much that situation has changed with the different multicultural school projects.

This new RC dictate makes a judgement on peope as a group rather than accepting their individual moral code and strengths; in that it is itself flawed and disordered.

joejoem

No I was talking about the childs holy communion. Both children were baptised. Neither will make there holy communion as this is where the teaching starts.

nubbintom

'Why place her children into an "orginisation" which instigates segregation and hatred for people we love. '

No one said you cant love someone, try again.

'This farce that is the catholic orginisation and the others that follow like it do nothing but inspire hatred and intolerance to those that arent the norm'

Wrong again....

'The only time I will enter a church from this day on is for funerals. Even at that, my reason for being there will be out of respect for the departeds family'

Your choice, kinda childish based on one criticism about the church.

'I have no faith in the church, I look forward to the day of its demise

Take comfort knowing that you will be long gone before the christian faith.

shay_562

No one said you cant love someone, try again.

Actually, I'm pretty sure they did. Now, I don't want to start a huge argument over religion or anything (not that those aren't always fun etc), but no one can deny that the Church has been traditionally hostile towards homosexuals, and that it continues to do so today. And to be honest, that's it choice - its a religion with fixed rules, and they should stand. I'd have much more time for the stance of joejoem than I would for people who expect the church to change and conform to how they feel it should be.

Hobart

Maybe the smiley at the start of his ridiculous post was a precursor to the rest of his "idea's"?

nubbintom

Theres another smile for you.

' No one said you cant love someone, try again.
- Actually, I'm pretty sure they did'

Where is it forbidden to love someone? Do you not love someone?
Oh you mean sex, why not say sex?

'Maybe the smiley at the start of his ridiculous post was a precursor to the rest of his "idea's"?'

How is it ridiculous? because you dont agree with it? in that case the origianl post was ridiculous, because the chriatian church dont agree with that. where are my 'ridiculous ideas'?

The church should not have to change for anyone, it still amazing how with the Muslims in the middle east beheading gay people by law, that more people on here dont make a stance about that. No major religion accepts the gay life style, but of course its the fashion to mock the christian faith, and make comments about an 80 year old man who leads the religion. Hand on heart, and you dont have to believe me, ive nothing against gay people, but i dont see why the religion should have to change, or why someone is ready to denounce the religion based on one view.

wheresthebeef

i would think its because in our "progressive" world which is striving towards equality, that it is illegal to incite hatred. The church should be completely gagged as regards issues of incitement of hatred. This includes their stance on homosexuals, abortions the whole lot. They have no right to judge society as a whole or at all.

ratboy

the catholic church is criminal hate filled discrimnatory organisation which has tried to opress homosexuals for years, citing their 'condition' yet they refuse to condemn the hundred or more priests and their negligent superiors in the Ferns region, whose 'condition' of peadophilia has caused so much harm and so much trauma. How did we ever let these bastards have influence over us?

Goodshape

This story came on the news today and family members expected me to have a reaction. I don't to be honest. Couldn't care less. If this will turn a few more people away from the RCC then all is well and good.. as far as I'm concerned they are now and always have been a small minded and bigoted orginisation with their fingers in far too many pies.

They don't allow/agree with homosexuals? Who gives a ****, it's the least of their problems to be honest.

Hmm_Messiah

nubbintom wrote:

' No one said you cant love someone, try again.
- Actually, I'm pretty sure they did'

Where is it forbidden to love someone? Do you not love someone?
Oh you mean sex, why not say sex?

The church should not have to change for anyone, it still amazing how with

The RCC explicitly and implicitly, in a tradition lasting many hundreds of years, denies that a man can love another man the way he would a woman; sees any claim to do this as a disorder and perversion of what marital love is (= procreation and a mirror of Gods love) Kinda seems like forbidding any gay person to fall in love/be in love/love some one to me.
Loads of people emphasis how the RCC shouldn't get involved in what people do in their own beds etc, but less often comment on the offensive claim that our love for another is distorted and an offence to God.

Secondly would you not think the Church should "change" for its founder? to reflect his message and priorities. RCC teaches that Christ is the last revelation from God, that the story is complete. If so, every thing of importance is covered in his life/the gospels. He deals with love, with greed, with idolatry, he doesn't say anything about sex, straight , bent, or with camels! The only inference at all to "impure" people is his generosity and attention to them. The Church should change to champion justice, and celebrate and emphasis The Christian message of Love.

So endeth the lesson
PAX

joejoem

nubbintom wrote:

Hand on heart, and you dont have to believe me, ive nothing against gay people, but i dont see why the religion should have to change, or why someone is ready to denounce the religion based on one view.

One View? I didnt voice the rest of my problems with the church since I didnt think it was relevant. I still wont because I believe thats a discussion for humanities! To say that this one thing has turned me off the church would be a lie, I have been drifting from the church for years, the entire history of the RCC is smeared with blood, abuse of power and lies. There is no denying that it has provided moral guidance for generations, and it has been responsible for some good in the world, and not all of its members are 'evil' but the last time we were guided by the 'divine' waws 2005 years ago. We were given a basis for religion, and a basic set of rules and morals which have been manipulated and added to over the years by the most corrupt orginisation on the planet. Look at the history of the church, positions were not delegated by a persons service to god but by who they knew, by how much money they had, for the convenience of there superiors. Laws were added at there convenience. The Roman Catholic Church was built on a foundation given to us by the guidance of Jesus Christ and God. It slipped off those foundations shortly after. All this subject is, is another nail in the coffin.

nubbintom

Well then if you have been slipping away for years why complain? Why be concerned about a religion that has no effect on you life, religion is not a pick and mix, you cant simply choose what you want and ignore the bits that dont fit into your social life. No major religion teaches that, muslims hang gay people in the middle east, ever see a that? To far? Try Communist Cuba. Maybe you should read up on it.

'The RCC explicitly and implicitly, in a tradition lasting many hundreds of years, denies that a man can love another man the way he would a woman'

Love is love, you mean lust, two different things.

' Couldn't care less. If this will turn a few more people away from the RCC then all is well and good'

The christian faith is still the fastest growing in the world, so dont hold your breath.

'This includes their stance on homosexuals, abortions the whole lot. They have no right to judge society as a whole or at all.'

Its a religion, are they expected to ignore certain parts of society?

This was the best post -

'the catholic church is criminal hate filled discrimnatory organisation which has tried to opress homosexuals for years, citing their 'condition' yet they refuse to condemn the hundred or more priests and their negligent superiors in the Ferns region, whose 'condition' of peadophilia has caused so much harm and so much trauma. How did we ever let these bastards have influence over us?'

Kinda indicates homosexuals are peadophilias.

'the catholic church is criminal hate filled discrimnatory organisation'

So the catholic missionaries that spend their life in poverty in foreign country's helping people are 'hate filled' people?

Why ratboy, what have you done with your life that so great?

'How did we ever let these bastards have influence over us'

Whta influence do they have over you?

And once agin, people attack one religion because its accepted, if you dont like it stop complaining, its not going to change simply because a bunch of non believers wants it to change. And if you do feal so strong stop sitting a computer, why not go and make your voice heard in the real world, talk to a Priest, and when you are out there, dont forget to complain to a Jewish Rabbi, and a Muslim Cleric.

joejoem

nubbintom wrote:

Well then if you have been slipping away for years why complain? Why be concerned about a religion that has no effect on you life, religion is not a pick and mix, you cant simply choose what you want and ignore the bits that dont fit into your social life. No major religion teaches that, muslims hang gay people in the middle east, ever see a that? To far? Try Communist Cuba. Maybe you should read up on it.

Thats s silly comment. Your not addressing the issue, like it or lump it isnt a valid respose to me.

Why be concerened about a religion that has no effect on my life?
We both live in Ireland right? A country which lets a religion have a major influence still on the state? How can I ignore that?


Its human nature to question and attempt to find reasoning in things. Evolution and change are also in human nature, something that god gave us.

Hmm_Messiah

nubbintom wrote:

'The RCC explicitly and implicitly, in a tradition lasting many hundreds of years, denies that a man can love another man the way he would a woman'
Love is love, you mean lust, two different things.

The christian faith is still the fastest growing in the world, so dont hold your breath.

Are you a bit simple or something? I mean L-O-V-E, thats why I used that word. If you can't distinguish between the two...(was gonna say God help you)

btw maybe you'd benefit from getting off your pedestal, telling people what they mean is offensive, unless you don't have your full facilities.

And Islam is the fastest growing of the established faith systems, Earthbased/Pagan is the the fastest growing if you allow for all faith systems.

Oh yea Reformed Jews don't see anything wrong with homosexuality, nor does Wicca, nor do many Christian Churches. There are threads here on it if you're too lazy to inform your comments in other ways.

Your post would suggest you fit well in a concept of church that many people have grown to find repugnant, not only gay people.

And the reason the RC Church was criticised in the OP was because they published a document that was responded to. When other religions do like wise no doubt the same will occur. There was for example a significant thread here when two gay teenagers were executed in accordance with Muslim law.

So the catholic missionaries that spend their life in poverty in foreign country's helping people are 'hate filled' people?

I seem to have read in the post mention that the church of course did good, and gave guidance etc, but the example you pick is unfortunate. The complete history of missionary work is removing a communities own values and culture to "save them".

I don't mean to be rude, but if the topic is important to you you might then inform yourself on it.

PAX

joejoem

Hmm_Messiah wrote:

And Islam is the fastest growing of the established faith systems, Earthbased/Pagan is the the fastest growing if you allow for all faith systems.

Oh yea Reformed Jews don't see anything wrong with homosexuality, nor does Wicca, nor do many Christian Churches. There are threads here on it if you're too lazy to inform your comments in other ways.

I knew it! I was trying to find a link for that. Both of the above.

Boston

Blah, I was watching the news and the spokes man said "Where not interested in people into discos and the like either." Out of touch old men.

nubbintom

Oh i see, its Ok for one group, the gay community to want the church to conform to their beliefs, but its not Ok for the church to conform to theirs, Got it.

'Its human nature to question and attempt to find reasoning in things. Evolution and change are also in human nature, something that god gave us.'

How exactly is being gay evolution, if thats the case most species would have died out.

'Are you a bit simple or something? I mean L-O-V-E, thats why I used that word. If you can't distinguish between the two...(was gonna say God help you)'

No you mean sex, there is only one type of love, you just express it different ways, aka sex!!

'btw maybe you'd benefit from getting off your pedestal'

High horse? im on no high horse, i dont regard myself better than anyone else, bit dont think i wont defend my bellifs, it seems more than ok for you to.

'And Islam is the fastest growing of the established faith systems, Earthbased/Pagan is the the fastest growing if you allow for all faith systems.'

Here read this....

' 1. There are more new Christians added to the world population than any other religion on earth every day. This data makes the entire discussion about "rates of growth" irrelevant. The fact is today, that Christianity is the fastest growing religion on this most critical basis. This may change, but today, in 2004 AD, Christians take the prize for being the fastest growing religion.
2. On none of the 6 continents are Muslims the fastest growing religion.
3. That Islam is the fastest growing religion in the world is pure myth at best and at worst a deliberate deception of solid statistical facts.

Feal better?

And why is Islam a fast growing religion? -

Forced repression and wholesale annihilation of indigenous non-Muslim populations.

The highest birth rate of any religion in the world = poverty.

'Your post would suggest you fit well in a concept of church that many people have grown to find repugnant, not only gay people'

How can a religon grow 'repugnant', it is as it has always been. You just cant except it.

'I don't mean to be rude, but if the topic is important to you you might then inform yourself on it.'

Oh you are rude, i forgive you! I dont see why one part of society is allowed to mock another, and demand a 2000 year old religion conform to their lifestyle.

'Oh yea Reformed Jews don't see anything wrong with homosexuality, nor does Wicca, nor do many Christian Churches. There are threads here on it if you're too lazy to inform your comments in other ways'

Good for the Reformed jews, but heres what a Rabbia says about the Torah -

'One of the best-known Biblical verses is Leviticus 18:22 which states that male homosexuality is incorrect behavior.The Torah understanding is that people can control their behavior if they're motivated. There may be a predisposition toward homosexuality for some, but there exist many such predispositions.There are some people who were born with a greater tendency to be homosexual. It covers a wide range - some more of a tendency, some less. Everyone can overcome their tendency. But once you sanction the behavior as normal, then many borderline people will cross over into that world. Imagine a teenage boy who has had a few frustrating experiences with girls. He may now be susceptible to forging an intimate relationship with a warm and caring man. Many, in our dysfunctional society, are simply blocked in expressing normal love relationships with the opposite sex. That just means that they are chosen to perfect that part of the Torah, by overcoming their inclinations.'

Funny thing is, i havnt mocked any gay people, ive only defended my beliefs, like you have, but im being singled out? LOL

Hmm_Messiah

so you are simple then ?

what a load of bullshlt

stop f**king telling me what I mean!

How can a religon grow 'repugnant', it is as it has always been. You just cant except it.

'I don't mean to be rude, but if the topic is important to you you might then inform yourself on it.'

Oh you are rude, i forgive you! I dont see why one part of society is allowed to mock another, and demand a 2000 year old religion conform to their lifestyle.

Firstly I said that people had grown repugnant. Secondly of course religions can change/grow:- the RCC Church would not be recognised even by the early church. Thirdly you have no idea what my religious beliefs are so don't tell me what I can't accept.
stop with the TELLING people things!

No one was mocking anything, though your posts set yourself up for mockery, have you no awareness how ill-informed and ignorant you come across ?
and it's not a "lifestyle", jesus, like I said , try and inform yourself .

Re bibilical references to homosexuality, its all been done in other threads, but from a theological/scriptural point of view references in the bible to same sex acts refer to either tribal law, deviant heterosexual behaviour, or acts of inhospitality (a cherished hebrew trait), nothing to do with being gay at all. If you've not undertaken theological and scriptural study then maybe accept the word of some one who has.

You are doing yourself and your "religion" a disservice by the rubbish you're coming out with !

nubbintom

'so you are simple then ?

what a load of bullshlt

stop f**king telling me what I mean!'

LOL im not telling you 'what you mean' im sure you have enough to do that yourself. LOL

'Firstly I said that people had grown repugnant'

No you said..

'Your post would suggest you fit well in a concept of church that many people have grown to find repugnant, not only gay people'

See you said 'the concept of the church' has grown repugant. Try mean what you say, keep up.

'No one was mocking anything, though your posts set yourself up for mockery'

How? because im will to defend my religion, thats the bare bones here, someones criticise the catholic faith, you all join in, plain and simple.

'ignorant you come across ? '

Explain how? Because my views dont match yours?

'Thirdly you have no idea what my religious beliefs are so don't tell me what I can't accept.
stop with the TELLING people things!'

Show me where ive discussed your religious beliefs, ive never told anyone what they can and cant accept, and im not going to start with you.

'You are doing yourself and your "religion" a disservice by the rubbish you're coming out with'

Rubbish? Im not the one cursing and daming others.

'and it's not a "lifestyle",'

Heres what lifestyle means
' A way of life or style of living that reflects the attitudes and values of a person or group'

So being gay isnt a lifestyle? or is being a priest not a lifestyle? make up yor mind.

You seem very confused and quite angry, cheer up! Till next time...

FX Meister

JoeJoem
communion these days doesn't mean much to kids anyway. It's all about the clothes and money. Fair enough if you sister makes this choice. But will she still keep her faith and instill this faith in her kids? It's easy to send kids to mass but harder to teach them about christianity yourself, it takes more time and effort.

On the whole I think the church are making a bad move. I guess the see that being gay isn't natural, which it isn't, but they are not accepting that it is normal and apadting the church to reflect this.

Sapien

It is a commonplace device used by conservatives, especially in the defence of the Roman Catholic Church, to point out that whatever it does, it has ever done so. Why is the fact that the church has not changed in centuries seen to be a virtue?

Hmm_Messiah

nubbintom wrote:

stop f**king telling me what I mean!'

LOL im not telling you 'what you mean' im sure you have enough to do that yourself. LOL

'Firstly I said that people had grown repugnant'

No you said..

'Your post would suggest you fit well in a concept of church that many people have grown to find repugnant, not only gay people'

See you said 'the concept of the church' has grown repugant. Try mean what you say, keep up.

'Thirdly you have no idea what my religious beliefs are so don't tell me what I can't accept.
stop with the TELLING people things!'

Show me where ive discussed your religious beliefs, ive never told anyone what they can and cant accept, and im not going to start with you.

...

I said " ..people have grown to find repugnant, " P E O P L E can you not read english, you were corrected and still insist on misreading...even while quoting me verbatim

How can a religon grow 'repugnant', it is as it has always been. You just cant except it.

this is where you "discussed my religious belief", I explained it in the same sentence, you don't know my beliefs so how'd you know what I do or don't accept. can you not understand at least what you yourself said if not others.

your ignorance was amusing, but your inability to string a few sentences together coherently makes it pointless to try respond

diem perdidi
"suffer little children"- indeed

homah_7ft

I would have thought it common knowledge that the Roman Catholic church isn't exactly the most pro-homosexual organisation. Why be part of an institution that thinks this way? If it's a matter of choice then don't tacitly accept it. Obviously this doesn't take into account the seperation of church and state but I believe that's something to be debated on it's own merits.

nubbintom

LOL, you seem to grow more demented by each passinng post...:)

'I said " ..people have grown to find repugnant, " P E O P L E can you not read english, you were corrected and still insist on misreading...even while quoting me verbatim'

here we go again you stated in your original post-

'Your post would suggest YOU fit well in a CONCEPT OF CHURCH that many PEOPLE HAVE GROWN TO FIND REPUGNANT.'

Then you backtracked 'I said that people had grown repugnant'

No,you said people and grown to find the church repugnant.

'this is where you "discussed my religious belief", I explained it in the same sentence, you don't know my beliefs so how'd you know what I do or don't accept. can you not understand at least what you yourself said if not others

I never singled out your religion, you never told me,so how could i tell you what to believe? I stated what the catholic church believes, nothing more.

'your ignorance was amusing, but your inability to string a few sentences together coherently makes it pointless to try respond'

My ignorance? your complaining because the religion wont execpt your beliefs. Your one funny guy.

This farce that is the gay orginisation and the others that follow like it. I look forward to the day of its demise.

Sapien

nubbintom wrote:

This farce that is the gay orginisation and the others that follow like it. I look forward to the day of its demise.

What is the gay organisation? And why do you look forward to its demise?