Bankroll Management

Davey Devil

I stumbled across this piece written by Stephan McLean on antesup. I've never met Stephan but I have heard he's an excellent poker player. However I'm not so sure his advice on br management is entirely sound. Have a read.

There is a secret…….The only reason I know the reality behind this secret is because I have spent most of my life around all sorts of betting. Its something that every poker player needs to realise, here it is…You can be the best poker player in the world and play great poker for a million years, but you are by no means guaranteed of making any cash, ever.

Throughout the course of your poker playing life it is possible that you can invest your money in games that present the most likely winning possibilities against the most feeble players and never win a cent. Its not likely but it is possible.

I have been reading a little on the subject of bankroll management lately and I don’t like what some people have to say on it. The traditional article seems to entail lots of ‘%’ and ‘€’ signs and phrases like “stop loss” and maybe even “quit while you’re ahead” but not this one.

My advice is this; It is up to you to decide.

It is up to you to decide if its worth paying €350 into an event, when all the money you have in your pocket is €350. There are many questions you will ask yourself, like is this a profitable investment and do I have a real chance of winning? But only you and you alone can decide if you want to live with the consequences of losing that €350. There is no mathematical rule that can tell you if it’s the right thing to do.

If you can spend more time focussing on playing good poker and making the right decisions and less on counting the dollars and cents then your game can only improve. Of course it is a bad idea to risk your entire bankroll on one tournament but even if you did you should always be confident that you can bounce back.

Money comes and goes and the only reason you earn it, after all, is to spend it. Or as the old adage says; “’It is better to spend money like there’s no tomorrow than to spend tonight like there’s no money!”

In tournament poker you pay a buy-in and the last person at the last table is the winner. Its as simple as that. As long as that buy-in is within your means and you feel confident that you are a profitable player in the long run then why would you ever want to ration your participation as so many professionals advocate?

The point of playing poker is to compete, not to make money. I’m not saying you should go crazy and blow all your hard earned currency but if you compete at the highest level available to you and do your very best then you probably will make money. That’s all the bankroll management you should need.

Maybe the article is directed at the most casual players but even so I'd recommend all players to have some sort of bankroll management in place.

As long as that buy-in is within your means and you feel confident that you are a profitable player in the long run then why would you ever want to ration your participation as so many professionals advocate?

Probably because you will most likely never make a profit out of the game unless you get a big result very quickly but since competing is the only thing that matters I guess it's a sound stategy.

The point of playing poker is to compete, not to make money.

Lafortezza

The key thing here is "risk of ruin".
If you lodge $200 into a poker site and begin playing $1/$2 NL then you can be pretty sure that you will bust out before you earn the $6000 that might be considered a reasonable bankroll for this level.
Even if you're the best player at the table, you can get outdrawn, play badly, or just run into a better hand. If you've only got $200 then it's time to get out the credit card again. If you've got $6k then you can rebuy and rebuy and eventually get into profit again when variance stops kicking your ass.

The majority of people beginning to play poker don't want to have to keep reloading from their credit card. One way to do this is to lodge an amount of money and then play at stakes that don't significantly threaten this money.
Lodge a few hundred, and then play on the $25 buy-in tables. If you're a better player than average you should gradually increase your bankroll even if you lose a buy-in here or there.


Then again. Some people have a dedicated poker bankroll that they never put under pressure because they don't play for stakes that threaten it. Some people treat their weekly/monthly paycheck like their bankroll. They'll go to the Fitz and sit into a cash game with a weeks wages. As Stephen's article said

My advice is this; It is up to you to decide.

Each to their own and all that.

The point of playing poker is to compete, not to make money. I’m not saying you should go crazy and blow all your hard earned currency but if you compete at the highest level available to you and do your very best then you probably will make money.

If poker is all about competing then log on and play the 1c/2c tables, play the freerolls and giveaways. Why play at higher levels when it isn't about money?

Davey Devil

I suppose it's a question of what you want from the game. I would have thought that if you want to take it seriously, having some sort of br management is a must.

Even looking at it from a casual players point of view baring in mind this is aimed at beginners;

I’m not saying you should go crazy and blow all your hard earned currency but if you compete at the highest level available to you and do your very best then you probably will make money.

How can beginners expect to make money at the highest level available to them? I suppose if you don't mind losing the money it's fine but to say they will probably make money, well how many winning beginners do you know?

NickyOD

I met and played with Stephen a few times recently and he's a very, very nice guy and an exceptional player. But.. I agree with you Dave, the article doesn't bare any resemblence to a proper bankroll managemnt strategy, and telling people to risk whatever they feel like is certainly bad advice. In his defence I think its more of a sign of the talent he is, because he's just the kind of guy you could give a bankroll of €500 to, who would risk it all in one event and end up winning it.

Hectorjelly

Pretty bad advice IMO

RuggieBear

think i'll stick to my $2 mtt's

RoundTower

Barry Greenstein has some similar advice in his book. I haven't got it with me now but the gist of it is "If it looks like a good game, get into it if you have even one minimum buyin. If you go broke someone will lend you money and you can get back in action."

Bananna man

From www.irishpokeronline.com

Bank Roll considerations depend on what your intentions and goals are for your poker play. If you are a beginner and want to try out the game then only invest an amount which you can afford to lose. The amount should be equal to any amount you would spend on any other form of entertainment.

For serious players who are winning at a particular level and want to have a sufficient roll to withstand bad runs there is more thought required. For limit games you should have no less than 250 big bets as your bank roll for that limit. If you play 5/10 then you should have no less than $2500 to sit in that game and be comfortable of not losing your entire roll on a bad run. When you sit at a table, sitting with 40 big bets at a time is quite sufficient, so at the 5/10 level buying in for $400 each session is what you should be looking at.

If you play No Limit then you should have 20 buy ins in your roll for the level you play. So if you play in a 1/2 $200 buy in game then you should have $4000. Also any serious player who aims to make the most money will always buy into a NL game at the maximum buy in. They realize they have an edge over their opponents and want to be paid the maximum amount when they hit their hands. A big stack is also powerful when making moves on players.

If you play only Sit and Go Tournaments then you should have an amount equal to 25 buy ins before you attempt to make a serious run at making money at these. You must be able to withstand a bad run of cards as well as some of the unlucky streaks that come with playing in tournaments. So if you play at the 5+1 level, then you need $150 to be comfortable.

Keeping records of your sessions is very important. You want to know figures, places you play, days you play and hours you play. You may find a pattern where a particular site or casino is better for you, or that a particular day is no good for you. All the information you have about your play is valuable.

RoundTower

Bananna man wrote:

From www.irishpokeronline.com

Who wrote this? I think this kind of blanket advice is bad.

NickyOD

RoundTower wrote:

Who wrote this? I think this kind of blanket advice is bad.

I don't think its bad advice, just very vague.Also 250 Big Bets is nowhere near enough of a bankroll for limit holodem. For 10/20 shorthanded try 1000 BBs.

carfax

Well Dave it was great to read what you had to say about that article. But you were wrong about two things. Firstly, we have met a couple of times and secondly I'm not an exceptional poker player by any means. But I too have heard that you are an excellent player.

I think your opinion is fair as were all of the posts. (I've been worried about it non-stop since I heard a thread was started).

In the article itself I think that I was really only trying to say that having spent most of my life around a lot of betting and other forms of competition the fact is that you are never guaranteed of a win, no matter how hard you try.

I am not the most careful person when it comes to money nor am I wasteful. I do however believe that those who are willing to risk the most -be it money or anything else- deserve the most reward.

See you at a table soon,
Stephen Mc Lean.

P.S. Thanks nicky for the kind remarks but you fairly well trounced me up in the Clarion Hotel, Sligo tournament yesterday so I don't feel any better.

Davey Devil

Lol. We will both have to disagree. I feel like a donkey lately
Also I'm more Jack Charlton than Luke Ivory when it comes to putting names to faces, you'll have to introduce yourself.

Just to ensure you understand, I didn't post it up to try provoke any bad feeling. I posted it here because I wanted other opinions of whether my thoughts on it were much different to others. It's nothing to worry about, just a different thought process when it comes to game selection. I didn't think it was great advice for beginners, I'd be in favour of a more cautious disciplined approach. However we are all entitled to our opinions and I hope I haven't put you off writting some more.

Best Of Luck.