Is this unfair

PeterJL

I become quite frustrated because my wife's libido/sex drive has
apart from a short honeymoon period in our marriage been very
low. She knows that I find it tough and on occasions she has
said that she doesn't know why I stay with her. I try to brush
that aside and I do tell her I love her. For the record (I've said
it in another thread) we make love about 1 time per month
on average. This is actually an improved situation compared to
a time where I actually gave up trying to approach her for
intimacy because I knew in my heart she would refuse. It led
to well over a year of no intimacy.

Anyway.. all of this aside we have 2 great small kids and
I know from some things she has hinted at lately and given
her age (late 30's) that she is going to bring up the idea of
having a third child sometime soon. We've not really discussed
it seriously until now. Even though I love her and love the kids
and in principle would be prepared to love any future offspring
there is another thing I have to bear in mind. That fact is
that I remember so clearly that when she approached me
about the idea of having our first child she approached me
at a time when she had ignored my sexual needs to a large
extent for months and months before that. Cruel as it
might seem I really believe she "buttered me up" in terms
of promising things would be better if we tried for a child.
Indeed I am so proud of that first child and from that point
of view she was correct. However, I still at the back of my
mind feel she teased me and I am deeply suspicious when it
comes down to it that she is using intimacy and sex as
a carrot and stick. Fundamentally I feel that if I were to
agree to a third child that I would be used.

My point is that once she seems to want a child her interest
in me peaks. It seems like she will only really get wild and
horny when there seems to be something very much in it
for her. Am I being unfair to even consider this as a possibility?

any comments ?
advice?

P.

LegacyUser

Hi,

I have just posted something similar without seeing your message beforehand. After reading your message I was totally stunned. I now believe I am in the very same situation as yourself except we actually have a third child on the way. I just can't believe I didn't see it this way without actually seeing it in writing from someone else. I can actually relate to everything you have written this post.

Your post is very well written and I really know how you feel. Best of luck.

savoyard

You need to sit down and discuss this honestly and openly with your wife. If she won't, you should go to counselling, either individually or together.

You need to say that you are not happy with the level of sexual activity in your marriage and that you think that the only time she wants sex is when she wants to conceive.

Without opening the discussion, you'll get nowhere. As to what is "right" and "wrong" different couples have different needs. From what I hear, it is totally normal for couples with young children to have infrequent sex due to exhaustion if nothing else. I've also discovered that a couple I thought I knew well haven't had sex in 2 years. I've been with my partner for 10 years and if things are rough at work or we're stressed, we might go a few weeks. Some couples have sex once a day, others once a month and 'droughts' aren't abnormal is long term relationships .What matters is what's right for you.

I read the other thread, but I don't remember you saying that you have acutally discussed it with your wife. You need to be open and honest with her and try and find out why she seems to link sex with children only. You may not like the answers, but your wife is the only one that can give them to you.

Beruthiel

PeterJL wrote:

IHowever, I still at the back of my
mind feel she teased me and I am deeply suspicious when it
comes down to it that she is using intimacy and sex as
a carrot and stick. Fundamentally I feel that if I were to
agree to a third child that I would be used.

have you spoken to her about this?
if not, you need to air your feelings with her, honestly and calmly.
sex once a month is out of the question imo, I understand that being a parent is hard and tiring work, but once a month!? :eek:
ask her does she need more help with the kids in order for her to be rested enough to want sex, perhaps giving her time for a warm, candle light bath before bed, to get her in the mood...
'mood' can be very important for a woman.
I understand that in a long term relationship, you are no longer doing it twice a night, but seriously, surely you should be doing it at least 2/3 times a week.
would there be any point in going to talk to a professional?

BoozyBabe

PeterJL, I really do feel sorry for you, as does everyone else who give you pages & pages of advice in your last post which was about the EXACT same issue!!!

What more can we tell you that we haven't already told you?

Why not just read over your last thread to refresh your memory about all the suggestions.

Miss Fluff

As Boozybabe said, this was covered extensively in your post three weeks ago.

PeterJL

I was the OP of another thread which covered very much of the same
ground I am enquiring about in this thread except now I am zoning
in on what I anticipate might happen in coming months/weeks (i.e
my wife may become broody and the whole cycle of her being suddenly
attentive to me after the "drought" might be the spectre.

I've discussed the whole issue of our differing needs in the past with
my dear wife but she becomes very defensive once she realises the
topic involves sex in any way. Usually she tries to back off the whole
discussion by making me feel bad for having raised the issue in the
first place. What has really gotten me frustrated is the fact that
when I look back over our marriage which has had ups and downs
(and a good deal of ups too) the sexual part of marriage seems to
have been mostly something which I now (unfortunately) have begun
to believe or realise is something she has tended to play as a
means of getting her own way in situations. I am not even for one
moment suggesting she has done this in a deliberate or devious
way. I think it has become a habit.

The real thing I'm trying to figure out though is how I discuss
this with her. The whole prospect of her sidling up to me and
asking about a third child is a tough one for me. Just like cidoma
I love the kids, love her intensely, etc. However, this is a tough
one because it is difficult to express to someone who is very
defensive the fact that you would not agree to a third child
because I genuinely think habit or deliberate that sex or lack
of it has become a control thing for her and she knows that
I have been whipped into submission on that in the past (funny
comments aside).

I've done a hell of a lot in terms of being much more involved in
the home. So much in fact that you would be stunned to know
how I have made sacrafices in terms of my work and how I
now contribute at home. One thing I do notice is that she always
makes herself busy no matter how much I try to help at home
and I've begun to think that it is even habit with her to
over-work in order to be tired in order that she always has
the control as to when we might make love. So bang goes
the spontaneity.

As far as counselling goes - I mentioned that to her about 2-3 yrs
ago just after we came out of a long ~2 yr intimacy drought
and she refused. She said I could go if I wanted to but she made
it sound like she just wanted to get "off the hook" and she was
trying to make me think I had it all wrong.

-P

Beruthiel

PeterJL wrote:

I She said I could go if I wanted to but she made
it sound like she just wanted to get "off the hook" and she was
trying to make me think I had it all wrong.

seems to me that you two have some serious communication problems

savoyard

Peter, can I suggest trying another forum? Maybe one that's used mostly by women? Try ivillage.co.uk - there's a few threads in their relationship boards about this issue. I get the impression that most people on here are male / in their teens or twenties and despite good intentions, really won't be able to understand your situation or your wife's.

From what you say, your wife has gone off sex or was never really into it in the first place. Maybe she only sees you as the father of her kids now, or maybe she just doesn't really like sex. Maybe she is perfectly happy with the amount of sex you're having and thinks your demands are excessive.

What you could do, is take control yourself and say you don't want any more kids until you sort out the problems in your relationship. If she wants sex, great, but use contraception. She can't get pregnant on her own. I don't think it is manipulative to refuse her requests for a child when your marriage is obviously in difficulty.

Beruthiel

savoyard wrote:

What you could do, is take control yourself and say you don't want any more kids until you sort out the problems in your relationship. If she wants sex, great, but use contraception. She can't get pregnant on her own. I don't think it is manipulative to refuse her requests for a child when your marriage is obviously in difficulty.

I would be inclined to agree, having another baby right now will only make the whole issue worse, it does need to be addressed first

The Corinthian

A genuine question. Do the posters in this situation not notice the difference in libido and consider the implications before getting married?

PeterJL

Reasonable question Corinthian.

In our case .. she wanted a "white wedding". However, we actually did
share a lot of intimate pleasure using handiwork in the year or so before
getting married and bizarrely as it may seem that was probably the
most intense intimacy we had for any sustained period of time.
So on one hand you could be judgemental and say because she didn't
want to proceed to full sex until the night of marriage that I should
have read the signs by that. However, it was more mixed signals
than that. In fact she even admitted in one of our rare and difficult
discussions on this that she was more "racy" in those days.
I think racy meaning that she let me cum on her chest and she
would get into the bed naked giving me the clear signal that she
wanted to make love. All of that is gone now unfortunately.
Sorry though it may seem she comes to bed in PJs all the time now
and I end up having to double guess what time of the month it
is and probe to see if she is in the mood nowadays.
For what I'd do for her to jump on me again. It just doesn't happen
that way any more.

So - in my case it was (pre-marriage) high libido,.honeymoon (1yr on)
high libido , then a very noticeable decline and very sharp and
shortlived peaks in libido when she approached and got me to accept having children followed by extreme low libido for years only ressurected by
me bringing it up as a major issue for our relationship.

Hope that helps.

-P

elliebn

Have a similar problem only its my boyfriend with the low libido, we've been together for about 6 years and for the first 2 it was great and would have sex as often as we could. we didn't live together at the time so when all of a sudden it was on tap every day it didn't seem as important. i'm 30 and he's 33 and on average we would have sex once a month, i would like it more and he's not that bothered and its always me that initiates it, i'm just happy that we have sex at all, there are so many other things about him that i love and i don't want to focus just on the sex or it will become a problem when it really isn't i won't look elsewhere for sex because i love him more than sex.:)

For the Corinthian, i don't think you can tell at the start of a relationship how someone's libido will be later on down the road.

PeterJL

I don't know if this is a useful facet of the issue in our relationship but
I thought I'd share it.

I remember when I used to travel as part of work maybe 3 times per
year maximum for a 1week stint or 10 days max.
It is about 5-6yrs ago and I don't do that travelling any more.
However, I remember clearly that my wife was always horny when
I returned. I don't know how to interpret that as I look back on it.
However, it seems like she is being complacent in that she doesn't
know what she hasn't got until she can't have it.

Maybe some females can throw more light on this ?
Maybe its a normal pattern ?

I remember it clearly because for those years it was the one
nice thing about going away abroad. At least I knew that if
I hadn't been intimate with my wife for 6-8 weeks that she
would be all open arms for me when I returned.

-P

The Corinthian

Thanks for your frankness Peter. The main thing that strikes me about your relationship is that a lot is left unsaid - she avoids discussions on sex and you double guess her feelings. That can’t be right.

elliebn wrote:

For the Corinthian, i don't think you can tell at the start of a relationship how someone's libido will be later on down the road.

I’m not suggesting you can tell at the start of a relationship, but then again I wouldn’t propose at the start of a relationship either.

savoyard

Maybe she simply isn't attracted to you in that way. Sorry, but there it is. You might be a good husband in other ways and she's happy with all the other parts of your relationship together. You can love someone without being turned on by them and for many women, it's hard to have sex with someone you're not attracted to.

You have to talk to her and you have to decide whether or not you are willing to stay in your marriage with the current levels of sex.

PeterJL

I'm of course willing to take any reason on board.
However, if that were the case well my opinion would be as follows.

I'd really think that any women who is prepared to have children
with a man (at their initial suggestion) and isn't really sexually
attracted to the man is actually deceiving the man unless for
some reason it is some kind of agreed marriage of convenience.

I can't get my head around how a woman would somehow find
out she was not really sexually attracted to a man and knowing
that use his body as a means to get pregnant and reconcile
that with a happy marriage. It sounds all wrong to me.
Maybe I'm being naive.

I'm not saying this is the case with my wife. I've still not
drawn any conclusions with her and it would be dangerous
for me to do so based on answers to a thread but I'm
just looking for angles here.

-P

savoyard wrote:

Maybe she simply isn't attracted to you in that way. Sorry, but there it is. You might be a good husband in other ways and she's happy with all the other parts of your relationship together. You can love someone without being turned on by them and for many women, it's hard to have sex with someone you're not attracted to.

You have to talk to her and you have to decide whether or not you are willing to stay in your marriage with the current levels of sex.

Pataman

Its reading threads like this that should make us all realise us happily married people how lucky we are.
Have you considered she could be having an affair and doesnt want to leave because of the kids. Lack of sex is generally a symptom of a problem elsewhere, and in your case it seems to be a communication problem.

PeterJL

Yes,

I've considered lots of things Pataman.

- possibility of an affair (present or past)
- possibility of her having suffered some (even minor) abusive past incident
- possibililty she is now/never has been fully sexually attracted to me
- possibility that her personality requires that she is in control
- possibility that her parents very conservative beliefs have become more dominant as role models and taken root as she has become a married person.
- possibility that she doesn't enjoy sex (although I know she does the majority
of times and is pretty straight up about that and is honest enough to say
when she hasn't been able to climax)
- possibility that poor body image is at the root of it.

In terms of the affair I'm pretty convinced there hasn't been anything.
To be fair to her work/home commitments would have made that
hard for her and there is nothing odd that made me think twice that
something might be going on with anyone in her work or social circle.

I'm more of the impression that she has low libido and happens at
the same time to be awkward about sex because of her upbringing
so that makes it hard for her to accept that it might be something
she could check at a doctors ,etc. i.e she doesn't seem to step
back and see it as a broader health issue. I get the impression
she prefers to have the whole sex and frequency of sex completely
within her control and to even admit there was an issue to
a doctor would probably be a loss of that control. Again this
is double guessing because she is not very open about it and
I don't ever believe I get the full story.

-P

savoyard

PeterJL wrote:

I can't get my head around how a woman would somehow find
out she was not really sexually attracted to a man and knowing
that use his body as a means to get pregnant and reconcile
that with a happy marriage. It sounds all wrong to me.
Maybe I'm being naive.
-P

She was a virgin when she married you? Maybe she doesn't know what being sexually attractive to someone is? Maybe she was at the start and now she just sees you as a good provider? There's lots of evidence of men thinking of the women they marry only as the mother of their children and not as sexual beings once they have a few kids - why wouldn't it work the other way with women? Lots of people stay together "for the kids", for financial security, for fear of divorce. As I'm sure you know, there's a lot more to a marriage than sex. Ever hear the expression, "I love you, but I'm not in love with you"? And surely you've heard men complain about how their partner only wanted a baby and not them?

PeterJL wrote:

I'm not saying this is the case with my wife. I've still not
drawn any conclusions with her and it would be dangerous
for me to do so based on answers to a thread but I'm
just looking for angles here.
-P

Exactly - you need to talk to your wife. We can only throw out random suggestions. We don't know you, we don't know your wife, most of us are a lot younger than you and cannot concieve of someone getting married without having sex first, never mind figure out how many times a week we'd want sex after having 2 kids.

You won't be able to draw the right conclusions without talking to your wife.

The Clown Man

In fairness, you have said it all yourself and have gone to some lengths to explain your position, your feelings and your worries.

I think it's fairly obvious from your posts that your wife doesn't know the half of what you have told a bunch of annonamous aliases.

You need to tell her what you have said here. No point us giving you advice when the problem lies in the clear lack of communication between you and your wife regarding the subject. Obviously either you or your wife has a serious problem discussing this kind of stuff.

Maybe print out all that you have said here and leave it for her. Or write her something. Jesus find some way to innitiate the conversation so that she does not run away and that you get everything you want to say out.

I'm sure she'll have her side too but you need to find a way of dragging this out and beating it round a while till you're both happy with it. Stop sitting on your ass about it cause if it is annoying you now think of what it will be like in 10 years.

Beruthiel

PeterJL wrote:

I However, I remember clearly that my wife was always horny when I returned. I don't know how to interpret that as I look back on it.

she clearly missed you while you were away, hence her being happy and ready for some action on your return

UnrealQueen

A lot of women go off sex completely after having a child. Could that be it?

PeterJL

Hi UnrealQueen :

It probably was a factor at some point in time.
However, our youngest is 3yrs old now and there has
only been a very marginal improvement in things.

Also before our first son was born for maybe a year or
year and a half if not more we had very little intimacy.
maybe having sex about 8 times in the year. It was
actually the way she approached having him that
makes me think now in retrospect that the main times
she has been wanting to "hop on me" have been
specifically when there is something big in it for her
and that is a pretty hard thing to take on board.
I thought marriage was meant to be about both people
being there for *each other*. I don't in any way
regret our decision to have a child. It was just the
circumstances that bother me (and I've never told
her that because I know it would pain her).

The other thing which I find hard is that I understand
a woman may have a lack of drive for various reasons
but it seems like an eternity when I felt that she stepped
outside of her lack of need and tended to
my needs at bedtime. I've heard of some women
who at least don't lose the awareness that their husband
might be suffering from a lack of full sex so they at
least might cuddle up to them once in a while and
perhaps (sorry to be crude) help them masturbate or
whatever just to ensure that they aren't giving signals
that they've completely lost interest in him.

It is a lonely place to be for a man when he finds he
knows his hand better than his partner (sorry to be crude)
and I am not excessively masturbating by any stretch
of the imagination. I'm just working off the frustration
to be honest and I avoid adult movies, etc. I'm trying
to be true to my marriage...


-P

UnrealQueen wrote:

A lot of women go off sex completely after having a child. Could that be it?

UnrealQueen

Hi, i feel bad for you and your wife. It sounds to me like she has either some seriously deep emotional problems regarding sex, which is she does she really needs to talk to somebody. Or else she's just not interested in sex at all. I know she was at one stage but sex really doesn't matter to some people, mainly women i suppose. I've read about loads of married couples who have had completely celibate relationships for reasons of their own because one or both of them just don't like it.

tonyinuae

IMO, for what it's worth, you definitely both need some counselling. These issues are bigger than both of you. If you haven't been able to talk about the problem in a way that would solve it by now, then you're not going to be able to without outside help.

I think it is very unfair on a partner whose spouse will only have sex very rarely. That there may be differences in libido, fine, but not that extreme. Not to want sex more than once a month or even less (a year, did you say?) is certainly not normal. There is a problem here, and a professional might be able to get to the root of it.

If she refuses to go to a good counsellor with you, she's being selfish and dishonest. And not very loyal or loving. If she wants her marriage to work for both of you, not just her, she has no choice but to face her fears and go.

I believe that she knows deep down she would be made to face issues she doesn't want to face, and that's why she doesn't want to go, but if she had the courage and honesty to admit it was needed, she herself, and not just her marriage, could benefit greatly from the experience.

Tigress

I too am in my thirties have 3 kids youngest been 3 mths. I was too like your wife maybe but you know what I learned to communcate with my husband. It has brought us closer. Sometimes we cannot read each others minds on these matters so it is imporant to communicate Kids can ake the Za Za Zou you had when you first met. Its hard work but your firststep is to communicate. Good Luck!

Tigress

-P[/QUOTE]


I have to say my libido increase after the birth of my sons in the inital weeks following delivery. Something to do with hoemones I think. The Pill may I add can have a serious affect on a womans libdo I know.

PeterJL

Tigress,

Thanks for sharing that. I've trawled some other
boards where there are married folk to get to
the bottom of this..

I do think communication is a big key with all of this.
Unfortunately that seems to be an uphill battle in our
case because my dear wife has not responded favourably
before when trying to speak openly together about sexual
needs, desires, etc. I think it may have something to do
with her background (conservative). I've noticed she
seems more relaxed to talk (if sparingly) about stuff like
that after we've just done the business (sorry to put it
that way). Its as if her system is reminded just about
then that making love with her husband is one of the
more healthy things one can do. Hard to explain but
that's a summary.

One thing - in her case she has never used the pill so
that is not a factor. We've used condoms.
Right at the moment things seem to be a bit better but
it is always hard to tell. Since things usually take a month
or thereabout to stir up and I'm not inclined once it
happens to get fussed about the fact it took so long
to happen I kind of forget the frustration I had the
previous month waiting for us to get it together again.
Some would say I should be happy enough with once
a month given we have 2 kids,etc. I guess it is a personal
thing.

The other issue is a more delicate one. It is the sanitary
sex thing. Basically she seems to have adopted a way
of doing (or not) doing things so that basically we
don't engage in anything any more where there is
any witnessing of my ejaculation. It is something that
bothers me. Sounds odd. I don't think a man can realise
how important that is in a longterm relationship until
it is taken away from him. I read something somewhere
about permissiveness. From what I've observed
my wife needs to be firmly in the control seat from
the point of view of what happens and she sees if
I even suggest things that the control is being taken
away from her. I could be wrong.. but this is how it feels...

I wish I could sit down with her sensitively and have
her listen to my concerns about that. However, I did
try before and I felt sorry I even tried to raise it.

Tigress wrote:

I too am in my thirties have 3 kids youngest been 3 mths. I was too like your wife maybe but you know what I learned to communcate with my husband. It has brought us closer. Sometimes we cannot read each others minds on these matters so it is imporant to communicate Kids can ake the Za Za Zou you had when you first met. Its hard work but your firststep is to communicate. Good Luck!

LegacyUser

You are a very lucky man, Peter

What a wonderful marriage, and wife!
Begetting your children is your natural purpose.
You are greatly honored that she wants yours.

BobTheBeat

Unregistered wrote: »

You are a very lucky man, Peter

What a wonderful marriage, and wife!
Begetting your children is your natural purpose.
You are greatly honored that she wants yours.

Your quasi religious statement there, although a wonderful concept a beuatifully put is completely unhelpful to the OP's situation. Its simply putting blinkers on the idea of marriage and the intrinsic relationship between two people and not allowing it to develop into all the ways it should, outside of religion and god.

Peter, I really do feel for you. Its a most uneviable situation you are in and I commend your calmness to this point. Your wife is lucky you have this in abundance.

I find it highly unusual that she does not allow the act of ejaculation to happen in front of her. Its a perfectly natural thing, one which she had no problem with before you were married.

It sounds to me that she is adopting some conservative religious values and is applying them to the relationship i.e. abstinence and the act of only permitting penetrative sex where a pregnancy is intended. The fact that she only allows sex a number of times a year sounds like an appeasement for your frustrations.Even further, her refusal to 'witness' the ejaculation could be her shutting out or ignoring the fact that you are not having a child through this process.

Is it possible that she has taken on these values or views through religious committments to herself? Just a thought.

The very best of luck to you with this.

missyb

This may sound trivial,but is there any chance your wife is taking the pill? I know it often affects womens sex drive and some women to a huge extent, is a very common side affect. When she wants to get pregnant she comes off the pill and her sex drive returns, hence her sudden interest again, its just a thought.

shellyboo

missyb wrote: »

This may sound trivial,but is there any chance your wife is taking the pill? I know it often affects womens sex drive and some women to a huge extent, is a very common side affect. When she wants to get pregnant she comes off the pill and her sex drive returns, hence her sudden interest again, its just a thought.

The OP already addressed this... two years ago, when this thread was started. I presume his issue is now resolved.