24 hour Bus lanes

Just The One

I know that there is one on the Navan Road but just can't think of where else they are.


There are loads but my mind has gone blank - anyone let me know of others please.

Bluetonic

In County Dublin -> Dublin Airport R132 Roundabout to Collinstown Cross, Cloghran is one more example of such.

Hagar

Wahoo. We're getting a 24 hour bus service. Aren't we? Waddya mean no?

strassenwolf

The N11 Stillorgan Road. There is a 24 hour bus lane south from about the Newtownpark Avenue/Stillorgan Road junction out to about Wyattville Road. I'm not sure what the position is from Donnybrook Church out to that junction, though I don't think it's all 24 hours.

I don't travel along that road much but a while ago I did notice the signs up for a 24 hour bus lane along the stretch between about Newtownpark Avenue and Wyattville Road, as it had been freshly done up with a nice cycle lane, different coloured road surface in the bus lane, etc.

I only noticed it because it puzzled me. Are we going to have round-the-clock buses?

Alun

There are some on the N11. It's all a bit haphazard though with some being 24hr and others not, with no apparent pattern. In fact on the bus lane just before Cornelscourt heading North, the same bus lane changes from being non-24hr, to 24hr and back to non-24hr within the space of about 200m (if you believe the signs, that is.)

egan007

Yes 24 hour buslanes are a complete waste of time....

I've started using the bus lane (regular 7:30 to 1900) on the malahide road in the mornings to get to work. I don't see the point of a completely empty lane. Some planner needs to look at a more efficient use of this empty network of roads through Dublin.
Before anyone has a go, I don't care - Join me and get to work in no time!

Bluetonic

egan007 wrote:

Before anyone has a go, I don't care - Join me and get to work in no time!

I gotta agree with you.

The possibility of being hit with a 35 euro fine once in a bule moon is far outweighted by the advantages of using them.

*sorry garda, I'm trying to pull in up here as I feel unwell*

Trampas

Chapelizord bypass is another one and the only buses that go on that are the Xpresso bus and not a regular service

egan007

Bluetonic wrote:

I gotta agree with you.

The possibility of being hit with a 35 euro fine once in a bule moon is far outweighted by the advantages of using them.

*sorry garda, I'm trying to pull in up here as I feel unwell*

Is that all it is!
Wow i feel even better about it now

MicraBoy

There is a section of 24hr bus lane on the N4 around Lucan too.

I can't see the point of these at all. Plus usually they are only a short distance in an otherwise 7.00-19.00 bus lane which is just confusing.

John R

Trampas wrote:

Chapelizord bypass is another one and the only buses that go on that are the Xpresso bus and not a regular service

And every coach service heading for the west and south.

loyatemu

bus lanes are there to get buses past traffic. Sure, at times when there's no traffic there's no need to have them, but by extension theres no need for cars to use them either if the rest of the road is clear. Its simpler to have them 24 hours, there's less scope for confusion and debate with traffic cops.

On the N11 the section from foxrock to donnybrook is 0700-1900 because parts of the buslane used to be a 3rd regular lane, so this is given back to regular traffic off-peak. the buslane from foxrock to loughlinstown used to be hard-shoulder so it was never available to cars before and is 24hrs now.

I agree though that buslanes shouldn't be there on roads with no regular bus service.

Hagar

loyatemu wrote:

by extension theres no need for cars to use them either if the rest of the road is clear

Unless the bus lane is in the hard shoulder, it is most likely using the inner lane on the road.
Surely cars must use the inner lane where possible if they are free to do so?

Stimpyone

24 hour bus lane on the N32 from the Malahide Road to the M50/M1 junction. The only bus that used to use it was the AerDart, it's gone now!, and there are no sheduled bus services on it ( i.e. empty road space :mad: ).

The Guards can be seen regularly hiding behind signs and bushes.

John R

loyatemu wrote:

On the N11 the section from foxrock to donnybrook is 0700-1900 because parts of the buslane used to be a 3rd regular lane, so this is given back to regular traffic off-peak. the buslane from foxrock to loughlinstown used to be hard-shoulder so it was never available to cars before and is 24hrs now.

The N11 buslane from Donnybrook to Foxrock was previously a hard shoulder also

loyatemu

John R wrote:

The N11 buslane from Donnybrook to Foxrock was previously a hard shoulder also

not all of it - from belfield in there was three lanes in each direction.

if anything the hours of that particular lane should be extended to 8pm at least - theres still a lot of traffic about at 7pm.

MorningStar

Stimpyone wrote:

24 hour bus lane on the N32 from the Malahide Road to the M50/M1 junction. The only bus that used to use it was the AerDart, it's gone now!, and there are no sheduled bus services on it ( i.e. empty road space :mad: ).

The Guards can be seen regularly hiding behind signs and bushes.

Isn't that a hard shoulder lane? Plus what many people fail to realise "Bus Lanes" are really commutor lanes to be used by other people than buses in particular taxis and cyclists. By it being quicker to use taxis you reduce the desire to drive therfore reducing the cars on the road.

D'Peoples Voice

Stimpyone wrote:

24 hour bus lane on the N32 from the Malahide Road to the M50/M1 junction. The only bus that used to use it was the AerDart, it's gone now!, and there are no sheduled bus services on it ( i.e. empty road space :mad: ).

I can't speak for the Northside,
but over the southside, taxi drivers can use the bus lanes, and we have thousands of taxis driving on our roads.
Also emergency vehicles like ambulances, fire engines, and the gardai may use the bus lanes, as the bus lanes have replaced the hard shoulders.
Therefore we never really have empty bus lanes for very long, at the very least every 3 or 4 hours, an emergency vehicle uses them, of course if the lane was clogged with cars, there would be a massive risk of the emergency services not getting to people in time.
But yes I agree with you, the name "bus lane" is a bit of a misnomer!

Trampas

Is it true that taxis can only use bus lanes if there is 2 or more passengers in the car.

I am pretty sure they cant use them unless there is a paying fare in it

Stimpyone

MorningStar wrote:

Isn't that a hard shoulder lane? Plus what many people fail to realise "Bus Lanes" are really commutor lanes to be used by other people than buses in particular taxis and cyclists. By it being quicker to use taxis you reduce the desire to drive therfore reducing the cars on the road.

I suggest you take a trip along the N32, journey times vary from 15mins to 45mins at various time of the day, Taxies add to the problem by traveling along the the bus lane all the way to the M50/M1 junction and then crossing 2 other lanes of traffic at the last moment in order to head for the airport which causes more delays for the hapless average motorist starring at an empty lane save for the odd Taxi. Having a lane exclusively for Taxi's ( who aren't by the way a form of public transport ) and emergency services ( which manage quite well in the centre of the city and indeed before the spawn of the bus lane) is bad traffic management and wouldn't happen any where else. Remember there are no buses on this road......... pure madness

Seth Brundle

loyatemu wrote:

bus lanes are there to get buses past traffic. Sure, at times when there's no traffic there's no need to have them, but by extension theres no need for cars to use them either if the rest of the road is clear. Its simpler to have them 24 hours, there's less scope for confusion and debate with traffic cops.

<snip>

I agree though that buslanes shouldn't be there on roads with no regular bus service.

agree 100%

Trampas wrote:

Is it true that taxis can only use bus lanes if there is 2 or more passengers in the car.

I am pretty sure they cant use them unless there is a paying fare in it

I think so but rarely see it enforced.

edit: that should have been 2 or more people (including driver) i.e. one passenger or more!

MorningStar

Stimpyone wrote:

I suggest you take a trip along the N32, journey times vary from 15mins to 45mins at various time of the day, Taxies add to the problem by traveling along the the bus lane all the way to the M50/M1 junction and then crossing 2 other lanes of traffic at the last moment in order to head for the airport which causes more delays for the hapless average motorist starring at an empty lane save for the odd Taxi. Having a lane exclusively for Taxi's ( who aren't by the way a form of public transport ) and emergency services ( which manage quite well in the centre of the city and indeed before the spawn of the bus lane) is bad traffic management and wouldn't happen any where else. Remember there are no buses on this road......... pure madness

You mean the haples cars that are actually clogging the end of the bus lane casuing the problem. The bus lane is to make the taxis etc... move more freely so it sounds like they are working for them. It may delay other drivers but that is actually part of the point. Taxis are considered public transport. THe road trffic methods are in actual fact trying to slow cars down and that is what many people don't understand

TrickyRicky

why is the bus lane on the busiest stretch of the N11 from Donnybrook to Foxrock church (Stillorgan Road) 7am-7pm when the bus lane on the quieter stretch of the dualler, with less bus routes using it,from Foxrock to the Loughlinstown roundabout (Bray Road) has a 24 hr one? More great logic from DB??!!

HelterSkelter

Stimpyone wrote:

Having a lane exclusively for Taxi's ( who aren't by the way a form of public transport ) and emergency services ( which manage quite well in the centre of the city and indeed before the spawn of the bus lane) is bad traffic management and wouldn't happen any where else

Are you saying that emergency services shouldn't be allowed use the bus lane??? Where do you suggest they drive then?? I doubt you would have the same view if one of your parents was in the back of an ambulance dying of a heart attack urgently needing to get to the hospital. What a selfish attitude.

Stimpyone

HelterSkelter wrote:

Are you saying that emergency services shouldn't be allowed use the bus lane??? Where do you suggest they drive then?? I doubt you would have the same view if one of your parents was in the back of an ambulance dying of a heart attack urgently needing to get to the hospital. What a selfish attitude.

:rolleyes: for the love of god... doesn't even merit a response.. troll on my friend.

Morningstar... Taxi's are not public transport!!. There is no public transport from where i live to where I work, therefore I have to drive. If I took a taxi to work it would cost me a fortune ( far more expensive that car, insurance, petrol etc.. ) are you honestly trying to tell me that a 24 hour bus lane with no sheduled buses on one of the northsides busiest ( and soon to be busier when the 22,000 new homes go up ) roads is a good idea .

rubadub

Use of Quality Bus Corridors and Bus Lanes


25 June 2002
To ask the the Minister for Transport if he will allow motorcyclists to use quality bus corridors and bus lanes; and if he will make a statement on the matter

-Sean Haughey

Answered by the Minister for Transport (Seamus Brennan)

The primary purpose of bus lanes is to facilitate and promote bus based public transport. Existing regulations generally limit the use of bus lanes to buses and, in the case of with-flow bus lanes, to cyclists. Having regard to the role of taxis in providing on-street immediate hire services, an exemption to that limitation is allowed in respect of taxis when they are being used in the course of business.

The Minister for the Environment and Local Government previously held responsibility in this area and following representations from hackney, limousine and motorcycle interests on the issue of bus lane access, a review of the regulations was undertaken last year by his Department in consultation with An Garda Síochána, the Dublin Transportation Office and Dublin Corporation.

An overriding concern is the carrying capacity of bus lanes and the potential that their primary role to provide bus priority could be undermined if other vehicles are allowed access. Having regard to these circumstances, and having considered the various views expressed on this issue, it was decided on completion of the review that there should be no change in the existing bus lane access provisions.

I have no proposals at present to amend the existing provisions.

I was on the N11 on the bus lane since there was building on the cycleway, some cheeky fu cker in a minibus with no passengers started to beep me!, so I stopped and just stood there right in front of the bus, he had to back up to pass me out so I went back so he had to keep backing up, people in the cars were loving it.

That taxis have a nice loop hole they can always there are on the way to collect. I think that ryanair guy bought a plate just to use the lanes. thats from 2002 so it may have changed

shltter

Stimpyone wrote:

24 hour bus lane on the N32 from the Malahide Road to the M50/M1 junction. The only bus that used to use it was the AerDart, it's gone now!, and there are no sheduled bus services on it ( i.e. empty road space :mad: ).

The Guards can be seen regularly hiding behind signs and bushes.

I suggest that you have your eyes checked as that bus lane is 7am to 7pm mon to sat

The space used by the Bus Lane on that stretch was formerly the hard shoulder if the Bus Lane was removed it would return to being a hard shoulder and would make absolutely no difference to ordinary road users

The problem with that section of road is that it was originally intended to be motorway however the NRA decided to save money and reduced that section to a single carriage way
Of course the geniuses in the planning department have since given permission for 2 massive hotels to be built at either end of that road now and of course the massive Clarehall estate and there is another 8000 houses going in beside Clarehall

So while you are sitting in the ever increasing traffic Jams on that road dont blame the under used Bus lane blame the ****ing idiots in Government the NRA the City Council etc etc

shltter

24 hour Bus lanes are in places were the relevant Authorities do not want regular traffic to use that section of the road ever

usually they used to be the Hard shoulder before they were converted to Bus Lane use so there is no loss to general traffic by having them 24 hours.
Sometimes they are contra flow Bus Lanes like the Quays or where general traffic is restricted from turning like South Great Georges St.


However although the N32 bus lane used to be a hard shoulder it is NOT a 24hour Bus Lane

shltter

TrickyRicky wrote:

why is the bus lane on the busiest stretch of the N11 from Donnybrook to Foxrock church (Stillorgan Road) 7am-7pm when the bus lane on the quieter stretch of the dualler, with less bus routes using it,from Foxrock to the Loughlinstown roundabout (Bray Road) has a 24 hr one? More great logic from DB??!!

Dublin Bus do not determine the operating times of the Bus Lanes that would be the relevant local authority

Stimpyone

shltter wrote:

The space used by the Bus Lane on that stretch was formerly the hard shoulder if the Bus Lane was removed it would return to being a hard shoulder and would make absolutely no difference to ordinary road users

Why so?, why would the bus lane have to be reverted to a hard shoulder? could it not simply be made ito another lane. The seem to be putting lights at the junction near the round-a-bout ( which is another disaster ) so this would elevate the safety concerns with the afore mentioned junction.

Oh yeah add the Minister for Transport to the blame list as the north east Dublin has feck all going on for it in the transport 21 thingy. Sent a mail to the minister highlighting the issue.... he's getting back to me:rolleyes:

cyclopath2001

shltter wrote:

However although the N32 bus lane used to be a hard shoulder it is NOT a 24hour Bus Lane

Actually it used be a very good cycle lane. Now, there's none.

ubu

shltter wrote:

However although the N32 bus lane used to be a hard shoulder it is NOT a 24hour Bus Lane

It did up until recently be a 24hour bus lane tho, it only changed to 7-7 in the last few months.

BrianD

There is constant carping on about empty bus lanes by people who really do not know any better. It makes me laugh. Have a look at the facts.

I never see buses - Dublin Bus have just under 1,000 buses working approximately 175 routes in the city. Think about it. How many buses were you really expecting to see going down that lane at any one time? On the other hand, 194 million journeys are being made - so clearly much use is being of the fleet and bus lanes by commuters.

The majority of 24 hour bus lanes were previously hard shoulders so they were never open for general traffic. Therefore no 'loss' of road space to cars. Furthermore, even though buses don't operate 24 hours the existence of these lanes are not an issue outside of peak rush hours.

Making a bus lane into a general lane would help traffic. WRONG. Right now, nipping down a bus lane during rush hour will speed up your journey. Why? That's because only you and buses are using it and not other traffic. There is no evidence or study to support the theory that adding another lane (i.e. closing a bus lane) will speed up traffic mainly because nearly all routes have 'choke points' and they dictate how fast traffic will flow. Furthermore, the 194 million passenger journeys detailed above will be inconvenienced so its a no win situation for all commuters.

So the 'why is there 24 hour bus lanes' and 'I never see any buses in them' are clearly ridiculous and lazy arguements. Closure of bus lanes will have almost no effect on car commute times and will actually delay motorists more.

shltter

ubu wrote:

It did up until recently be a 24hour bus lane tho, it only changed to 7-7 in the last few months.

It has been 7 to 7 for as long as I can remember

shltter

Stimpyone wrote:

Why so?, why would the bus lane have to be reverted to a hard shoulder? could it not simply be made ito another lane. The seem to be putting lights at the junction near the round-a-bout ( which is another disaster ) so this would elevate the safety concerns with the afore mentioned junction.

Oh yeah add the Minister for Transport to the blame list as the north east Dublin has feck all going on for it in the transport 21 thingy. Sent a mail to the minister highlighting the issue.... he's getting back to me:rolleyes:

It would not have to but this is Dublin City Council so my money would be on it reverting to a hard shoulder.

I cannot see them doing anything with it this side of the Port Tunnel opening as that road is the official diversion from the Airport to the city centre and having a free lane is handy for getting all the "Important" people in and out quickly

Dublin Bus applied to Run buses along that route serving the airport but were refused permission I believe they planned to run some of the 27s up to the airport.

And the Minister for Transport would come under the Government in blame list

SickCert

why is the bus lane on the busiest stretch of the N11 from Donnybrook to Foxrock church (Stillorgan Road) 7am-7pm when the bus lane on the quieter stretch of the dualler, with less bus routes using it,from Foxrock to the Loughlinstown roundabout (Bray Road) has a 24 hr one? More great logic from DB??!!

No logic on poor old blame DB's department.
They only operate on them bus lanes.
One other suggestion at a meeting was at 1900 hours the bus lane should go back to being a hard shoulder, as to prevent undertaking by BMW's at 70 mph etc. Deaf ears.

Victor

Most 24 hour bus lanes double as hard shoulders. :rolleyes:

Trampas wrote:

Is it true that taxis can only use bus lanes if there is 2 or more passengers in the car.

One or more.

egan007

BrianD wrote:

There is constant carping on about empty bus lanes by people who really do not know any better. It makes me laugh. Have a look at the facts.

I never see buses - Dublin Bus have just under 1,000 buses working approximately 175 routes in the city. Think about it. How many buses were you really expecting to see going down that lane at any one time? On the other hand, 194 million journeys are being made - so clearly much use is being of the fleet and bus lanes by commuters.

The majority of 24 hour bus lanes were previously hard shoulders so they were never open for general traffic. Therefore no 'loss' of road space to cars. Furthermore, even though buses don't operate 24 hours the existence of these lanes are not an issue outside of peak rush hours.

Making a bus lane into a general lane would help traffic. WRONG. Right now, nipping down a bus lane during rush hour will speed up your journey. Why? That's because only you and buses are using it and not other traffic. There is no evidence or study to support the theory that adding another lane (i.e. closing a bus lane) will speed up traffic mainly because nearly all routes have 'choke points' and they dictate how fast traffic will flow. Furthermore, the 194 million passenger journeys detailed above will be inconvenienced so its a no win situation for all commuters.

So the 'why is there 24 hour bus lanes' and 'I never see any buses in them' are clearly ridiculous and lazy arguements. Closure of bus lanes will have almost no effect on car commute times and will actually delay motorists more.

While you have some constructive points borderline obvious (but there are sadly overlooked by the people who make decisions) I think it would be up to an expert of another lane would help. Without studying flows junction layouts bottleknecks it's impossible to say.
What i'm saying is that the current method is a very inefficient use of road space.

Imagine it was a computer with 2 processors.
The first processor does all the geberal work
The second waits for specific jobs, but gets them done really quickly, however it remains idle while the first is chocked.
The computer designer would figure out a more effiecent use fo teh second processor.

I'm using this example as computers work on logic and efficiency
I also understand that problems are often made up by many smaller problems and solving the buslane problem is only part of solving the traffic problem. I wish FF would realise that there are no quick fix solutions.

Just thinking off the top of my head - what about giving some other branch of road user into the buslane?

BrianD

I wouldn't agree. Bus lanes are not an inefficient use of road space. They assist in providing a route for 194 million journeys per annum. Unfortunately, it seems that DB does not have the final decision on whether a lane is 24 hour or 12 hour. Not that it makes a whole lot of difference.

The bottom line is people wrongly single out 24 hr bus lanes for complaint when they are stuck in traffic and see this seemingly 'empty' (i.e not full of cars). Of course, it's a false economy - if you use the lane illegally then you will get there faster. However, if it is opened to all traffic another line will form, bus passengers will be discommoded and there is no improvement in overall commuting.

Hagar

BrianD wrote:

They assist in providing a route for 194 million journeys per annum.

194,000,000 / 364 = 532,967 journeys per day (Christmas Day Excluded)

Assume all are return journeys so divide by 2 = 266,483

Are you seriously telling me 266,483 people use buses 7 days a week 52 weeks of the year?
Taking into account reduced commuter traffic on Sat and Sun and holidays etc it's even more un-believeable.

Or are they just "potential" journeys? ie the buses are going up and down the bus lanes largely empty?
If so how many people actually use the buses per day?

How many real people would be transported down any one buslane in an hour. It would be interesting to compare it to how many people could go down the same lane per hour in a car.

Try this scenario, car creeping along at 5mph, car 16 ft long round up to 30 ft to allow for gaps, driver only would move 880 people per hour per lane

Maths: 5mph * 5280 ft per mile / car length 30ft = 880

Given that many cars will have more than 1 occupant and traffic may move faster and nose to tail traffic means smaller gaps I would estimate more than 1000 people per lane per hour in cars. How does this compare with projected "real" passenger journeys per hour in a given bus lane?

BrianD

Sorry, typo there. the correct figure according to the DB web site is 149.9 million (not 194 million as I stated) passenger journeys in 2004. Hey, what's 50 million journeys between friends.:D

Hagar

Fair enough:D

I still wonder about the difference between "actual bums on seats" and "journeys" though.

Zaph0d

Hagar wrote:

194,000,000 / 364 = 532,967 journeys per day (Christmas Day Excluded)

Assume all are return journeys so divide by 2 = 266,483

Are you seriously telling me 266,483 people use buses 7 days a week 52 weeks of the year?
Taking into account reduced commuter traffic on Sat and Sun and holidays etc it's even more un-believeable.

Or are they just "potential" journeys? ie the buses are going up and down the bus lanes largely empty?
If so how many people actually use the buses per day?

149 million journeys per year, generating €178m of revenue or about €1.20 per journey. If you don't believe this you have to wonder where Dublin Bus is getting all this money.

http://www.dublinbus.ie/about_us/pdf/BAC_04_no_pics.pdf

How many real people would be transported down any one buslane in an hour. It would be interesting to compare it to how many people could go down the same lane per hour in a car.

The AA predicted that the N11 QBC would lower the volumes of people using the road. However the opposite happened because more people were carried in the buslane than were carried by cars in that lane. The volume of people carried in the lane is constantly monitored and reflected in Dublin Bus fare revenue.

Here is the AA press release in 1999:
http://www.theaa.ie/news/article.asp?news_Id=249
A lot of press was given to this, presumably because RTE journalists would be affected.

As it turned out, the capacity of the road during the morning peak hours increased by nearly 40% from around 7,500 to around 10,700. In 2004, buses were carrying 48% of passengers on the road as opposed to 36% in cars, despite having only one lane as opposed to two car lanes, and despite sharing that lane with taxis.
http://www.dto.ie/qbc2004.pdf

Because many more buses were needed to satisfy the extra demand, the frequency improved up to as many as 50 buses /hour. Improved frequency attracted more people still. The bus is now full of people who own cars. They get some exercise, they get to work quicker, they don't fill the city all day with parked cars, they cause less accidents, they pay less money for travel than they would in fuel and parking.

The AA said nothing about this.

Very few people would now suggest returning the lane to a car lane (except George Hook).

Hagar

^^ Great response. Well laid out. Well backed up. Nice one.

MorningStar

Hagar wrote:

^^ Great response. Well laid out. Well backed up. Nice one.

Does that mean you admit your ideas of how things should be run are not going to work?
It's amazing that you need every little detail pointed out to know what is pretty obvious to most:p

Seth Brundle

Zaph0d wrote:

...they cause less accidents...

being a bit pedantic here but just because someone doesn't drive to work, does not automatically mean that they have less accidents - it means they just drive less!

Victor

kbannon wrote:

being a bit pedantic here but just because someone doesn't drive to work, does not automatically mean that they have less accidents - it means they just drive less!

Using public transport is an order of scale safer than driving.

Hagar

@MorningStar Are you stalking me?
Would you not go and haunt some other unfortunate?

rubadub

BrianD wrote:

The bottom line is people wrongly single out 24 hr bus lanes for complaint when they are stuck in traffic and see this seemingly 'empty' (i.e not full of cars). Of course, it's a false economy - if you use the lane illegally then you will get there faster. However, if it is opened to all traffic another line will form, bus passengers will be discommoded and there is no improvement in overall commuting.

Yes, I see lots of people never giving way for a bus trying to pull out, not wanting to be stuck behind them, yet they will give individual people in cars way all the time and think they are being nice for doing so, their "good deed for the day". I always let buses out, I see it as the equivalent of letting 50-100 cars out, speeds up the bus journeys which increases peoples reason to change to the bus.