New Tournament

VEGAS NIGHTS

VEGAS NIGHTS has taken on a new venue...... The Madison Bar in Rathmines. The first tournament in the Madison will be on Mon 21st Nov. This will be a one rebuy OR top up tournament. As always we will have poker tables for all players and food will be available at the break.

GAME TYPE: No limit Texas Holdem

PRIZE FUND: Based on no. of players.

REGISTRATION: 7:15pm

GAME START: 7:30PM

ENTRY E25 (including E5 reg)
REBUY OR TOP UP E25 (including E5 reg)

Max spend E50. (Estimated prizefund on 50 players E1,700).

CHIPS: Start...2,000. Rebuy...2,500. Top up...3,000

BLINDS: first 4 levels 20mins as follows 25/50. 50/100. 100/200. 150/300. (15 min break)
15mins for rest of night as follows 200/400. 300/600. 500/1,000. 700/1,500. 1,000/2,000. 1,500/3,000. 2,000/4,000. 3,000/6,000. 5,000/10,000. 7,000/15,000. 10,000/20,000.

All tables are self-deal untill final table(9 players) which will have a dealer.

Nick O'Hara will be TD and will resolve any issues which may arise. There will be a full list of rules available on request.

There will be a E20 prize for the best winning hand of the night.

The remainder of the prize fund will be divided as follows.......
1st.........45%
2nd........25%
3rd.........14%
4th.........10%
5th.........6%

Typical finances based on fifty players:
Entry: Prizefund E1,000 / House E250
Rebuys and top ups x 35: Prizefund E700 / House E175
Totals: Prizefund E1,700 / House E425

Payouts:based on fifty players:
Best winning hand: E25
1st................E765
2nd...............E425
3rd................E240
4th................E170
5ht................100

Top 3 players will qualify for VEGAS NIGHTS '05 championshp............1st prize minimum E10,000 OR a trip for two to Las Vegas in june'06 with one ticket into the main event of WSOP.

This tournament is open to all players experienced or beginner. There is no need for advance ticket purchase.

I will be happy to answer any questions or coments people may have regarding this or any VEGAS NIGHTS tournament.

Dub13

Read this

http://www.boards.ie/vbulletin/showthread.php?t=227377

DeVore

The house gets as much as 2nd?!
Taking 25% of the entrys AND the rebuys and topups is a bit stiff imho.

DeV.

VEGAS NIGHTS

DeVore,

It's 20% not 25%
This might seem like a high rake and on face-value people may very quickly asume it is unfair. E425 is not a huge budget to put on a tournament of this kind. We have gone to great lenghts to ensure we provide the highest standard in pub poker tournaments. The logistics in putting on a quality poker tournament are far greater than some people think........... The E425 needs to cover two staff wages, cost of food, transport of equipment, decks of cards etc. Along with this there are indirect expenses such as printing of posters and membership cards etc, ph bills, advertising, text messaging ,etc, etc.

I think if you take all this into account there is very little left from E425. In adition to that most pub tournaments take a %??? With this tournament you know exactly where money is going and from there can choose weather or not you want to play under those circumstances. You can go to other pub tournaments which will not have a transparent cash flow and will have cloths thrown over pub tables etc.

Most pub tournaments are multy rebuy which generate larger amounts of money. This tournament is one rebuy OR top up. The reason we do this is to make the game more afordable and people know the maximum (or likely) spend is E50. Over time players poker skills will develop far beter in a one rebuy tournament than in multy rebuys.

This is a quality tournament which costs money to put on.

Please let me know your thoughts on this

DeVore

VEGAS NIGHTS wrote:

Entry: Prizefund E1,000 / House E250
Rebuys and top ups x 35: Prizefund E700 / House E175

VEGAS NIGHTS wrote:

DeVore,

It's 20% not 25%
<snip>
Please let me know your thoughts on this

I think you need to go back to primary school and relearn percentages my friend!

DeV.

PS: I don't disagree or contest your argument, your costs are your concern not ours but as you say at least its transparent. Inaccurate but transparent!!

DubTony

VEGAS NIGHTS wrote:

DeVore,

It's 20% not 25%

That depends on which side of the till you're standing. €20 buy-in and a 25% reg fee on top. A quarter added gives you a fifth back. (I'm a retailer )

And as for the reg on the re-buys .... I just don't get that. It's the main reason I haven't been to a pub tourny. What about just putting a €10 reg and no reg for the rebuys. And when Tom complains about the 50% registration fee, you can tell him it's only a third.

Looks better that way ... 25% no, it's 20% ..... 50% ... oh no ... it's only 33%.

DeVore

Ok, but thats not the way most humans do it.
250 is 25% of 1000.

DeV.

sleepypriest

DeVore wrote:

Ok, but thats not the way most humans do it.
250 is 25% of 1000.

DeV.

Maths obviously isn't this boards strong point

Prize fund = 1000
House = 250

Total = 1250

250/1250 = 20%

It works with the lower figures as well funny that!

Prize Fund = 700
House = 175

Total = 875

175/875 = 20%

ionapaul

Given that I live approx. 2 minutes away, I mind attend this and give a full report tomorrow.

okidoki987

decks of cards

At least you know exactly how much they are taking out of the prize fund.
Compared to some of the other tournies I 've seen advertised, it's upfront. Some of the tournies being organised nowadays are a disgrace where people have no idea of the total payout as they have 3 re buys, no records, guaranteed prizes but the organisers are sometimes getting nearly as much as the players?

Trampas

okidoki987 wrote:

At least you know exactly how much they are taking out of the prize fund.
Compared to some of the other tournies I 've seen advertised, it's upfront. Some of the tournies being organised nowadays are a disgrace where people have no idea of the total payout as they have 3 re buys, no records, guaranteed prizes but the organisers are sometimes getting nearly as much as the players?

Thats the reason why i don't play tourneys in pubs as you have no idea where the money is going.

I prefer the €20 + €5 reg at least you own €20 is in the pool.

VEGAS NIGHTS

DubTony wrote:

And as for the reg on the re-buys .... I just don't get that. It's the main reason I haven't been to a pub tourny. What about just putting a €10 reg and no reg for the rebuys. And when Tom complains about the 50% registration fee, you can tell him it's only a third.

________________________________________________________________

The reason we don't just charge E10 reg on entry is because not everyone needs to rebuy OR top up. This means their tournament only cost them E25. I believe E5 reg fee on top of E20 is resonable (even if paid twice in one night). However E10 reg on top of E20 entry.....................I can only imagine the reaction by some people.

Culchie

VEGAS NIGHTS wrote:

DubTony wrote:

And as for the reg on the re-buys .... I just don't get that. It's the main reason I haven't been to a pub tourny. What about just putting a €10 reg and no reg for the rebuys. And when Tom complains about the 50% registration fee, you can tell him it's only a third.

________________________________________________________________

The reason we don't just charge E10 reg on entry is because not everyone needs to rebuy OR top up. This means their tournament only cost them E25. I believe E5 reg fee on top of E20 is resonable (even if paid twice in one night). However E10 reg on top of E20 entry.....................I can only imagine the reaction by some people.

Why don't you do like Green Joker Events, and just charge 12.5% ?

VEGAS NIGHTS

Why don't you do like Green Joker Events, and just charge 12.5% ?
________________________________________________________________


Pub tournaments in general have a questionable cash flow. People don't know how much comes in and there for must accept the prize fund given.

This way people know exact no. of players and rebuys/top ups and the prize fund must reflect it.

In our multy rebuy tournament we rake a % but I'm working on a system which would be similar to this one.

I think this system is very clear and resonable.

Ps: How do you select a portion of someones post to qoute in your own post?

ntlbell

VEGAS NIGHTS wrote:

Ps: How do you select a portion of someones post to qoute in your own post?

Click Quote


And edit inside the tags

Culchie

VEGAS NIGHTS wrote:

Why don't you do like Green Joker Events, and just charge 12.5% ?
________________________________________________________________


Pub tournaments in general have a questionable cash flow. People don't know how much comes in and there for must accept the prize fund given.

This way people know exact no. of players and rebuys/top ups and the prize fund must reflect it.

In our multy rebuy tournament we rake a % but I'm working on a system which would be similar to this one.

I think this system is very clear and resonable.

Ps: How do you select a portion of someones post to qoute in your own post?

Move the "[/quote]" to where you need it to go.

I'm afraid your answer doesn't make sense to be honest. All tournaments have ' questionable cash flow, unless they are pre-sold in advance.

P.S It's good to see you on boards, and at least answer your critics at last.

VEGAS NIGHTS

P.S It's good to see you on boards, and at least answer your critics at last.

________________________________________________________________________________

I'm not big user of computers.............. I've been using poker.ie for about 6 months but didn't know about boards until recently. I'd be more than happy to reply to any questions or coments people may have regarding any VEGAS NIGHTS tournament.

Ps: still couldn't work out the qoute thing. I clicked the "post reply"button. Then in your post I highlighted the part I wanted to qoute. draged it into my text box and it came out as above???

Marq

VEGAS NIGHTS has posted up all the details of the tournament. Unlike some pub tournies you know exactly how much is going to registration. Now that you know, you can decide not to play the tourney if you don't like paying that much in reg. I think 20% is reasonable enough for a pub tourney, and I don't think there is anything to be gained by harrassing VEGAS NIGHTS about his reg. At least he is entirely up front about it.

Nalced_irl

VEGAS NIGHTS wrote:

P.S It's good to see you on boards, and at least answer your critics at last.

________________________________________________________________________________

I'm not big user of computers.............. I've been using poker.ie for about 6 months but didn't know about boards until recently. I'd be more than happy to reply to any questions or coments people may have regarding any VEGAS NIGHTS tournament.

Ps: still couldn't work out the qoute thing. I clicked the "post reply"button. Then in your post I highlighted the part I wanted to qoute. draged it into my text box and it came out as above???

I was at the tourney in McGowans in Churchtown. I thought it was very well run for a pub tourney and while the reg on the rebuy might seem a bit steep, it does work better i feel that the prizepool is not "dipped into" by Vegasnights. Some pub tourneys you work out during it what you think the prizes will be, only to find the prizepool cut in half by the organisers but with these at least you know it will be 100% of the €20 buy ins. Keep up the good work guys!

VEGAS NIGHTS

Well I gota go back to work now...................maybe see some of you there tonight.

DapperGent

20% seems pretty reasonable to me too if it turns out to be run well. Nice and upfront too.

DeVore

sleepypriest wrote:

Maths obviously isn't this boards strong point

Prize fund = 1000
House = 250

Total = 1250

250/1250 = 20%

It works with the lower figures as well funny that!

Prize Fund = 700
House = 175

Total = 875

175/875 = 20%

Oh wow, I was going to let this thread go because I didn't feel that strongly about it but now I do. Ok Bertrand Russell, you are quite right that despite a primary degree in pure maths all these percentage things really wreck my poor little head.
Lets see if I can't simpify this for my confused brain...

I said: "The house gets as much as 2nd?!
Taking 25% of the entrys AND the rebuys and topups is a bit stiff imho."

So lets boil this down shall we:
Let X = "the entrys AND the rebuys and topups"
Let Y = what the house gets.

So we can resubstitute (ooh thats a big word) these back into the original statement:
"Y being 25% of X is a bit stiff imho"

Now, Y is 250 and X is 1000. (the same logic works for the lower numbers).

My statement stands. You seem concerned about Y as a percentage of Y+X. I said not one word about Y+X (ie the total take) and I don't know why you are introducing it to some how prove I can't do math. Please reread what I wrote.

I mean lets make it Y+X+1000, now the reg fee is an even smaller %!

No matter how you feck around with the semantics, 250 (Y) is 25% of 1000 (X). End of f*ckin story mate.

DeV.

Amaru

Get stressed much Dev?

As somebody who's been on this site for a long time and doesn't do a lot of pimping, and as somebody who knows Nick(VEGAS NIGHTS) personally, i can say that he isn't a con artist, and getting somebody to register to pretend to defend him isn't his style(especially somebody from Kildare?!!). Several reputable people here can vouch that Nick is a genuinely nice guy, and he does pump an awful lot of the profits back into the tournaments. For a tournament that may not even be a year old, i think their take is justified with the starting costs they face.

DeVore

You're right, I've removed the insinuation that Vegas Nights have anything to do with sleepypriest. I'd direct you to the part where I welcomed VN and have said that they are transparent. I have heard good things about their tournies too. I have no particular beef with them apart from what started as a joke pointing out that their percentages, A of B were not quite correct.

What really boils my bunny is being accused rather snottily of being thick *and* inaccurate by someone who isnt being accurate themselves. I'm sorry but I'm not going to be told I can't do basic maths by someone who can't see that 250 is 25% of 1000. I mean if we're going to be smart arsed about pedantry, please point me to where I mentioned *anything* about the total take in.

Bear. Sore Head. Big Stick. Bad Idea.

DeV.

Amaru

Its understandable. I can't imagine being too tolerant of semantics after living it up in MC either!

DeVore

yeah its hard be too annoyed here but a few people have been jerking my chain online today.

DeV.

Hectorjelly

When you talk about taking a certain % of the prizepool it only makes sense to assume that the % is taken from total, the alternative is to suggest that you talk about the % of the total once you have taken the rake off, which is clearly insane. (if I offered you 20% off on a phone and the origal price was $125 how much would you expect it to be?)

In this case:

ENTRY E25 (including E5 reg)
REBUY OR TOP UP E25 (including E5 reg)

Of the money you give TWENTY % goes to the rake, and 80 % goes to the house.

DeVore

The total in take was never mentioned. I mentioned percentages first and I was clear about what was a percentage of what as explained in post 22 here. If you have a mathematical argument against that post please post it. What "only makes sense" to you is of zero interest to me.

I'm sorry but 250 IS 25% of 1000. Hence my statement:
"Taking 25% of the entrys AND the rebuys and topups is a bit stiff imho." stands.

Sorry I know this is now pedantry but I'm not going to be told that Maths obviously isnt my strong point when I've been very specific about what was a percentage of what.

If you want to add numbers together and redo percentages thats your perogative. If that makes sense to you, hey knock yourself out. But when presented with two numbers (say 250 and 1000) I refer to Y (250) as being 25% of X (1000).

I can't make it clearer then that and this is my last post on the matter as the thread is heading off track faster then a British Rail Express.

DeV.

Hectorjelly

DeVore wrote:

The total in take was never mentioned. I mentioned percentages first and I was clear about what was a percentage of what as explained in post 22 here. If you have a mathematical argument against that post please post it. What "only makes sense" to you is of zero interest to me.

The maths is fine its the logic I cant understand.

DeVore wrote:

I'm sorry but 250 IS 25% of 1000. Hence my statement:
"Taking 25% of the entrys AND the rebuys and topups is a bit stiff imho." stands.

The entry fee is 25. A top up is 25. 10 of this goes to the house, and 40 to the prize fund. So they take 20% of the entry and rebuys. Allthough it is mathematically correct to say that 250/1000 is 25% it makes no sense in this context, as 1000 has no relevance here.

I think the confusion came because this is a mildy confusing subject and the original post used misleading terms.

Spiritus

I'm folding here. Every time.

Dub13

DeVore wrote:

yeah its hard be too annoyed here but a few people have been jerking my chain today.

Fair play to you tom....how much does this kind of service cost in Monte Carlo,;) I hope she was worth it.

Lafortezza

Spiritus wrote:

I'm folding here. Every time.

I'm taking a €5 taxi down the road to the Fitz where the rake isn't 20%/25%. Every time.

Dub13

lafortezza wrote:

I'm taking a €5 taxi down the road to the Fitz where the rake isn't 20%/25%. Every time.

Can you still get a €5 taxi any ware in Dublin these days...

Amaru

DeVore wrote:

The total in take was never mentioned. I mentioned percentages first and I was clear about what was a percentage of what as explained in post 22 here. If you have a mathematical argument against that post please post it. What "only makes sense" to you is of zero interest to me.

I'm sorry but 250 IS 25% of 1000. Hence my statement:
"Taking 25% of the entrys AND the rebuys and topups is a bit stiff imho." stands.

Sorry I know this is now pedantry but I'm not going to be told that Maths obviously isnt my strong point when I've been very specific about what was a percentage of what.

If you want to add numbers together and redo percentages thats your perogative. If that makes sense to you, hey knock yourself out. But when presented with two numbers (say 250 and 1000) I refer to Y (250) as being 25% of X (1000).

I can't make it clearer then that and this is my last post on the matter as the thread is heading off track faster then a British Rail Express.

DeV.

Where is it said though that the 250 is a percentage of the 1000?

Here's Nicks original post

Typical finances based on fifty players:
Entry: Prizefund E1,000 / House E250
Rebuys and top ups x 35: Prizefund E700 / House E175
Totals: Prizefund E1,700 / House E425

All it does it show how the entry fee is split between prize and rake, not that the prize fund is the total money taken in(Nick clearly stated that its an example for 50 players @ 25 each, making 1250). This comes down to your intrepation of the figures, not whats actually there.

Nalced_irl

Personally i think while 20/25% is a bit high, it is good that they tell you before you even go there. I cant stand cowboy organisers who dont even mention the prizepool until the final table and then say that its about half what you thought it should be because they basically steal half of it. These guys tell you before you even go that €5 from your €25 is registration and i wish there were more that would do that. At the very least it shows some honesty on the pub circuit which is rare these days. I have only been to one Vegasnights tourney so far but they explained how much registration there was, they told me there was a registration on the rebuy also and basically didnt hide anything. I would have fully agreed that it was steep had i not played but they organise it well and you can tell they actually spend the reg money on making the tourney better. They have good tables, half decent chips, fairly crap cards (sorry but its true:( ) until the final table but overall it is far better than the other pub tourneys i have played.

DubTony

Poker players are used to buying in and paying a reg fee on top. So any reg fee will be regarded as a percentage of the buy-in. Whether it's a €10 + €1 in the Merrion (10% ... not 9.09%) or a pub tourny with a €20 buy-in and a €5 reg (25% ... not 20%) the registration is calculated as a percentage of the buy-in. When one poker player asks another "what's the buy-in", the answer is "10+1" or "20+5". Or "it's a $20 Sit and go" and the next question will be "how much is registration?" We do this so we can calculate how much is in the prize fund.

As potential customers, we should be treated with respect and not taken for fools. If I increase the price of a product in my store from €10 to €12.50, it's a 25% increase. Vegas Nights would try to convince the customer that it's only a 20% increase as €2.50 is 20% of €12.50.

No matter what way he wants to dress it up, he is adding a percentage of the buy-in as his rake. If you ran a tourny without registration fees, the buy-in would go to the prize fund. If, at the last minute, you decided to add a registration fee just as everyone sat down, there's no doubt that all the players would see the reg as a percentage of the buy-in. i.e. "it's an extra 25%!!!"

So, while Vegas Nights obviously runs very transparent tournaments, and fair play to them for that, if they want to announce their take publicly, they should calculate percentages from the customers viewpoint or not use percentages at all.

There is no doubt that the reg fee is 20% of the total cash paid over, but Vegas Nights don't actually keep the buy-in (they just mind it for the winners) so they can't claim that the buy-in cash is company turnover, and so shouldn't calculate the reg fee as a gross profit (i.e. 20% of turnover) as the only real turnover they have is the reg fee. So therefore the reg fee can only be calculated as a percentage of the buy-in, because, as far as Vegas Nights accounting practices and procedures go, no other number exists.

You don't need to be a mathematician to work that out.

ionapaul

Played in this last night - only 21 runners but very enjoyable I thought. The set-up seemed professional, nice enough tables, pretty crappy cards (until the final table, as someone else noted above), ok blinds structure. Once the final table formed, the prize pool and Vegasnights' take was clearly explained to all, very transparent. Room used was extremely cold, but this was the bar's fault and not the event organisers. The fact I went out on the bubble in 4th was wholy my fault

Mmmm_Lemony

Somebody recently posted, wondering if people in general ,who wanted to talk about general topics, should have a seperate area in poker to do so.

Perhalps instead of a general topic, there should be one for mathamatics.

Percentages, win %, lose % etc..

What does the fitz take on any given night in it's poker games. If it's less than 20%/25% (you do the math) then VegasNights is raking too little, not too much. The fitz takes a fortune for the rouly and BJ. The poker just entices people in. Maybe I'm wrong, I'm not an expert.

DeVore

I care not about rouly or BJ. I don't play them. I understand and accept that VN need to charge more then the fitz as the casinos have this income to fall back on and can use the tournies as loss leaders (actually they are break-even-leaders). I don't begrudge VN the rake, I don't think its extortionate or anything, but as a consumer the vagaries and intricacies of the open market are not my concern.

The Fitz tournies are as follows (afaik).

20+5
50+5
100+10
250+20
But they don't put a reg on rebuys.

Again, if I wanted to play in a pub, have a few drinks, and muck about in a small buy in tournie, I'd go to one of these. But I don't because I don't drink when playing and I don't like playing against drunks. Other then that, VN are pretty good by all accounts.

DubTony, thanks for putting it better then I could.

DeV.

Mmmm_Lemony

Casinos are most certainly not break eveners. Far from it. Is there anyone who has an idea of what the fitz makes, say, on a sunday night? 20 + 5, 20 rebuy. I bet it's a hell of alot more than 25%. Granted they have alot of overheads like...

Staffing
Lighting
Hang an cheese Sangajis, and cocktail sossi's

RoundTower

Mmmm_Lemony wrote:

Casinos are most certainly not break eveners. Far from it. Is there anyone who has an idea of what the fitz makes, say, on a sunday night? 20 + 5, 20 rebuy. I bet it's a hell of alot more than 25%. Granted they have alot of overheads like...

Staffing
Lighting
Hang an cheese Sangajis, and cocktail sossi's

I have an excellent idea. It's somewhere between minus 150 and plus 100 euro, counting staff and food costs but not heating/lighting.

DeVore

6 hours for the tournie, so thats about 3 man hours per tournie dealer. So each dealer costs somewhere in the region of 30 euro for the night (say). Each dealer services 50 euros worth of reg fee. So per table the other costs have to be covered from that 20 euros worth of reg fee that isnt paid to the dealers. On a good night thats 6 tables or 120 spare. Consider that the TD has to be paid, and the sambos etc and you can see that tournies in the casinos are break even, give or take some pocket change.

DeV.

Hectorjelly

Mildy confusing to some, very confusing to me. Im pretty sure I was in the wrong on this thread