Paul Carberry

fade2black

This has been thrown around a lot in other threads so I said I'd throw a poll up there. I'm not one of Carberry's biggest fans, in fact I think his style of racing is questionable to say the least.

I'm going to highlight two horses from the last week

Yarra McGuire and Eden Royale. Both Noel Meade trained horses, both great chances. On both horses Carberry did his usual...came there swinging away, oozing confidence...mates of mine say it's only a matter of how far....I say...no no...this is Carberry we're watching.

On Yarra Mcguire Ruby Walsh has been pushing his mount for a furlong or two while carberry has been statuesque on his mount...final furlong...he began too push his horse....of course there's wasn't a great deal there straight away and the horse with the momentum came past to score by a few lengths. Same on Eden Royal the other day.

With Harchibald I dunno what to think to be honest...firstly I used to think, as Mssr Walsh said..the horse just gives you everything and that's it. Maybe...maybe he can't take the hill...I don't think Harchibald is as good as people think he is anyway bu would he have won the champion hurdle with another jockey? Who knows.

Personally, I have had enough of this arrogant show off and will be steering clear of all his mounts in the future.

Opinions please...

Dfitzer

You may not agree with how he goes about it but I feel his record speaks for itself. I dont see how anyone could not rate him as a top jockey

fade2black

What record is this now?

fade2black

Ok I'll go on.

2002-03 wins: 116 (Ire)
2001-02 wins: 113 (Ire)
2000-01 wins: 44 (Ire)
1999-00 wins: 54 (Ire)

This is a recent record. Not bad at all. He has a good association with Noel Meade and gets up on a lot of good horses. I do think I'll be in the minority here but I just don't appreciate his style of riding.

pro_gnostic_8

P Carberry is "top man" in my book. No better judge of pace riding on the circuit today. And not many has his sympatico with a horse's character than he ............ he isn't a "boot-boy" on a horse like McCoy and perhaps this does not appeal to some punters.

Regarding his riding of the two horses mentioned above, it should be noted that some horses are notorious for actually finding nothing when coming off the bridle. And as for Harchibald, it is my honest opinion that if anyone else besides Carberry had been aboard then the horse would not have even been placed in the Champ Hurdle last year.

So, yea, my vote is a "yes".

jonny68

Dfitzer wrote:

You may not agree with how he goes about it but I feel his record speaks for itself. I dont see how anyone could not rate him as a top jockey

I'll go along with that as well...

TwistsAndTurns

Paul Carberry is not a bad jockey but he seems to have come to a halt were riding big winners is concerned. He`s won a few times at Cheltenham and won a Grand national on his Dad`s horse, this should have put him right to the front of saught after jockeys but alas between a shoulder injury early this year and some of his off course antics I worry a bit for him. I hope he proves me wrong at the end of the season. Tongue in cheek my money will be split 70/30 in favour of his sisters rides at big meetings.

masterK

I'm another in the Yes camp, his timing at delivering a horse at exactly the right time if first class IMO. He undoubtably has his faults, his cockiness and arrogance probably the major ones, but overall he's a jockey I'd rather be with than against.

As for harchibald, I feel he is not the most genuine of sorts, who will empty out on a stiff finish.

Morgans

I dont think that Paul Carberry is one bit arrogant. He is generally accepted as the more natural jockey riding today. When asked after his brother beat him in a big race at Leopardstown Christmas festival a few years ago, who was better, he said, that his sister was the best of the Carberrys. No one had heard of Nina at that time.

He is mad, gets injured hunting the week before the festival. Riding a tearaway just to prove that he could do it. He gets injured/a black eye when a gate hit him another time. An arrogant person, interested in what people think of him, would have kept these stories quiet. Carberry gave interviews. Cocky maybe- even the BoS/BM thing was a joke with Cullotty.

If you want arrogant look to BJG. A man who thinks he is far better than he actually is.

I'd have Walsh and maybe Murphy ahead of Carberry. There are no other jockeys that understand horses more that that three riding today.

fr wishy washy

I love to see Carberry in action myself as he is fantastic to watch on a horse.
Reminds me a bit of Andy Turnell way back when.

Harchibald is a choker -simple as.

Healio

Pity i didnt think to follow him today, he rode a 139/1 treble.

fade2black

haha of all days eh....

I dunno....there was a time, not so long ago when I was a staunch defender of Paul and around the time of the Champion Hurdle I was blue in the face from telling people that it certainly wasn't his fault that Harchibald didn't win. It's just lately I've felt that a lot of the 2nds he achieved could have been winners if he had just adopted some more forceful tactics.

Lately, also, I'm getting very annoyed with jockeys who refuse to keep up with the pace, expecially on ground and at tracks where it's quite difficult to do so...How often do you see horses flying at the finish and you're left to wonder what outcome would have been achieved if the horse wasn't given so much to do at the business end.

Morgans

Did you see Zum See win today?

masterK

fade2black wrote:

I'm getting very annoyed with jockeys who refuse to keep up with the pace, expecially on ground and at tracks where it's quite difficult to do so...How often do you see horses flying at the finish and you're left to wonder what outcome would have been achieved if the horse wasn't given so much to do at the business end.

I've been thinking exactly the same thing, I've backed quite a few horses who were left with impossible amounts of ground to make while travelling easily throughout the race. I think a lot of the lesser jockeys are trying to copy Ruby Walsh's, Carberrys and Timmy Murphy's favoured tactics of coming from off the pace, but don't have the tactical astuteness to pull it off. It's especially annoying when they do it on testing ground when it is difficult to make up ground.

fade2black

Morgans wrote:

Did you see Zum See win today?

I didn't to be honest. A good ride by the pilot?

Cyrus

good post anyway, nothing like a good natured debate

fade2black

Cyrus wrote:

good post anyway, nothing like a good natured debate

I didn't want to have a go at Carberry, just wanted to put it out there and see what other opinions were around. Being really honest, with the two horses I mentioned I was speaking a little through my pocket. I didn't appreciate the ride he gave to Yarra McGuire but that didn't alter my belief that he was a more than able jockey and my next bet was Eden Royale.....

It's funny, I've argued the merits of Paul Carberry's jockeyship to people before, defending his rides on many mounts. I think what it comes down to, and I'm admitting deafeat here, is that when people are financially invested in a horse (like I was on Harchibald in the County Hurdle 2 years ago) and when Carberry makes it seem like he's pulling double but then finds nothing it adds a lot to the disdain of defeat i think.

fr wishy washy

fade2black wrote:

(like I was on Harchibald in the County Hurdle 2 years ago)

Me too,
but in fairness he put his hand up to that one and it was the only time I've ever heard Noel Meade critisise him publically,even at that he did it tongue in cheek as everybody makes the odd mistake.

fade2black

Could Carberry have had Beef or Salmon a bit closer to the pace?.....

Just throwing it out there...

Morgans

Carberry gave Beef or Salmon a masterful ride. For a horse that you cant throw at a fence, he did brilliantly to get him with a chance of winning two out. You will need to pick your examples better. All jockeys make mistakes, and that there is more to a jockey than just throwing the kitchen sink at it.

fade2black

Morgans wrote:

Carberry gave Beef or Salmon a masterful ride. For a horse that you cant throw at a fence, he did brilliantly to get him with a chance of winning two out. You will need to pick your examples better. All jockeys make mistakes, and that there is more to a jockey than just throwing the kitchen sink at it.

I wasn't giving that as an example, pay attention, I was asking a simple question. You have your opinion, others have theres. I certainly don't think it was a "masterful" ride by any stretch of the imagination.

Morgans

You were putting it up as an example of where Carberry could have had a horse closer to the pace, or in other words an example of a ride where Carberry could do better. A view which if you think I misunderstood, you have reinforced your original position in your snotty reply. I'm sure there will be plenty of rides in which Carberry could do better throughout the year. If you note those and let us know, your arguement would be more persuasive.

By your first question and your response you obviously dont think it was a masterful ride. Thats fine, you have your opinion, you are wrong. But you are fully entitled to your wrong opinion.

fade2black

Morgans wrote:

Thats fine, you have your opinion, you are wrong.

I don't think you could come across anymore pedantic if you tried.

My "snotty" reply as you called it was in response to your equally snotty post. This whole thread is about opinions but you don't seem to like opinions that contradicts with your own so it may take a different route from here.

You called his ride today "Masterful"...I think, while it wasn't a terrible ride by any means, it certainly doesn't warrant such a superlative as "masterful". Beef or Salmon had ground that he revels in today and in my opinion if he had been ridden more positively there could have been a different result.

This is a thread about Paul Carberry and me giving my opinon on him and others giving theirs. I am clearly in the minority here and that's fine, it is though, only a discussion.

Morgans

I have to be pedantic to spell things out for people who order me to Pay Attention, when I fully understood the actual text and the implacation of your first post. I had to spell things out - just as i had to do in the thread re race times being important to race results - to make sure that my opionion is fully explained. I did think that maybe i misunderstood your first post on PC on BoS but you reinforced your opinion in your last two posts. I didnt need to pay closer attention.

I didnt think that there was anything snotty in my repsonse to the question, but that's OK.

Riding BoS more positively is counter productive and it is no coincidence that he responds best to quiet riders like Timmy Murphy and Paul Carberry. He was only in contention today becuase of the missing two fences down the back straight. I can spell it out further if you misunderstand.

fade2black

Morgans wrote:

I can spell it out further if you misunderstand.

I don't think I'll waste anymore of my time talking to you Morgans.

Morgans

That's disappointing.

fade2black

Well you know...there really isn't much more to be said on the matter at the moment...anything else would just be pointless arguing and I don't think either of us would care for that.

fade2black

A great ride on Brave Eagle in the first. Didnt see the ride he gave Wild Passion....and Harchibald....well it was brave to say the least.

scojones

Brave? Are you kidding me? There was no gap up the inside, and he's very very lucky he didn't send Harchibald crashing through the railing. If I was the trainer of Harchibald, I would consider never letting him get onboard again.

Morgans

Those who backed Harchibald have a genuine complaint about Paul Carberry - probably for the first time on that horse - shouldnt have expected that the door would be left open for him. Still not sure Harchibald would have gone through with it.

It was his brother Philip that won the first race.

fade2black

Morgans wrote:

It was his brother Philip that won the first race.

Really? My mistake so, I was watching in a pub and was listening through a crowd.

With regards Harchibald, I think it's hard to criticize a jockey for split decisions but as Sjones said there really wasn't a gap there so it was a strange move.

It was his first error on that particular horse though it has to be said

scojones

fade2black wrote:

With regards Harchibald, I think it's hard to criticize a jockey for split decisions but as Sjones said there really wasn't a gap there so it was a strange move.

Strange indeed, he's retired for the day.

scojones

3 day riding ban for Carberry for careless riding - going for a gap that didn't exist.

TwistsAndTurns

FADE TO BLACK

What a weekend to start a thread on Paul Carberry 2 massive rides and 2 massive talking points. Too late on Beef and Salmom? and the gap that never was on Harchibald? as I said myself early on in this thread, big winners on big race days have seem to dried up for him, it seems to be all or nothing with the way this guy rides..........I hope both trainers and owners are willing to give him the benefit of the doubt otherwise he may well have lost a least one of these fine rides.:(

fade2black

It really is all about opinions eirebhoys and that's just what I was looking for with this thread. He wouldn't have these horses in the first place if the trainers didn't think he was a talent in the saddle but a couple of rides he has given horses of late has called for at least a discussion on the matter...

Healio

sjones wrote:

3 day riding ban for Carberry for careless riding - going for a gap that didn't exist.

Well three days is fair id say, it was more that the gap closed up than that it was non-existent. For a few strides harchibald seemed to be on terms with brave inca, but again (maybe) harchibald didnt want to go to the front, and the subsequent bump into the rails occured.

Corben Dallas

only saw the BoS ride yesterday, picked out Kingscliff B4 the race (didnt get on ) ah well.... didnt think KKing would do it.

(IMO) Carberry did give the horse a good ride. this isnt helped by the horse being a nag, which is v prone to mistakes over fences, BoS has never obliged and owes me €'s.

Form memory in either the last Chelts Gold Cup or one B4 PPower did a money back if BoS loses to Best Mate or if Bos wins they refund all losing bets.(or some such variable) (*note to punters if PP ever do a special on a horse back another horse) and as usual it fell/clattered into a fence >result for PP!

Thru to form BoS hit a fence badly out theback on Sat and was lucky to still have a jockey onboard. Aside form the poor jumping,(horses fault?) Carberry didnt get the horse up soon enough and had pace left if he had tracked the leaders better, BoS finished quickly but came from too far back>>> jockeys fault.

califano

If i was an owner and wanted my horse to have a good introduction to fences or hurdles then no better man than Carbury. He's a stylish jockey and overall a very good jockey but one of the last i would want onboard in a driving finish.

His stalking the leader with a double handfull tactics sometimes irritates me because eventually when his mount does come under the cosh he's found wanting.

Redlancer

Boys this whole arguement about Paul Carberry is pointless. In my opinion he is a great rider and that is what most people with any inside think too. Carberry ride on Wild Passion has ok to me, Justified was clearly the better horse and I dont think he was too hard on him on the run. I had alot on Wild Passion and didnt think I had much to complain about he just wasnt ready seemed sluggish and anyone who rode him would have struggled.

Lots of riders do exactly the same as Paul Carberry for example Ruby Walsh and Timmy Murphy both play waiting games too and hold up horses they are on board. For example would everyone be slating Ruby Walsh for his ride on Hedgehunter if Clann Royal had not been taken out. There is no way he would have caught AP if Clann Royal wasnt interferred with. Yes Carberry is arrogant but dont confuse that with his riding ability which is top notch

fade2black

So this argument is pointless because YOU think he's god's gift to horses?

plonk

I have met the man, I was in aintree and fairyhouse when he won on Bobbyjo who wasnt the best of horses but there is no doubt in my mind that if Paul Carberry wasnt riding him he wouldnt have won

scojones

Paul Carberry is rubbish. Today, in the 2.20 at Thurles, he was riding Campanella, who is a horse who could easily win the 2.20 by about 20 or 30 lenghts, if asked to do so. Paul, one furlong out, looked behind his left to see nothing coming, so he eased up on the horse, never whipped it, he barely held onto it. But, up his other side, came Sir Frederick to take it about 20 yrds from the finish. Paul never saw it coming, because he never bothered to look.

I am sick to death of jockey's easing up on horses towards the finish because they think they have the race won. And I'm sick to death of Paul Carberry. This is a very fueled post - but it is a very serious one. You cannot possibly defend this clown after that ride.

Redlancer

This arguement is pointless because you only have to look at what he has achieved to know he is a great talent.Also in my opinion he is the only jockey with a rain who closed door on Best Mate as much as possible two years ago when evryone else just rolled over.

On the big day you need a big show off with talent and to my mind they are Timmy Murphy and Paul Carberry.Otherwise the ultimate pro in AP

ziggy

This post has been deleted.

Morgans

Saw the race with campanella today. Repeated on ATR. I dont want to be insulting or anything here, but when I read the post, i thought Jesus, Carberry is in the sh1t now, and I was surprised nothing was mentioned on any of the other racing forums about a Carberry screw up, or nothing in the immediate Sportinglife reports. I needed to see this for myself.

I dont think that Campanella was given the greatest ride, and he could have leathered the arse off the horse on the run from the second last to the last. He wasnt motionless on the horse, he was niggling along in front but there is an arguement to be made that he should have kicked on and made use of being in front at that stage. I think the horse was probably doing his best at the time, and basicially couldnt go any faster. Whipping a horse is mostly not an attempt to get a horse to go quicker, it is an attempt to stop it from slowing down - and there is a major differences. Most horses will accelerate on the bridle. Its when fatigue sets in and they want to slow down, that the whip is a 'reminder' to keep their mind on what they are doing, and despite how it looks to the betting office hacks, given a horse the mccpy treatment probably results in one in ten results being effected. The downsides of given young horses hard races are huge for connections. s many horses are soured by the experience and never really are in love with the game afterwards, as justify the punishment for the short term gain.

It looked as if Campanella would win easily two out, but the winner as was said in the Racing Post commentary - came with a wet sail. he was a strong stayer and there was very little IMO that Carberry could have done differently to make his horse win - let alone costing the horse 20 to 30 lengths. IMO he never eased up on the horse, he kept nigglind away - he didnt get serious wiht the horse, and ddint really go for the whip - hands and heels between teh last two- but not hard on the horse is fair. I dont think he was caught looking the wrong way. If he saw Sir Frederick, he was coming at such a pace, that he wouldnt have been able to do anything about it.

Obviously its ok for you to think differently, but I must say that to me, one of the main reasons I dont go into bookies anymore is because of the lads in there who think that everyone of their horses that they back is the best horse in the race, and if only they were the jockey they would have done differently and would have won.

I'm not saying that this is the case here sjones, (i dont know if you bet on the horse) but what I would say is that the jockey is a factor in the horses chance of winning a race. If it is your opinion that a jockey is no good, dont bet on his rides. Factor it in before you bet. Therefore if you think that it is teh jockeys fault that a horse doesnt win, you have considered this before the race. If you back Paul Carberry ride and he screws up again for you, its not Paul Carbery's fault, its yours for backing the useless jockey.

I'm sure that Carberry will make mistakes, and Harchibald was one - not that Harchibald didnt win the race, he mightnt have done in any case, but because he never gave the horse the chance to win the race. Campanella wasnt a bad ride IMO, beaten by the better horse. Had he kicked harder on the run between the second last and last he may have had an extra length lead on the winner jumping the last, but it wouldnt have made any difference to the result. Hence no outcry from any of the racing media.

fade2black

A good argument Morgans. Bookies are full of people talking through their pockets and it's a sickening thing to have to listen to someone who hasn't a clue what they're talking about when they abuse the pilots. I have, on many occasions, been forced to listen to people shouting and cursing at jockeys to push their horse on etc...that's grand, but on many occasions I've heard people shout things like..."come on Henderson..get him up there...or push him stoute...." cause they looked at the paper and thought the trainer was the jockey. Wanting to see a race the other day I had to listen to a guy cheering some jockey called callaghan on...It was Neill Callan...maybe I'm being harsh on that one but it annoyed me nevertheless.

The point is, I was speaking through my pockets with this thread and I wanted to see if people thought that Carberry could actually, when the dust settles on the losing bet, be faltering lately with his rides. True, he wouldn't be where he is today if he wasn't talented but I believe there have been enough reasons of late to at least have a discussion on the matter.

As for Campanella, well I got a call that morning telling me that he would win, simple as. (I couldn't get near a computer, luckily as it turned out)...what did I think of the ride? Well I didn't watch any replays...but I believe Carberry thought he was on the winning horse too and felt he just needed to be nudged out to the line. It didn't look like he eased the horse down and he didn't get too serious with him cause I don't think he thought he needed to. Que sera sera