Piezo rig... would this work?

Karl Hungus

Anywho, as I hope to get a fishman piezo bridge for my Tokai at some stage, and possibly get a Music Man Petrucci with piezo electronics sometime next year, I was thinking about amp setups, and wondering about the practically.

Basically, my concept was guitar -> amp switcher -> two amps (one acoustic) - > one speaker cabinet.
Is that possible?

I know having the piezo signal going to the PA is the most popular and practical one, but I'd just like to know if my concept is possible or not, as it just popped into my head today. Any other setup ideas for piezo guitars would be welcome too.

Doctor J

That's perfectly feasable. Though you might consider how you're going to switch between the two. Two outputs on your guitar would be the easiest (with the possibility to blend through one output where required) and merely use a footswitch to active one line or the other, rather than having to flick a switch on the guitar and activate a footswitch at the same time. Also, strongly consider an onboard eq for the piezo, it makes a world of difference.

Eoin Madsen

I'm not sure the end stage would work tbh. What kind of amps? I really wouldn't plug two amps into one cab, even if there's no signal going into one of them. The alternative is to switch the cab connection as well, which is feasible, but means one amp is unloaded all the time. I think it'd work whichever way you do it, but I don't think it'd be healthy for the gear.

Why do you want a piezo? Have you a specific sound in mind? I don't think it wouldn't sound very "piezo" going through a guitar cab anyway.

Doctor J

Something like these, I think he means...

Karl Hungus

Doctor J wrote:

That's perfectly feasable. Though you might consider how you're going to switch between the two. Two outputs on your guitar would be the easiest (with the possibility to blend through one output where required) and merely use a footswitch to active one line or the other, rather than having to flick a switch on the guitar and activate a footswitch at the same time. Also, strongly consider an onboard eq for the piezo, it makes a world of difference.

An amp switcher would be needed if there was one output. I know there's two on the Ernie Ball Petrucci, but I think the whole Fishman setup is a bit different. I don't think there's any kind of EQ or anything for the piezo, just a single knob that's needed.

As far as I know, with the Petrucci I could just have two leads going to either amp, and just the switch on the guitar itself.

Doctor J

Karl Hungus wrote:

As far as I know, with the Petrucci I could just have two leads going to either amp, and just the switch on the guitar itself.

That's the way it is on the 2120, plus with EQ. I'm not sure if the switch kills the output of, say the magnetic pickups when the piezo is selected for example. I haven't actually tried mine yet through the two outputs to two amps simoultaneously :v:

You should definitely look into some sort of EQ circuit for the Fishman, if that's what you choose. It doesn't have to be integrated, just the output of the piezo goes into the EQ on it's way out. Easy peasy.

Karl Hungus

Eoin Madsen wrote:

I'm not sure the end stage would work tbh. What kind of amps? I really wouldn't plug two amps into one cab, even if there's no signal going into one of them. The alternative is to switch the cab connection as well, which is feasible, but means one amp is unloaded all the time. I think it'd work whichever way you do it, but I don't think it'd be healthy for the gear.

Why do you want a piezo? Have you a specific sound in mind? I don't think it wouldn't sound very "piezo" going through a guitar cab anyway.

Yes, I've a sound in mind. Can't say I'd see why the cab would make much of a difference to the acoustic sound, as long as the amp it's going to is an acoustic one.

I was looking at this, so two seperate amp setups entirely? I think the only problem would be micing up both amp, which seems a bit overly complicated. The way I was thinking of would be just having the one cab mic'd

Doctor J wrote:

You should definitely look into some sort of EQ circuit for the Fishman, if that's what you choose. It doesn't have to be integrated, just the output of the piezo goes into the EQ on it's way out. Easy peasy.

EQ circuit? I know there's the Fishman powerchip, but I might have to look into that a bit more.

Eoin Madsen

Doctor J wrote:

Something like these, I think he means...

And play normal pickups through a cab with a HF driver? That would sound interesting.

Karl Hungus

Eoin Madsen wrote:

And play normal pickups through a cab with a HF driver? That would sound interesting.

HF Driver?

No, I think normal pickups would go to the regular guitar amp, and the cab would be a regular one too. Celestion V30s preferably.

Eoin Madsen

Karl Hungus wrote:

HF Driver?

Tweeter.

Are you talking about having one amp in an acoustic combo cab (with a tweeter) and one amp going into a guitar cab? Or two amps going into one guitar cab?

Karl Hungus

Eoin Madsen wrote:

Tweeter.

Are you talking about having one amp in an acoustic combo cab (with a tweeter) and one amp going into a guitar cab? Or two amps going into one guitar cab?

Ah right.

Well, the original idea was to have two amps going into one guitar cab.

Eoin Madsen

The thing with an "acoustic amp" is that it's designed for a full range signal (ie a piezo) so there's a tweeter to extended the output frequency response up to at least 17khz. A normal guitar cab goes to about about 5kHz (not meaning it can't reproduce higher, but that there's a significant fall off). The issue of micing is a moot point, because you can't mic an acoustic amp properly on account of it having said tweeter. Unless you're going to mic the tweeter as well, it might as well be a normal guitar cab. In which case you might as well put both through the same amp, since the actual amplifiers aren't likely to be all that different excepting perhaps the input impedance (the piezo will behave more like an active pickup afaik).

More to the point, why are you going to this trouble? What is the sound you're going for and why do you need a piezo to do it? Going DI on the piezo is more logical, since that's what it was designed to do. You get a very different sound through a guitar amp which I suppose you might want. But acoustic amps don't really fit in anywhere that I can see.

Johnny Storm

This discussion on the Parker guitar forum might be of help.

Karl Hungus

Eoin Madsen wrote:

More to the point, why are you going to this trouble? What is the sound you're going for and why do you need a piezo to do it? Going DI on the piezo is more logical, since that's what it was designed to do. You get a very different sound through a guitar amp which I suppose you might want. But acoustic amps don't really fit in anywhere that I can see.

Well, first of, I'm not going to this trouble. It's just something that popped into my head and I was wondering if it was possible, that's all. As for what sound I'm going for, I'm looking to change to an acoustic sound mid-song, akin to Opeth.

Johnny Storm

If you are interested in DIY Here's a guy who built his own splitter box to route the pizza and magnetic pup signals to different amps

Eoin Madsen

Sorry, I meant "why are you considering going to this trouble". Anyway, I think switching from amp setup to piezo DI is probably going to yield as good results as anything more convoluted would.

Rustar

Have you considered one of these, KH?
That goldtop with the trem is lookin' pretty sweet....seems they've added some new colors and the trem since last time I looked.

http://www.line6.com/variax/photogallery.html

Doctor J

Johnny Storm wrote:

box to route the pizza

:v:

Karl Hungus

Rustar wrote:

Have you considered one of these, KH?
That goldtop with the trem is lookin' pretty sweet....seems they've added some new colors and the trem since last time I looked.

http://www.line6.com/variax/photogallery.html

NO! Gah... Modeling guitars... No sir. :v:

Rustar

I think software modeling is the cat's pee-jamas...people just don't understand that it doesn't work when you turn it up to 11, can't get realistic sounds that way.

Proof of its goodness? I point your attention to....the Microcube!

Johnny Storm

Doctor J wrote:

:v:

I find you get a better tone with Domino's

Karl Hungus

Rustar wrote:

I think software modeling is the cat's pee-jamas...people just don't understand that it doesn't work when you turn it up to 11, can't get realistic sounds that way.

Proof of its goodness? I point your attention to....the Microcube!

I'm sure you can appreciate the difference between a modeling amp, and a modeling guitar. You can't model the feel of a guitar, or the sound of different pickups (Well, maybe nobody has tried that one yet).

Hey, modeling amps, great fun. Aswell as the microcube, I've got a Behringer V-Amp pro here, and it's great for messing around with. I most certainly wouldn't gig with it though. I see the variax guitars as something good for begginers, or players that might want to try playing around with a load of different guitars might sound like without the expense. Personally, if I want to play a Les Paul, I'll play a Les Paul.

Eoin Madsen

Karl Hungus wrote:

I'm sure you can appreciate the difference between a modeling amp, and a modeling guitar. You can't model the feel of a guitar, or the sound of different pickups (Well, maybe nobody has tried that one yet).

Not really. There are those who say you can't model the feel of an amp. Since I've played a few amps with very distinctive "feels" I can certainly understand where they're coming from.

Guitar modelling does presumably include pickup modelling as well.

Rustar

The videos on the the site show them whacking guitars with a ball-peen hammer while they watch a scope. Looks pretty scienterrific, but you be the judge.
As far as I'm concerned, if someone in the next room couldn't tell the difference, then it works.

Karl Hungus

Eoin Madsen wrote:

Not really. There are those who say you can't model the feel of an amp. Since I've played a few amps with very distinctive "feels" I can certainly understand where they're coming from.

Guitar modelling does presumably include pickup modelling as well.

No, I mean the physical feel of a guitar. They're a very certain something about a Les Paul, the way it feels, the way it vibrates, the way it plays. So, even if a Variax could model the sound of a Les Paul with 100% accuracy, it would hardly feel or play like one, it would just sound like one.

I don't think they'd include pickup modeling really. Does it model an explorer, with Seymour Duncans, or something?

Rustar

Karl Hungus wrote:

No, I mean the physical feel of a guitar. They're a very certain something about a Les Paul, the way it feels, the way it vibrates, the way it plays. So, even if a Variax could model the sound of a Les Paul with 100% accuracy, it would hardly feel or play like one, it would just sound like one.

I don't think they'd include pickup modeling really. Does it model an explorer, with Seymour Duncans, or something?

Ahh, I misunderstood your semantics. It appears you can actually choose and create different guitar sounds by selecting different bodies, pickups, pu placement, etc. in software and actually downloading them to the guitar!

http://www.line6.com/variax/workbench.html

Karl Hungus

Rustar wrote:

Ahh, I misunderstood your semantics. It appears you can actually choose and create different guitar sounds by selecting different bodies, pickups, pu placement, etc. in software and actually downloading them to the guitar!

http://www.line6.com/variax/workbench.html

Right you are so. Must be very handy to play around with all kinds of different settings then, aye?

Still, I'm really not sold on the whole modeling thing for anything other than bedroom playing. As much as I love the Microcube, I've played a number of larger modeling amps such as the Flextone 3, and Spider 2 (At Fey's request), and dear jesus did the Flextone sound bad... Absolute ass. The Spider wasn't much better really.

I don't really find modeling that accurate either. Hell, the Rectifier setting on the microcube really doesn't sound like any kind of Rectifier I've ever heard, it's just a distortion channel for all intents and purposes. Same goes for what's on my V-Amp Pro.

Rustar

Karl Hungus wrote:

Hell, the Rectifier setting on the microcube really doesn't sound like any kind of Rectifier I've ever heard, it's just a distortion channel for all intents and purposes.

Heheh, instead of 'brit combo', 'classic stack', and 'r-fier', they could have just put 'blues', 'rock', and 'metal', and I'd still be happy!