kickers.....

roryc

Been looking over my game a lot lately and realised that I am losing an AWFUL lot of pots on kickers. Anyone else have this problem? I seem to always LOSE on a kicker and rarely win on them.

My main problem is say I'm holding K2 and limp in, and the flop comes KK4 rainbow. The kickers don't even come into my head at this stage, although I know I should be thinking about it. Another problem is flopping an A when short-handed on a draw free flop. I'll presume once I have the ace, and I'm sure no-one has 2 pair/ set, that I have the best. I seem to be playing the hand right, thinking I'm trapping them, and then up losing it on a kicker...

I also seem to be calling down pots with top pair and losing on the kicker a lot like here. This hand is typical of my play the last while.


PokerStars Game #3064611313: Tournament #15144942, Hold'em No Limit - Level II

(15/30) - 2005/11/15 - 09:39:31 (ET)
Table '15144942 1' Seat #8 is the button
Seat 2: andola1 (1305 in chips)
Seat 3: Gryphix (2385 in chips)
Seat 4: Thunder Rok (1440 in chips)
Seat 5: granvillea (375 in chips)
Seat 6: Iznogood (1140 in chips)
Seat 7: DaddyHall (1615 in chips)
Seat 8: roryc69 (1960 in chips)
Seat 9: Pellefant (1440 in chips)
Pellefant: posts small blind 15
andola1: posts big blind 30

*** HOLE CARDS ***
Dealt to roryc69 [Qc Kd]
Gryphix: folds
Thunder Rok: folds
granvillea: folds
Iznogood: folds
DaddyHall: raises 60 to 90
roryc69: calls 90
Pellefant: folds
andola1: folds

*** FLOP *** [Kh Ts 4c]
DaddyHall: checks
roryc69: checks

*** TURN *** [Kh Ts 4c] [Jh]
DaddyHall: bets 120
roryc69: calls 120

*** RIVER *** [Kh Ts 4c Jh] [2s]

DaddyHall: bets 210
roryc69: calls 210

*** SHOW DOWN ***
DaddyHall: shows [Ac Ks] (a pair of Kings)
roryc69: shows [Qc Kd] (a pair of Kings - lower kicker)
DaddyHall collected 885 from pot

*** SUMMARY ***
Total pot 885 | Rake 0
Board [Kh Ts 4c Jh 2s]
Seat 8: roryc69 (button) showed [Qc Kd] and lost with a pair of Kings
Seat 9: Pellefant (small blind) folded before Flop


I know I should have folded and played the hand badly but I had put him on a high ace and was hoping he had A10 or AJ.


Just wondering what situations the kicker plays an important part when deciding whether to call, and when would you not think about it as much, such as flopping trips.

Rnger

I'm not trying to smart but there seems to a simple solution to this. Dont limp with K2.
I never limp a lone king. Your aiming for hitting two pair on the flop with a hand like this. Same goes for Ax(x being 2-9). These hands should only be limped if theyre suited and you can get in cheaply in a multiway pot imo... now how often does that happen?

Shortstack

I wouldn't limp with K2 anyway Rory, Sooted or not you are asking for trouble.

As far as the KQ hand goes if you put him on a big Ace then why does'nt AK factor? Instead of check calling try betting and raising. If you bet the flop and got check raised I doubt you would have called and you would have lost less.

KQ is a good hand in an unraised pot where you are less likely to come against AK. It is also good to be the raiser with it in late position but it is not the best to be calling raises with.

roryc

Yeh, I was actually just picking a random hand there, I wouldn't normally limp with K2, maybe on the BB! I just mean limping in with average hands (which I do a lot when I have a big stack) and then hitting the flop, but losing on a kicker.

Maybe 78 suited, definite limping hand
Flop comes 882 (rainbow).... Turn 5.. someone goes all in.
- Surely the kicker wouldn't even cross your mind here?

Tackle

After getting outkicked lots of times when I started playing I now generally have to have a 10, sometimes 9, or better kicker with my A, K, Q, J's before I'll see a flop with them. If I end up loosing with K10 on the river to KJ, I don't mind, that's poker, but there's no excuse for loosing to KJ with something like K5. I think 10 is a good cut off point shorthanded.
If I flop trips with a low kicker I'll be fairly cautious and be ready to fold on any street to a big reraise/bet. I definately won't be betting big with it as I only expect to win a small pot if no-one else has the trips, and I don't want to loose a big one if they do.

careca

Shortstack wrote:

As far as the KQ hand goes if you put him on a big Ace then why does'nt AK factor? .

I think Hector called it spot on, in one thread, when he said the reason you put a player on certain hands is because it suits you to do so. Eg If you have 1010 and there is a huge raise before you, its nice to put him/her on AK because you're ahead. I was guilty of the same thing with kickers Roryc and couldn't believe my 'bad luck' until I realised I should never have been in the pot in the first place or alternatively I should have given my opponents hand more thought.

roryc

Shortstack wrote:

As far as the KQ hand goes if you put him on a big Ace then why does'nt AK factor? Instead of check calling try betting and raising. If you bet the flop and got check raised I doubt you would have called and you would have lost less.

KQ is a good hand in an unraised pot where you are less likely to come against AK. It is also good to be the raiser with it in late position but it is not the best to be calling raises with.

AK obviously did factor but I felt he would have bet more holding top pair top kicker. I had been playing on the table for a while and he seemed to bet over the top with good hands, which was why I felt there was sufficient chance that he was holding AJ or A10, or possibly even QQ.

Your right about betting the flop though.If I'd been re-raised i would have folded

Also I'm not going to put the fact that I lose on kickers down to luck. I feel that I'm not THINKING enough about the chance that I could lose on a kicker, unlikely as it may seem.

ntlbell

roryc wrote:

Yeh, I was actually just picking a random hand there, I wouldn't normally limp with K2, maybe on the BB! I just mean limping in with average hands (which I do a lot when I have a big stack) and then hitting the flop, but losing on a kicker.

Maybe 78 suited, definite limping hand
Flop comes 882 (rainbow).... Turn 5.. someone goes all in.
- Surely the kicker wouldn't even cross your mind here?

The kicker wouldn't be on my mind as much as the action in front of me but that much action on that sort of flop would definitley have it crossing my mind!

Tackle

roryc wrote:

Maybe 78 suited, definite limping hand
Flop comes 882 (rainbow).... Turn 5.. someone goes all in.
- Surely the kicker wouldn't even cross your mind here?

Depends on the opponent, but I wouldn't call here against anyone half decent. You often see a fish doing that with an AA or KK and getting cleaned out but I don't see what anyone else could be doing it with that you could beat.

NickyOD

I can't understand why you would check this flop.

roryc

Ive got to stop making hands up on the spot to get a point across......

My main point is how often you would think about a kicker if you flopped a monster, but there is a lot of action ahead of you.

If someone went all in on the flop in that hand would you call? Obviously the standard of your opponent is important, but my problem seems to be that I wouldn't even think twice about folding in most of these situations.

In the 78 situation;
My thinking seems to be the chances of the other player holdin 82 or 22 are slim, although possible. If he has 89, 810, or 8J then the turn could come AK, AQ, QK etc for a split pot, and if he DOES have A8 K8 Q8 then I still have a chance of split pot if board pairs or a 2 hits, and I can still win it if I hit a 7.

So if he pushes on the flop or the turn (5), then I will usually call without giving too much consideration to the kicker.

I presume this 'logic' is flawed, and probably the reason I am losing on kickers more than I should...

The Troll

I'm not sure if i'd have it in me to fold top set on the flop even with a rag kicker, unless i knew my opps and had a read that they were playing with a boat or A8, K8 etc.

Rnger

The Troll wrote:

I'm not sure if i'd have it in me to fold top set on the flop even with a rag kicker, unless i knew my opps and had a read that they were playing with a boat or A8, K8 etc.

Yeah i would only fold i knew i was beaten aswel :v:

willis

rory u say 78 etc definite limping hand however when u limp into a pot u have absolutely no idea what any of the other players are holding so unless you flop the nuts then u can easily get into trouble, the blinds can have any two. I hardly ever limp in sttts/mtts, too dangerous. if im gonna play 7 8 ill raise with it in late position otherwise i fold. so many people go broke limpin in with suited connectors, they hold 78 flop is 5 7 8 with 2 hearts, they think theyve a monster...in a 6way pot this is such a tricky hand to play. The only way u should be having kicker trouble is by playing hands that you shouldnt. fair enough if u hold qk and flop comes k high and someeone has ak, apart from that though i dont think there can be many excuses for kicker trouble. just my 2 cents