Seeing cheap flops vs never limping

corblimey

aka The more I read about poker, the less I know.

As a novice, I read just about everything I can get my hands on, but there's a couple ideas that seem, to me, sort of contradictory. In the early stages of the tournament, I've read that you should rock it, never limp in, play premium hands only and when you do, raise to 3BBs.

However, I've also seen several articles telling me that I should try and see cheap flops whenever possible, esp with drawing hands or small pp. I would assume this to mean that if the pot isn't raised, I should just call.

Say I have A9o in lp. The pot is raised to 3BB. I would always muck this hand. But if the pot isn't raised, I would enter the pot. But do I just limp in, or raise? I wouldn't call a 3BB raise, so why would I bet a 3BB raise? I'm just a little confused, and some advice would be helpful.

Hectorjelly

I can only imagine the responses you will get to this!

You need to know what your objectives are in any poker game, and before the play of any hand before answering it. Different hands are good for different situations.

If its a cash game against loose players then you will probably be interested in stacking them, by hitting a great hand when they hit a good hand. A9o is a very bad hand for this and so should be folded. Against tight players A9o is a better hand because you are much less likely to get to a showdown. In fact your profit will come from your raising rather than your hands inherint strength - clearly you cant make a profit from loose players by trying to bully them.

If its a tournament and the the blinds are quite high then A9o is usefull in late position because you are likely to have the best hand. Your objective is to take down the blinds preflop - so raising is best.

I probably havent explained this properly, but this is absolutely key to understanding poker IMO.

corblimey

sorry, hj, thought I was clear in my op: it's the early stages of a tourney and blinds are small. This is where I believe I always play too tight, because I'm not willing to put 3BBs down on a marginal hand like A9 and I muck it if the pot is opened to me. I then find that I've got a pretty poor stack in relation to people who are seeing a lot of pots with marginal hands.

I know that who's ahead of me has a bearing on it all, but really at this stage, I have no read on my opponents - few hands are shown down, and first to bet usually takes the pot. My main concern is with not willing to put too much chips into a marginal hand while maybe I should be.

Hectorjelly

corblimey wrote:

sorry, hj, thought I was clear in my op: it's the early stages of a tourney and blinds are small. This is where I believe I always play too tight, because I'm not willing to put 3BBs down on a marginal hand like A9 and I muck it if the pot is opened to me. I then find that I've got a pretty poor stack in relation to people who are seeing a lot of pots with marginal hands.

I know that who's ahead of me has a bearing on it all, but really at this stage, I have no read on my opponents - few hands are shown down, and first to bet usually takes the pot. My main concern is with not willing to put too much chips into a marginal hand while maybe I should be.

In the early stages of a tournament do you think the blinds are worth fighting for?

Culchie

corblimey wrote:

sorry, hj, thought I was clear in my op: it's the early stages of a tourney and blinds are small. This is where I believe I always play too tight, because I'm not willing to put 3BBs down on a marginal hand like A9 and I muck it if the pot is opened to me. I then find that I've got a pretty poor stack in relation to people who are seeing a lot of pots with marginal hands.

I know that who's ahead of me has a bearing on it all, but really at this stage, I have no read on my opponents - few hands are shown down, and first to bet usually takes the pot. My main concern is with not willing to put too much chips into a marginal hand while maybe I should be.

Play like a rock early in a tournament.

(a) The blinds are not worth fighting for, only raise with a premium hand

(b) Whilst you are sitting like a rock, even if you haven't played a hand with 90-95% of your starting stack, other people (your opponenets )are knocking themselves out (50% of the field is normally gone with one hour in a 1000 MTT)

(c) Your 'rock' image will stand to you later, when the blinds are worth stealing, and any bet you make will carry substance

You have to loosen up as the tournament progresses.

bohsman

If its a loose game it can be worth limping in with suited connectors if you stand to win a large pot especially in rebuy tournaments, but generally you are better off sitting back and watching how everyone else is playing

The Troll

In cash games limping would be more useful with marginal hands. I'd never do it early in tournament play.

padser

Early tournie id be inclined to limp if there are 2/3 limpers and its unraised - but only with genuine drawing hand such as suited connectors. not with A9 because what are you hoping to hit? andthing below AQ just geting you into trouble i find.


Other than that id agree with culchie and just play like a rock.

RuggieBear

well, i know i'm very much a newbie/fish but the way i play mtts is to call cheap flops early on and hope to get a monster which you can then knock players out with and build up a nice stack to then play tight in the middle of the tourney.

i usually use up to a third of my initial stack to "gamble" with and if i haven't hit anything i'll play properly with the rest.

Also makes the rest of the table think you are a lunatic:D

Amaru

corblimey wrote:

Say I have A9o in lp. The pot is raised to 3BB. I would always muck this hand. But if the pot isn't raised, I would enter the pot. But do I just limp in, or raise? I wouldn't call a 3BB raise, so why would I bet a 3BB raise? I'm just a little confused, and some advice would be helpful.

In general, with no read on players, you need a stronger hand to call with than to raise with. This is because hold em is a game of representation, you represent strength when you bet, even if you hold trash. You can't represent strength by calling, and you can't get somebody to fold by it either.

Culchie

Culchie wrote:

Play like a rock early in a tournament.

(a) The blinds are not worth fighting for, only raise with a premium hand

(b) Whilst you are sitting like a rock, even if you haven't played a hand with 90-95% of your starting stack, other people (your opponenets )are knocking themselves out (50% of the field is normally gone with one hour in a 1000 MTT)

(c) Your 'rock' image will stand to you later, when the blinds are worth stealing, and any bet you make will carry substance

You have to loosen up as the tournament progresses.

funnily enough i would advise the direct opposite to this, depending on how your table is of course, tight wise.
It will often come down to the buy in for the game, if its a freezout etc and you have to adjust to this.
in any game playing hands like J10, 78 suited etc I would advise to call with early on to small enough raises, but youve also got to get a read on your opponent, if he us loose or tight and how he generally plays.
your ace nine hand should be mucked to a raise unless you feel its a steel in any game, use the Gap concept to a degree when selecting your weaker hands to play against raises.

I feel that showing over weaker cards early on will get you paid later on your big hands. By culchies method people will think your a rock, but does that mean they will fold when you bet?....it may give you better opportunity to bluff, but this is a more risky strategy come the end of a tournament

ntlbell

corblimey wrote:

As a novice, I read just about everything I can get my hands on, but there's a couple ideas that seem, to me, sort of contradictory. In the early stages of the tournament, I've read that you should rock it, never limp in, play premium hands only and when you do, raise to 3BBs.

However, I've also seen several articles telling me that I should try and see cheap flops whenever possible, esp with drawing hands or small pp. I would assume this to mean that if the pot isn't raised, I should just call.

Say I have A9o in lp. The pot is raised to 3BB. I would always muck this hand. But if the pot isn't raised, I would enter the pot. But do I just limp in, or raise? I wouldn't call a 3BB raise, so why would I bet a 3BB raise? I'm just a little confused, and some advice would be helpful.

You can't say _never_ limp in, everytime you sit at a table live or online you shouldn't really have a set plan, sit out a few hands and watch how the table is playing and adjust accordingly.

If your in LP with A9 and MP has bet 3XBB he/she is showing strength even with players left to act, here a good player will more than likley have a hand so you would normally (or at least I would) throw A9 away.

Where as if no one has shown strength and your in LP and you _really_ want to play A9 then you raise to get rid of anyone trying to come into the hand for cheap with muck.

As Hector has all ready said it depends on the situation and like most questions on this forum there's a hundred different ways to answer it.