Playing TPTK out of position better

NickyOD

AQ is a hand I really hate getting dealt in early position. This situation comes up a lot for me in SnGs and I find it harder to play it when the blinds are small than when I can be the preflop aggressor when the blinds are larger and there are less oponents, becuase early in the SnG the pots are multiway and there's a larger range of hands I could be up against.

Lets say you're in a 10 handed SnG and second to act you limp in with AQs then the player 2 to your left raises to 45 (blinds 10/15 and everyone has roughly 1000 chips) 2 other players call and you call.

Then flop is Q T 7 wuth 2 hearts and you don't have one. First to act on the flop how should you proceed with 3 players to act behind you? There are 205 chips in the pot. If you bet and get called you will almost certainly end up having half your chips in the pot if you want to try and take it down on the turn. So would check calling all the way until there is real danger be a better strategy or what about check calling the flop then leading the turn if its not likely to have helped anyone? Is there a solid argument for folding preflop or should I open raise preflop even though the table is likely to be loose and the blinds are small?

Thoughts?

Hectorjelly

I would fold to the raise preflop.

Ste05

OK this turned out longer than I anticipated but anyway, I hope this makes sense

Early in a tournament, I don't think I'd ever limp with it in early position, I think I'd raise 3-4BB's or fold,

IMHO if you only limp in with it you're using it as a drawing hand, my reasons for saying this is that there's just so many things you have to consider post flop if you don't make a good draw.

Although no one will give you credit for an A if one falls on the flop, which can be good and profitable, but with so many other possible raggedy hands in the pot, you've no idea what anyone has, they could literally have any 2.

By limping you'll be up against more players, possibly 4 or 5, they will call thinking that your early position limp might give them protection from a raise, if they are decent players, if they're fish, they just think "nice one, a cheap flop, I'll have a look!!" and so making nearly all drawing hands playable and any 2 cards a possibility. (Because it's early you don't know who the fish are and who the good players are yet, unless you've played against them before....

So taking some examples .... If a draw, that you don't have hits, (say 9s,8s,5h) you can be pretty sure at least one of them has it, (even Ah, 7h,6c) what do you do on either of these???

If an A falls (say example 2 above) and you raise and are then re-raised - you have to commit alot more chips with very little, if any information, you don't know what they have, if you check and are raised do you call or re-raise - again committing too many chips with little to no information. Just tricky to play - remember you may not have played with this guy before!!!

Even if an A falls on an unconnected board, you still have to be worried because Axs's will be in the pot too and they might have hit 2 pair....

Jaysus there's so many things you need to be mindful of, I could go on for hours here, but by limping it just makes the whole hand really difficult to play unless you flop some kind of flush or draw, in which case it is a beautiful hand to play, but seeing as the odds on this happening are so big, I don't think it's a good play....

Maybe I'm just being pessimistic, and looking too deeply into things, and usually you'll raise and take down the pot (a pot that will be smaller than if you had raised and got called by 1 maybe even 2 players), but the times the above happens you could find yourself knocked out early in a tournament in which you were far and away the best player....

However, that's just my opinion and it may not apply at the higher levels but certainly at the lower levels this is how I'd play it especially early in a tournament as you outlined.

I am with you though in hating AQ, however I don't mind it as much if it's suited :rolleyes: (such a fish ), because in that case it has 2 potential ways of winning the pot - TPGK and drawing potential, however AQo, I absolutely hate, and could fold it in early position, early in a tournament without any reads on my opponents...

Ste05

This thread deserves more comments.......

Hectorjelly

Playing 1 pair out of position when you are not the preflop raiser is hard - there are no two ways about it. AQ is good at flopping 1 pair and not much else. Coupled with this its not very strong compared to the range of a normal preflop raise. Add to all of this the fact that cold calling raises is a unprofitable play anyway, and I cant see why you would call the raise in the 1st place.

Am I too tight?

jd

Ste05 wrote:

Early in a tournament, I don't think I'd ever limp with it in early position, I think I'd raise 3-4BB's or fold,

.

I'm crap at poker but I'd either raise or fold too....

Hectorjelly

jd wrote:

I'm crap at poker but I'd either raise or fold too....

I limp there probably 100% of the time. The blinds are low and arent worth fighting over, im much happier playing a small pot with a good (and disguised) hand. If I dont hit anything Im not putting a single more chip into the pot.

Once the blinds are higher its a whole different ball game.

jd

Hectorjelly wrote:

I limp there probably 100% of the time. The blinds are low and arent worth fighting over, im much happier playing a small pot with a good (and disguised) hand. If I dont hit anything Im not putting a single more chip into the pot.

Once the blinds are higher its a whole different ball game.

I would mean to fold about 85% or so of the time in this situation.
jd

NickyOD

Hectorjelly wrote:

I limp there probably 100% of the time. The blinds are low and arent worth fighting over, im much happier playing a small pot with a good (and disguised) hand. If I dont hit anything Im not putting a single more chip into the pot.

Once the blinds are higher its a whole different ball game.

Agree with you 100%. The thing though with the scenario above is I am getting almost 6-1 when it comes back around to me preflop. I can hardly fold for that price.