Ah but if it was online you would.......

ntlbell · 10-11-2005 12:34pm #1

I do my best not to moan on boards but this is starting to get on my wick a little bit.

Nearly every live game I sit down in I consntaly here the following.

"Ah, if this was online now you'd call that"

"If this was online now you would of raised there"

"Oh If this was online now that would of never happened!!"

I don't get it? I don't understand this concept, wtf has online got to do with it?

You get two cards...online doesn't change this

Random flop/turn river....online doesn't change this

Some donkey play some solid play....online doesn't change this.

Any thoughts?

Culchie · 10-11-2005 12:44pm

ntlbell wrote:

I do my best not to moan on boards but this is starting to get on my wick a little bit.

Nearly every live game I sit down in I consntaly here the following.

"Ah, if this was online now you'd call that"

"If this was online now you would of raised there"

"Oh If this was online now that would of never happened!!"

I don't get it? I don't understand this concept, wtf has online got to do with it?

You get two cards...online doesn't change this

Random flop/turn river....online doesn't change this

Some donkey play some solid play....online doesn't change this.

Any thoughts?

There is a big difference in on-line and live play IMO.

In fact you could say the only similarities are the basics...cards, position, chips,rules etc....

Live play brings in the human dynamics.
Instinct, body language comes alot more into play. It's harder to bluff in live play, or at least learn how to bluff, or have the balls to re-raise on a bluff.
I find it easier to read people and their hands in a live game.

As well as that, you have to bear in mind you are not receiving as many hands per blind level, and need to adjust accordingly, or you find that very soon you are under pressure from the blinds.

I agree that the comments you refer to are silly, but your question was an open ended one !

Lafortezza · 10-11-2005 12:58pm

If this was online you wouldn't post this.

roryc · 10-11-2005 12:58pm

I agree that the comments are stupid, but I must admit that its probably the way I think half the time! If I'm in a live game, say chasing a flush/ straight and a big bet it put into me, I sometimes find myself thinking "I would play it online but not nere"... and duly fold. Its as if I think I would have more chance of hitting online because of the 'magic river' and so on.....

I think the main reason for this is because when you're playing a live game you have things to keep you occupied. You watch how people play, betting patterns etc, so you PLAY differently than you would online. Its a much slower paced game. You don't limp in as much.

Also chasing hands is easier to do online as its just clicking a button. You don't have to count out the chips as in live play which usually gives you more time to think about the move.

I think everyone plays differently in a live game as they do online. Its a different game.

Lafortezza · 10-11-2005 1:05pm

As well as what rory said, if you play a bit looser online and chase the flushes and straights that you might not normally chase in a live game, even if you bust out you can always click a couple of times and join another stt/mtt or whatever.
If you chase in a live game then you better hit or you might only have a long trip home to look forward to.

Ste05 · 10-11-2005 1:07pm

roryc wrote:

Also chasing hands is easier to do online as its just clicking a button. You don't have to count out the chips as in live play which usually gives you more time to think about the move.

I think everyone plays differently in a live game as they do online. Its a different game.

I for one play pretty much the same, you're either getting odds to call or you're not, it doesn't matter where you're playing. By the sounds of this you're either folding when you should be calling in Live play or calling when you should be folding online.....:rolleyes:

EDIT: Having said that I don't play a whole lot live, but when I do the same rules and strategy apply....

roryc wrote:

I think the main reason for this is because when you're playing a live game you have things to keep you occupied. You watch how people play, betting patterns etc, so you PLAY differently

Why aren't you doing this online as well, it's the only way to get tells on your opponents???

roryc · 10-11-2005 1:20pm

Because I find it a lot easier to pick up tells in a live game. Sure you can sit and watch people, take notes etc. but in a $5 MTT is it really worth the effort? I find it EXTREMELY boring to sit at ONE table watching a hand that I'm not in.

I'm usually multi-tabling and surfing the internet at the same time. I take a few notes, but not much.

karlh · 10-11-2005 1:28pm

roryc wrote:

I think everyone plays differently in a live game as they do online. Its a different game.

gettin aces 3 times in 30 minutes always helps too i find

roryc · 10-11-2005 1:35pm

I'd love if that had been in a live game, I might have actually made some money

AA vs AA
AA beaten by QQ
AA beats (some random hand).

Ah only in online. Get aces three times win 1, lose 1, draw 1.......

Shockin isin't it!

I actually WON a hand with aces online!

ntlbell · 10-11-2005 1:42pm

Culchie wrote:

I agree that the comments you refer to are silly, but your question was an open ended one !

It was!

I'm not saying there's _no_ difference at all, but this is a recent example of the nonsense I'm talking about

Flop

9c 4h 10c

Turn

2h

River

6s

Player one shows QcJc

Player 2 shows K8

Player 1 says to 2 "If I was online I'd have hit my flush"

this is just nonsense talk.

made a boo boo on the hand

The Troll · 10-11-2005 1:44pm

My online/live games are fairly similar, though obviously I read players in a different way. I'd say I'm slightly more aggressive in online play.

ntlbell · 10-11-2005 1:54pm

Ste05 wrote:

I for one play pretty much the same, you're either getting odds to call or you're not, it doesn't matter where you're playing. By the sounds of this you're either folding when you should be calling in Live play or calling when you should be folding online.....:rolleyes:

EDIT: Having said that I don't play a whole lot live, but when I do the same rules and strategy apply....

Why aren't you doing this online as well, it's the only way to get tells on your opponents???

roryc wrote:

Also chasing hands is easier to do online as its just clicking a button. You don't have to count out the chips as in live play which usually gives you more time to think about the move.

This is exactly what I'm talking about Ste

WTF?? it's just clicking a button? and easier than counting chips? so if you're in the fitz you don't call because you might actually have to do some work, like count chips and place them across the line this is a valid reason not to chase?

umm eh OK!

roryc wrote:

I think the main reason for this is because when you're playing a live game you have things to keep you occupied. You watch how people play, betting patterns etc, so you PLAY differently

The biggest tells for me at least on or offline is betting patterens, which is something you can clearly see online and take note of, if it's not worth it to do in a $5 stt then why bother playing a $5 stt in the first place?

dear oh dear.

jimbling · 10-11-2005 2:02pm

ntlbell wrote:

This is exactly what I'm talking about Ste

WTF?? it's just clicking a button? and easier than counting chips? so if you're in the fitz you don't call because you might actually have to do some work, like count chips and place them across the line this is a valid reason not to chase?

umm eh OK!

I think what he meant by that is... while counting your chips you have more time to think about your move.. and may change your mind... where as online.. you sometimes make very rash decisions about calling / chasing / bluffing etc....

ntlbell · 10-11-2005 2:09pm

jimbling wrote:

I think what he meant by that is... while counting your chips you have more time to think about your move.. and may change your mind... where as online.. you sometimes make very rash decisions about calling / chasing / bluffing etc....

Doesn't make any sense to me, as Ste said, the odds are their to call or not, counting chips or clicking buttons shouldn't come into it.

Ste05 · 10-11-2005 2:10pm

jimbling wrote:

I think what he meant by that is... while counting your chips you have more time to think about your move.. and may change your mind... where as online.. you sometimes make very rash decisions about calling / chasing / bluffing etc....

This is the big problem I think, your mind should be made up, if you're chasing and you're getting odds, either direct or implied, etc. you call, if you're not then you fold, simple......

As you play a hand you should be aware of what you're doing and what you plan to do in the future of the hand based on what the flop brings, how you think it helped the opponent based on his probable hand range, his actions etc. alot of it is to do with expecting certain actions based on previous plays he/she has made, if he/she does something you weren't expecting then you need to reevaluate and this extra time can be invaluable...... But it shouldn't make you fold when you should call or call when you should fold......

EDIT: And we haven't even touched on raising yet.....:rolleyes: :rolleyes:

roryc · 10-11-2005 2:23pm

jimbling wrote:

I think what he meant by that is... while counting your chips you have more time to think about your move.. and may change your mind... where as online.. you sometimes make very rash decisions about calling / chasing / bluffing etc....

Thats exactly what I meant. I don't think people make as many rash decisions in a live game as they do online because its easier and faster to just click a button online.... Fair enough this shouldn't be a factor bit IT IS! MOST people play more hands online and will take bigger risks. This is down to many reasons; they might me multi-tabling, or maybe its at a low limit where they feel comfortable taking risks. I dont know.

The fact of the matter is people should treat online the same as live, but they don't. And I think the fact that people (for the most part) take more risks online, is why we see so much more bad beats online, because basically people play with muck...

And the reason I don't spend my time analysing people's play in a $5 MTT is because at that level the play is unpredictable and you are moved so often that I don't see the point in taking notes. If I'm playing a bigger game I will watch the table and take notes but at the smaller levels I think it is just too unpredictable.

Also there is A LOT more to poker than simply 'odds'. You don't have your mind made up instantly just because the 'odds' dictate......

Ste05 · 10-11-2005 2:43pm

There is alot more to it than odds, but seeing as your example referred to "chasing draws, by calling" this is what I was referring to and should be dictated by odds, (as I said - implied odds as well as direct odds - and so that should incorporate reads, etc. it's not just 2/4 = call normally)

As to people approaching On-line poker as they would Live Poker, that is what I was getting to as well, when people play on-line they should be playing the same way as they do live, otherwise you might as well just bet on horses, it's just gambling otherwise.....

ntlbell · 10-11-2005 2:46pm

roryc wrote:

Also there is A LOT more to poker than simply 'odds'. You don't have your mind made up instantly just because the 'odds' dictate......

Yeah there's loads more to it, how far is your mouse away from your hand, how quick can you move the cursor to the call button, and if the software has good support for keyboard shortcuts for the action "call"

there's loads to poker!

padser · 10-11-2005 3:14pm

Ste05 wrote:

This is the big problem I think, your mind should be made up, if you're chasing and you're getting odds, either direct or implied, etc. you call, if you're not then you fold, simple......
:

I think, silly as it sounds the odds are different online in so far as you get much better implied odds. There is always an estimation to be made in calculating implied odds and I think that estimation is different online.

My reasoning would be the standard of play i find online is lower. If I hit the flush or the straight im likely to get paid more often, and of a higher amount online then in a live game. This makes chasing straights and flushes +ev where otherwise they wouldnt be.

Ste05 · 10-11-2005 3:49pm

padser wrote:

I think, silly as it sounds the odds are different online in so far as you get much better implied odds. There is always an estimation to be made in calculating implied odds and I think that estimation is different online.

My reasoning would be the standard of play i find online is lower. If I hit the flush or the straight im likely to get paid more often, and of a higher amount online then in a live game. This makes chasing straights and flushes +ev where otherwise they wouldnt be.

I agree with you there, however this just has to be added into your calculations if you think there's no implied odds then you fold if the pot isn't offering you the correct odds, but good point and one that should be noted, but the general strategy is the same, i.e. if Implied odds = 0, and you're getting the wrong odds to call then you should fold, be it on-line or Live,
Live it's easier to get a read on your opponent and be able to tell if they know what they're doing or not, whereas on-line all you can go on is what they've done before and what history you have with them.....

I think my whole point regarding Live and On-line is that if you're playing On-line optimally there is very little difference apart from concealing physical tells and picking up on the same. your general strategy should be pretty much the same, obviously they need to be tweaked slightly to make allowances for certain differences, remember, you can get "gut instincts" etc. on-line too, they may not be as strong as in Live play but the distinction isn't as huge as people make it out to be....

In actual fact I've found that when ever I play live it's alot easier to play because on top of my usual monitoring of betting patterns and watching the play that I do playing on-line, you get the added bonus of actually looking someone in the eye, listening to them talk to see what sort of person they are, so much more information available to put into the profile you have developed for each player,

DeVore · 10-11-2005 4:55pm

Hi there.
There are two reasons why people play differently online then offline.

1. People who play online are generally WORSE players then offline. Offline A9 is a donkey hand to me, online you ccould easily find it dominating A8 etc.

2. There is no shame in online play. You dont have to turn over your cards and face your peers and their scorn as you collect the pot after an inside straight draw hits. Believe it or not I rate this as the biggest single difference between online play and offline.

DeV.

Spiritus · 10-11-2005 4:58pm

The single greatest difference between live/online play is that in live play you would find it extremely hard to use THIS!

http://www.pokulator.com/

(with sound effects on please)

padser · 10-11-2005 5:02pm

DeVore wrote:

1. People who play online are generally WORSE players then offline. Offline A9 is a donkey hand to me, online you ccould easily find it dominating A8 etc.

2. There is no shame in online play. You dont have to turn over your cards and face your peers and their scorn as you collect the pot after an inside straight draw hits. Believe it or not I rate this as the biggest single difference between online play and offline.

DeV.

I assume that point 2 is the reason for point 1?

If you are getting the odds to go for a straight draw (pot or implied) offline or online surely you are going to make the same play?

DeVore · 10-11-2005 5:07pm

Where DO you find these wonderful toys....

DeV.

DeVore · 10-11-2005 5:14pm

padser wrote:

I assume that point 2 is the reason for point 1?

If you are getting the odds to go for a straight draw (pot or implied) offline or online surely you are going to make the same play?

If the pot odds are ok, then fine but they are 10:1 against an inside straight draw, requiring a pot of about 900 and a bet of about 100. Not something you typically see. The implied odds help of course but its still a rarity to find a place where you can realisitically call for it.

Take the A9 example. Offline USUALLY I will toss it. Online I might make a stab at it. The actually MEDIUM we play through is not what changes my mind. Its the quality of players. EG: If I got the same players as I play against in the Fitz, on a table online, then I would play much tighter.

That said, I do think that the lack of shame/scorn STILL affects players online though. I find I play much worse online then offline.

DeV.

Hectorjelly · 10-11-2005 5:15pm

People say really stupid things offline, I think it happens more offline because they know I cant copy and paste it.

Spiritus · 10-11-2005 5:17pm

DeVore wrote:

Where DO you find these wonderful toys....

DeV.

Random browsing...I've been saving this one up for ages, I was going to post it in one of Rory's bad beat threads but then they made an amalgamated thread *shrug*

roryc · 10-11-2005 5:52pm

Ah well.....

5starpool · 10-11-2005 6:57pm

It sure seems to me that people play a lot different online than offline or else it is just down to Tom's points above about no-shame or just worse players. The amount of ridiculous calls online is huge. I try to play the same online as off but it just makes me damn-near-cry whereas in the Fitz I have an average of cashing one tournament in 3 or even better (despite the occasional dodgy play there by some punters too).

Online makes me angry to put it simply. Outdrawn by rubbish makes me angry. Thats why I don't play online too much. I have no earnings expectations online, it's just amusement money really (or bemusement money more like).

ntlbell · 10-11-2005 7:13pm

DeVore wrote:

Hi there.
There are two reasons why people play differently online then offline.

1. People who play online are generally WORSE players then offline. Offline A9 is a donkey hand to me, online you ccould easily find it dominating A8 etc.

2. There is no shame in online play. You dont have to turn over your cards and face your peers and their scorn as you collect the pot after an inside straight draw hits. Believe it or not I rate this as the biggest single difference between online play and offline.

DeV.

No ones doubting there's a difference, the post is about people who talk about the reason for calling/raising/betting etc etc compared to what they would of done online i.e.

the guy crying because he called the chase when he didn't have odds to do so because "online" somehow the cards fall like cards from heaven and turn muck to gold.

The moan is about the reasoning behind it, not that there is a difference in style between online and offline!

"online i would of called yer all-in and risked my whole stack"

"why? because online i would of hit"

what sort of nonsense talk is this?

5starpool · 10-11-2005 7:29pm

generally by idiots you would like to get your money in against cause they don't know when tp play not play based on all factors such as cards, stacks, positions, players, reads etc.

A comment like that live would make me take extra notice when they are in the pot in they were serious about the comment.

Ah but if it was online you would.......

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