What is actually in "Transport 21"?

Victor

Other than a few badly drawn maps, a vague programme, a lump sum budget and a few other bits, what is the plan?

Where is the list of projects? Detailed budgets and programmes? List of responsibilities? Project specifications?

Half baked?

MarkoP11

Like every plan plan before it is a political vision not a plan we might get half a dozen elements done but the whole plan you must be joking

We waiting 14 months for this and got what 2 sheets of paper nothing concrete and a list of project which have been approved already.

The Platform11 site will have the costs broken down project by project in a few days, a combination of what we have been told already and some educated guesses we know the end total so piece by piece the costings can be worked out

A lot of crayonism here lines on maps, Luas to Lucan will be interesting

Plan is to get your vote in the next election thats the one thing we can be sure about

Maskhadov

Victor wrote:

What is actually in "Transport 21"?

Apart from gargantuan cost over runs, endless press releases postponing major projects and more spin than George W Bush can shake a stick at, absolutely nothing.

Transport 21 is nothing more than a fable AFAIC.

John R

Victor wrote:

What is actually in "Transport 21"?

Some votes.

Metrobest

Transport 21 is a lot more ambitious and forward-thinking than many of us imagined. But the votes won't materialise unless the government stops dithering and starts delivering.

I think the government WILL now deliver - already we have Dr O'Mahony as Dublin's answer to Professor Melis, and the Strategic Infrastructure Bill is promised for early next year. Having seen the benefits the LUAS has brought to the city, most businesses and the like will be prepared to take the pain to gain world-quality transport.

But there are hurdles to jump before we can have any of that. The media is going to keep a beady eye on develpments: any hitches in the plan will be pounced upon with glee - the government is well aware of this too. I can already picture the Sunday Independent's tacky commentators crying crocodile tears about the digging up of O'Connell Street and Stephen's Green West.

What's crucial is that everyone gets behind all of the plan. We need to support it, not pour scorn on it. Ireland can do this - this is the country of Ryanair and of Celtic Tiger optimism. If we cannot do this plan NOW, we'll never be able to.

If we don't have faith the plan is going to be delivered, Ireland's current third world infrastructure will become a self-fulfilling prophecy. No government will want to touch the whole transport issue - better do nothing than get burned by the media and the voting public who will view the constuction of a metro system in their city as a terrible inconvenience as no doubt it will delay cars in traffic, create visual and audial disruption and will make people angry at the government for these reasons.

But once the metro are other rail tunnels up and running, as per luas, anger will turn into affection. It's only then that Fianna Fail reap any electoral rewards from this plan. Bertie & Co would better be in this for the long haul, or else we're all in for a bumpy ride.

Bill McH

Metrobest wrote:

What's crucial is that everyone gets behind all of the plan.

Metrobest, that is a very nice idea. But, what plan? There isn't really a plan that the transport experts in the Department have got their hands on. It is obvious that only the politicians have got their paws on our transport plan.

We all need planned public transport. Somebody posted up www.urbanrail.net on these boards a while ago. I suggest you have a look at Sofia, in Bulgaria. Population 1.3 million people. I don't know the city at all, but their plan seems to involve general reach across a lot of parts of the city, and 1-change integration between their 3 metro lines. A simple plan. They have a clear picture of what they want to do. They've done a bit, but they're pretty poor at the moment, so they can't do all of it. But at least they have a plan of what they want to do if and when they have the cash.

We've got loads of cash, but our plan seems to involve throwing cash, willy-nilly, at LUAS lines and so forth in the hope that we will eventually end up with an integrated transport system. I think that actually costs us a lot more cash overall, and we probably don't end up with a terribly effective system.

The Lucan LUAS is a clear illustration that there is currently, quite obviously, no plan for Dublin.

East-West in the city, we now have the red line running between the Spire (approximately) to the bottom of Steeven's Lane (Heuston) and up Steeven's Lane to the top. Jam packed, as it's the fastest way between the city centre and Heuston.

The interconnector will run between St. Stephen's Green and the bottom of Steeven's Lane (Heuston). Huge capacity, but underutilised because there won't be enough trains going into it and coming out of it to keep it busy all the time. And at 1.3 billion euro it needs to be kept busy.

The only solution to the under-use of the interconnector is to get more trains into it.

To do this, we could spend our money adding one or more other destinations in the west of the city (apart from Hazelhatch). This would give a rapid link between the city centre and whatever destination that might be (Tallaght is an obvious one, and maybe Lucan). And we'd also need to either do up the northern line or add platforms at a city centre terminus (to allow trains to head back west). These things would allow much better use of the interconnector.

The solution we actually get is to spend good money adding a tram line running between College Green and the top of Steeven's Lane (and then out to Lucan, parallel to the new DART line).

So, going across the city centre between the St. Stephen's Green-Spire axis and the Steeven's Lane axis, we will end up with 3 rail lines travelling parallel within a mile of each other. This includes two tram lines and an underground tunnel which, going by the "Transport 21" plan, we are actually not planning to use to anything like its capacity.

I'd say there is no transport planner in the world who even could think up such a solution. And I'm certain there's none who would think up such a solution if they knew it was ever going to see the light of day, let alone be announced with such fanfare.

So..., get behind what plan?

Seth Brundle

Many of the ideas have been proposed numerous times since the 70s but they haven't materialised. There is also the fact (as reported by the Oirish Times) on how the new Dublin Transportation Office has been something the governmenrtts over the years have and havent wanted and it wouldnt surprise me that after the election, they close it down.
IMO the whole thing is a fantasy and most of it won't happen as planned.

Maskhadov

well the upshot of this T21 plan is that we will finally be on the www.urbanrail.net map when it comes to public infastructure

Seth Brundle

Everyone is making huge assumptions here that it will actually be completed!
FFS the man leading the campaign (althugh limited) is Martin Cullen - hasn't the best track record at leading projects now, has he?

weehamster

Well there are disturbing signs starting to emerge that the wonderful RPA Metro North & West might not be a real metro after all, but rather a 'light metro' (i.e. a tram, underground Luas) instead.

http://platform11.hyperboards3.com/index.cgi?action=display&cat=welcome&board=NIR&thread=1131739756

gjim

Oh jeezus, tell me it ain't true? They're going to spend billions tunnelling and building stations, depots and all the other infrastructure to run trams on the tracks? Oh god, the more I think of it, the more likely it sounds. I know they'll be able to run higher frequencies on completely segrated lines but look at the existing Luas lines which are almost at capacity already. Proper metro or DART style heavy rail would have 3 to 5 times the capacity of trams. I've been secretly wishing that they'd build it to DART specs allowing excellent possibilities for integration and future extension of the network by mix and matching between bits of existing and new structure. For example the Airport spur could be built in a few years time but as an extension from the Airport metro lines. This would provide superb integration for the system, effectively doubling the capacity of the proposed system and creating all sorts of new possibilities for metro journeys.

Maskhadov

the circus continues