Public transport

nobodythere

What do you think of the idea of having the public pay for public transport through taxes and then either make the buses free or dirt cheap? As oil prices go up we should be encouraging the use of public transport, and if everyone has to pay to fund public transport, more people might use it. It makes me sick to see car after car with just one person driving in it... as I pass them on the bus lane in the morning

I'd just like to hear if there are any real disadvantages to the idea

css

You assume everybody pays taxes...

nobodythere

Hehe, well being 17 I don't have to pay em yet obviously....

John_C

It would make the busses go a lot quicker if the driver didn't have to collect fares.

simu

The price of public transport isn't the problem. It's affordable but not very reliable in this country and many areas are not properly and efficiently serviced.

(I'm a regualar user and it can be hell)!

Goodshape

Good and cheap public transport should be seen as a fundemental part of a city - all the more so with the current climate fears and fuel prices. It keeps the city moving and gets people to work, where they earn money and pay taxes accordingly.

So yea, I agree with the OP; although I think it's more than just a 'green issue' -- as simu said the price isn't really all that bad at the moment, but the service and regularity of service are fairly abismal.

(most recent venture -- bus timetabled to arive at 19:00, next one at 19:30.. I'm there waiting from around 19:10 and a bus pulls up at around 19:15. wtf?! is this thing incredibly early or incredibly late?! either way it's a bit ****)

MrJoeSoap

Goodshape wrote:

(most recent venture -- bus timetabled to arive at 19:00, next one at 19:30.. I'm there waiting from around 19:10 and a bus pulls up at around 19:15. wtf?! is this thing incredibly early or incredibly late?! either way it's a bit ****)

Was thinking about this recently. A friend of mine said that in his area they go by bus timetables, which is a completely alien concept to me. I usually (on the rare occasion I get the bus, I take the train when and wherever possible) just walk to the bus stop and wait for the bus, they never stick to the timetable on the bus-stop.

To answer the OP, paying for public transport seems like a good idea (I would be interested in it myself), but I could see huge opposition to it from car drivers. "Why should they we have to pay for something we wont use?"

Thinking about it logically, it would take cars off the road, reduce traffic congestion and ultimately help the environment.

Goodshape

MrJoeSoap wrote:

I usually (..) just walk to the bus stop and wait for the bus, they never stick to the timetable on the bus-stop.

Yea, I've noticed (only been living in Dublin for the past couple of months). A bit disgraceful though to be honest - you could be waiting half an hour for them to show up, and no good just 'turning up' at the bus stop if you actually have to be somewhere (like getting to work for instance).

It almost seems unfair to compare Dublin city transport to the likes of Prague, but I don't really see why. It's not like they've got any less "scum" or under-privilaged people in that city (a common reason I hear against making transport cheap/free -- that it will be abused by these people) and yet transport in prague is as close to free as makes no difference and is always on time.

Imposter

MrJoeSoap wrote:

To answer the OP, paying for public transport seems like a good idea (I would be interested in it myself), but I could see huge opposition to it from car drivers. "Why should they we have to pay for something we wont use?"

Do we count trains and bus eireann in this too? I think it would be even more of an unfair tax on those that don't have public transport options (or a serious lack of options), which make a car a necessity.

Downtime

grasshopa wrote:

What do you think of the idea of having the public pay for public transport through taxes and then either make the buses free or dirt cheap? As oil prices go up we should be encouraging the use of public transport, and if everyone has to pay to fund public transport, more people might use it. It makes me sick to see car after car with just one person driving in it... as I pass them on the bus lane in the morning

I'd just like to hear if there are any real disadvantages to the idea

Stupid idea - I don't use public transport so why should I have to pay?

MrJoeSoap

Downtime wrote:

Stupid idea - I don't use public transport so why should I have to pay?

Because ultimately it may reduce congestion, get you to work faster and have a significant effect on pollution.

nobodythere

You should have to pay because it encourages the use of public transport which is beneficial to both the environment and the economy (the latter both because it reduces our oil consumption and dependency on oil as a nation and also employs more people in transport).

Fair point though with people being outside the area of bus services having to pay. This is a bit of a pickle... Though it's a failure of CIE to provide services rather than a failure of the concept of having everyone pay for public transport.

The bus service is unreliable mainly because it has a massive variable to deal with that trains don't: Traffic. If there was better infrastructure and more bus lanes in this country we'd have more people using public transport since they could trust it to get them to work on time.

Keeks

grasshopa wrote:

Though it's a failure of CIE to provide services rather than a failure of the concept of having everyone pay for public transport.

This not CIE/Bus Eireannns fault. They can't put bus stops outside everyones front door. Its not practical. They just can't service everyone.

A better idea would be to privatise the whole transport sector. This would add more competition, better services and probably a more reliable service as each company would be competiting for business and not realiing on the government (us tax paying fools) to sponser their inadequacies.

Goodshape

I'm not sure about privatising public transport, it's too important to an efficiently run city.

And it's probably just my lack of business knowledge shining through, but why does 'government run' and 'incompetent' seem to go hand-in-hand in almost every case in this country? Is it just a matter of everyman out for themselves and sitting on their arse because they know they can (ie. they're the state-option and the only-option)? Does common decency and a bit of national pride not come into it at all?

atilladehun

Im also not so sure about privatization. I think you get whole load of different problems with that. although there aren't too many of them dublin bus runs some unprofitable services, because a few people need them, i wouldn't see the likes of O'Leary doin that.

I like the idea of taxing for public transport. I know the bus is crap, but I love the train. I have my own car but leave it at home as much as possible. there was a time where i'd spend €40 a week on petrol and hate all the traffic i was in, get no exercise, put myself under extra pressure to not be late etcetc. now I spend €40 every 3 weeks on petrol, €20 on train fees (i could prob get it cheaper with some weekly ticket but haven't got to sort that out yet) plenty of exercise, and I arrive when the train gets me there no stress.

if the tax got people out of their cars then it would be worth it. it might be hard to arrange for the extra peak time passengers though.


this is off topic but related in the taxing sense:


Do lidl, aldi to name the regular culprits pay a recycling tax on the unsolicited mail I get week in week out? The Metro and the Herald AM too.I pay tax to have my green bin taken each month, this is a big cost for the council and I am happy to pay it for any paper I purchase and use. I feel I use paper efficiantly by reusing it, I only buy papers I need but I do not want all this junk I'm getting. I like lidl & aldi and will check the websites now and again for upcoming deals but I dont want the paper. Other crowds too, pizza delivery, sell your house people... I must have got 50 of those this year, how often do they expect me to move... I'm ranting now but you get my point,

Pay for it or get rid of it.

Capt'n Midnight

grasshopa wrote:

What do you think of the idea of having the public pay for public transport through taxes and then either make the buses free or dirt cheap?

It's not possible economically.
Dublin Bus has a turnover of €180 million a year.
Even if it reduced traffic in the city by 1/3 it would be hard for the NRA to justify this since it would be savings in reduced road costs would hardly cover the expense.

In June, 2004, the Comptroller and Auditor General (C&AG) published a ‘Report on the National
Roads Authority Primary Routes Improvement Programme’. This report focused on the 1999 National
Development Plan provision of €5.6bn for national road investment and tracked the reason as to why
the 2003 estimated cost of the roads programme was €16.4bn.

www.nra.ie/PublicationsResources/ DownloadableDocumentation/GeneralPublications/file,1461,en.pdf

Keeks

Capt'n Midnight wrote:

It's not possible economically.

Whats not possible?

vector

I hate public transport (the bus) because of the sheer amount of time it wastes in my day.

I finish work at 5.00, if I had a car I'd be home at 5.25, but I don't so I get the bus. Problem is the next bus after 5 isin't until 5.15, so I waste a solid 15 minutes every day waiting, when it arrives it travels at a resonable 50kmph as a car would in a built up area, but it keeps stopping to let people on and off, so that it doesn't pass my house until 5.55, so I waste 30 minutes. Sometimes the bus doesn't even arrive at 5.25 and obviously that is more time wasted.

If I was to get the bus from time to time, that is if it was like getting an airplane, then I wouldn't mind the time wasting, but the key point is I get the bus every day it is such waste of time. Time that I will never get back, time that could be spent doing something.

nobodythere

Bring a book

Del2005

Do we not pay a subvention to CIE out of our taxes already? If so why should we pay more?
The people who use it should pay as thats what they want car drivers to do;)

bonkey

vector wrote:

the key point is I get the bus every day it is such waste of time. Time that I will never get back, time that could be spent doing something.

Learn to multitask.

I long-ago mastered the art of doing something whilst simultaneously sitting on a bus. I've even extended the art to when I'm a passenger in a train, plane, boat, or car.

It might take some practice, but its a skill you will never regret learning.

jc

nobodythere

Del2005 wrote:

Do we not pay a subvention to CIE out of our taxes already? If so why should we pay more?
The people who use it should pay as thats what they want car drivers to do;)

Understandable but the point is that public transport should be encouraged for a number of reasons:

1. It takes traffic off the road. This is the one. 100 people on a full double-decker bus means there are 80 or so less cars on the road on your journey

2. The rising cost of oil and the inevitable oil peak, we're gonna have to learn to start cutting down sooner or later. If people can't trade their own car comfort for the future that they're gonna give their children then they're just fckn ****.

3. It will help us reach our targets that we signed up to in the Kyoto agreement.

bonkey

grasshopa wrote:

1. It takes traffic off the road. This is the one. 100 people on a full double-decker bus means there are 80 or so less cars on the road on your journey

This seems counter-intuitive.

THe first can be rephrased to say "we shoul dcharge people more, to make it clear to them that they already have a cheaper, preferable, potentially superior option available to them".

But...they already have this option and they're not taking it. How is making "cheaper" into "even cheaper" going to change that?

2. The rising cost of oil and the inevitable oil peak, we're gonna have to learn to start cutting down sooner or later. If people can't trade their own car comfort for the future that they're gonna give their children then they're just fckn ****.

Fine. And chargnig them more money is gonna go what, other than make them pay more for something they're not willing to give up. Doesn't solve the problem.

3. It will help us reach our targets that we signed up to in the Kyoto agreement.

Thats a reason why we should get people into buses. Its not a reason why we should charge them more to not get on buses until we can establish that this pricing-strategy will actually change their commuting habits.

Car fuel efficiency hasn't been an issue since the 80s. Car price/performance has literally gone in the wrong direction since then. People are already paying stupid money to purchase, insure, drive and park their cars. Thus, the "charge them more" has already been shown to be suspect because these people are still driving. Indeed, they're not just driving, they're driving in greater numbers, in more and more expensive vehicles.

Lump more money on the drivers, and my guess is that the vast majority will maybe go to the pub less, and perhaps consider a slightly smaller or more efficient car next time round.....but if they ain't getting on buses to save money already, why would they start?

jc

samb

bonkey wrote:

People are already paying stupid money to purchase, insure, drive and park their cars. Thus, the "charge them more" has already been shown to be suspect because these people are still driving. Indeed, they're not just driving, they're driving in greater numbers, in more and more expensive vehicles.

Lump more money on the drivers, and my guess is that the vast majority will maybe go to the pub less, and perhaps consider a slightly smaller or more efficient car next time round.....but if they ain't getting on buses to save money already, why would they start?

jc

People are not getting into buses for two main reasons namely 1. They prefer driving there car from a comfort perspective and 2. The buses are slow and unreliable.
If they are financially encouraged enough then there will be less cars and the buses will be quicker and more reliable. It is obvious that if nearly everyone used buses that money and time would be saved by all. The very rich could spoil themselves in there mini mobile homes and pay the price. Otherwise we will continue with the present senario which is economically wasteful. The road network in Dublin would be fine if less people clogged it up with cars.
I don't understand how you can say that the ''charge them more'' would not work. At a certain point many simply would not be able to afford it. If this was achieved then the centre of town would be more inviting for shoppers and generally be a more pleasent place for all. Which has obvious benefits for tourism, economy and health. If you are right and the ''charge them more'' didn't work then at least we could spend the money on buying carbon allowances among other things.

And before you say it, I know this is a very difficult thing to achieve and would require much time and money (initially). The problem now is that politians want to move in this direction but would like not to upset anybody. As always with Irish politians they do not show leadership, they react to public demand alone.

saibhne

I too am unsure of the merits of pricing people out of their cars, the unfortunate reality we face is that a car is necessary to a significant portion of our population - many people and families just cannot live without one.
A lot of the structure of our society is built on the premise that transport occurs via car, the existence of suburbia being a big example, it's not the car that is the root of the problem it is the structure.
I know that that is a massively general statement but I feel it is the correct way to think about the problem. A study conducted by the Dept of Environment after the introduction of the plastic bag tax made one big conclusion. It said that the Irish public would change their habits if their was a big enough incentive placed before them, it has to be worth their while and the alternative must be as easy as possible to accept.
To apply that to the traffic problem is that an alternative mode of transport to work/school/entertainment/life has to be produced and that it has to be blatantly obvious that it is better than driving your car. The first practical step to this is building a public transport system that surpasses the value of the car to the individual. The problem with achieving this, as was correctly stated above, is that there is no political leadership in this area.
It is up to us as the voting public to put people in government who are going to achieve this as a priority.

nobodythere

saibhne wrote:

I too am unsure of the merits of pricing people out of their cars, the unfortunate reality we face is that a car is necessary to a significant portion of our population - many people and families just cannot live without one.

I disagree. While I see that some people need cars (those who live far away from the cities and those who run businesses), I wouldn't say that the majority of people NEED cars. I cycle past the traffic daily (something SOOOOO satisfying ) and all I see is car after car of 1 person, 1 person, 1 person. All bitching about traffic when they're really part of the problem.

I think we've grown up in a generation where we just get richer and richer, politicians pretend that economic growth is infinite and sustainable but it eventually has to kick us in the ass. Very few people in our society have ever had to give up any of their comforts, nobody here has to think to survive and the majority just turn off their brains and sink into their leather couches. The only time they care is when they want to numb their conscience.

saibhne wrote:

A lot of the structure of our society is built on the premise that transport occurs via car, the existence of suburbia being a big example, it's not the car that is the root of the problem it is the structure.
I know that that is a massively general statement but I feel it is the correct way to think about the problem. A study conducted by the Dept of Environment after the introduction of the plastic bag tax made one big conclusion. It said that the Irish public would change their habits if their was a big enough incentive placed before them, it has to be worth their while and the alternative must be as easy as possible to accept.

That's a very valid point, in my experience most peoples hearts are in their pockets. If the price of oil was adjusted to what it should be people would get one big f*cking wake up call.