Natural Gas Central Heating - How much to install?

di11on

We currently have Gold Shield electric storage heating in our home and after 2 years trying to perfect the Zen art of getting it to heat the house the right amount, we're giving up. It's crap. It's expensive. It's going!

So... Natural gas sounds to me to be the best alternative. Would anyone be able to give me a ballpark figure for getting a natural gas central heating system installed in a 3 bed semi-detatched bungalow in Co. Wicklow?

Would be much appreciated.

Many thanks,

Di11on

JamesM

Why not oil ?
Do you have natural gas outside your door ?
You are talking about a completely new heating system !
Jim.

di11on

Don't think we have gas outside our door...

Why not oil indeed. But why not gas? What are the arguments for/against both? Oil would be a compeltely new heating system too.

JamesM

di11on wrote:

Don't think we have gas outside our door...

How close is the gas supply ? They won't bring a supply just to your house. LPG eg. Calor gas in a tank costs a lot more than Natural gas.
Gas prices did not increase for over 10 years to encourage new customers, but have now increased hugely. You pay for gas right through the Summer time even if you are not using any. Gas is handy - no running out and having to be at home waiting for a delivery.
Oil prices increase and decrease depending on the world market etc. The price of 1000 litres incresesd to Euro 680 a month ago, but was down to 620 a week later and has decreased since.
Once you fill your tank and pay for it, you know exactly where you stand - no unexpected bills.
Jim.

lomb

per kwh of useable energy(heat) gas is cheaper than oil , which is cheaper than electricity which is cheaper than LPG in tanks.
gas is approximately 20% cheaper than oil per kwh. electricity is double the cost of oil per kwh but converts 100% to heat whereas oil and gas only convert 80%-90 % to heat with the rest going up in smoke. LPG is very dear and is not really something that you should consider. if there is no gas main on the road outside forget it. if there is its 250 euro to bring the connection in 15 meters to your house and about 100 euros per meter after.
the system cost about 3500 to install in addition to the 250, with 1/2 of the 3500 taken up by labour and the balance by the cost of the boiler etc.
also u will need to factor in 500 ish euros for thermostats on your radiators which u really will need and and another 200 for a wireless digital room thermostat/programmer in the one room that is without thermostatic radiator valves, which then shuts the heating down when that room reaches temperature. overall to do it properly u are probably looking at 4500 euros for proper climate control in every room. if your house needs radiators, and plumbing knowing what labour is like these days, add another 2 or 3 grand for it assuming you have timber floorboards that can be lifted.

di11on

Thanks for that Lomb.

I know neighbours have gas, so the gas main can't be too far.

Knowing that gas is the cheapest per kW(heat) solution, and knowing that we're going to be in our current location for another 2 years - should be easy to work out the cheapest overall option.

Thanks again.

Di11on

Builderwoman!

Sorry for butting in di11on, Lomb you seem to be pretty in tune with gas issues. We are thinking of installing LPG (we demolished inlaws house and exisiting LPG tank is already there) and now I am beginning to wonder. We were hoping to install a high quality Veissman condenser boiler to heat some underfloor heating and some rads (for hot water it will supplement solar which will heat the water for a good deal of the time). We also were installing two gas (coal effect fires) which we are not going to use all that often and going to install a gas hob. We are maxing out on insulation and we are building a rather large house so I am hoping that we won't be using too much gas?! Are we doing the right thing? Your advice/observations would be very much welcomed. Thanks.

JamesM

di11on wrote:

Knowing that gas is the cheapest per kW(heat) solution,

Does anybody actually ask the people who use gas about their costs ? Bord Gas do a great marketing job and know how to work figures. Actually the figures on their website are well out of date.
Before you use any gas at all, you have to pay approx 250 per yr. Even if you shut your heating down from May to Sept, you are still being charged a hefty standing charge.
This is not included in the KW (heat) figures.

I live in an average 3 bed semi d. I have a modern kero oil boiler. The heating runs 8 hours a day. In Summer it just heats the water. In winter it heats the water and 3 rads in the milder weather and up to 5 rads if it is colder. In freezing weather another 3 might be on.
I buy 1000 Lt oil at a time because the rate is cheaper than 2 lots of 500 Lt.
I use approx one and a half fills a year.

Builderwoman, I would certainly forget the LPG tank, with a house your size oil will certainly be cheaper.

Jim.

lomb

Builderwoman! wrote:

Sorry for butting in di11on, Lomb you seem to be pretty in tune with gas issues. We are thinking of installing LPG (we demolished inlaws house and exisiting LPG tank is already there) and now I am beginning to wonder. We were hoping to install a high quality Veissman condenser boiler to heat some underfloor heating and some rads (for hot water it will supplement solar which will heat the water for a good deal of the time). We also were installing two gas (coal effect fires) which we are not going to use all that often and going to install a gas hob. We are maxing out on insulation and we are building a rather large house so I am hoping that we won't be using too much gas?! Are we doing the right thing? Your advice/observations would be very much welcomed. Thanks.

this sums it up http://www.bordgais.ie/energysupply/gas_at_home/htm/3_gas_at_home/comparison_index.htm
and here
http://www.irish-energy.ie/content/content.asp?section_id=506
as the other poster said forget LPG

di11on, if u are only going to be there 2 years why spend 6 or 7 grand to save 1000 over those 2 years in energy?

Victor

Per kWh costs need to be taken in balance with monthly fixed charges and cost of system over its lifetime.

lomb wrote:

the system cost about 3500 to install in addition to the 250, with 1/2 of the 3500 taken up by labour and the balance by the cost of the boiler etc.

That seems a bit light - you are looking at a few hundred per rad, just for the plumbing then add plaster and painting repairs. will floors need to be ripped up?

What size is the house?
How many rooms / rads?
Terraced / semi-d / bungalow?

di11on

lomb wrote:

di11on, if u are only going to be there 2 years why spend 6 or 7 grand to save 1000 over those 2 years in energy?

Because we're freezing

Victor wrote:

What size is the house?

It's 8m x 11m

Victor wrote:

How many rooms / rads?

3 bedrooms + Lounge + Kitchen + Conservatory + Hall = 7 rads (max)

Victor wrote:

Terraced / semi-d / bungalow?

Semi-d bungalow

Thanks people

squire1

Di11on, get a friendly estate agent to see if your investment would be returned when you sell the property in two years before you go through the whole experience of having your house ripped apart and shelling out the best part of 5K for the pleasure.

D2_eng

I'm in a very old 2-storey house, rattling sash windows, cracks around doors, open fireplaces etc (i.e. winter wind goes straight through) and installed natural gas CH a couple of years ago. It is fantastic, and I think very cheap considering the house. We also have a gas cooker which if you're interested in cooking at all justifies choosing gas on its own...
The bills for heating plus cooking last year were 118, 111, 143, 71, 57, 60, 111 for Jan, Feb .... Dec.
The cost of installing it ties in with the estimates from the previous poster, and it was very quick and easy to install. Definitely make a point of asking for thermostatic valves on all radiators, you need them and for some reason some installers don't put them in as standard.

lomb

Victor wrote:

.That seems a bit light - you are looking at a few hundred per rad, just for the plumbing then add plaster and painting repairs. will floors need to be ripped up?

What size is the house?
How many rooms / rads?
Terraced / semi-d / bungalow?

i did also say-
also u will need to factor in 500 ish euros for thermostats on your radiators which u really will need and and another 200 for a wireless digital room thermostat/programmer in the one room that is without thermostatic radiator valves, which then shuts the heating down when that room reaches temperature. overall to do it properly u are probably looking at 4500 euros for proper climate control in every room. if your house needs radiators, and plumbing knowing what labour is like these days, add another 2 or 3 grand for it assuming you have timber floorboards that can be lifted.

lomb

D2_eng wrote:

Definitely make a point of asking for thermostatic valves on all radiators, you need them and for some reason some installers don't put them in as standard.

couldnt have said it better, its actually illegal in the uk to fit a new system without trvs, they are essential as is a digital thermostat/programmer in the one room without trvs, that shut the heating down.

rooferPete

Hi di11on,

An installation from the beginning to finish should be possible in the price ranges posted, a detailed spec from the installer should help you avoid having to look for someone to re-fit the floor boards etc.

There can be areas where the contractor will ask that you look after such as clearing areas of rooms for them to work in they can be taken as expected, but replacing carpets especially good ones may be left to you to find a carpet fitter.

Also timber floors laminate or solid can increase the cost if the contractor has to remove and replace them so many will not accept responsibility for them due to the wide range of systems available.


Hi Builderwoman,

LPG is a by product of oil and the prices adjust with the oil market, as for the tank, your spending is taken out of your control because the tanker will top up your tank when in the area, it's in the small print on the contract.

I know that unless you intend removing the system you need gas in the tank but it can take a very careful household budget to absorb an unexpected bill, at least with other systems you have control over your use of the fuel to suit available cash on hand.

Veissman make some very high quality products, it might be a good idea to reconsider and look at their other systems now because a second hand boiler regardless of the make is very poor value, add LPG to the boiler and you have a very limited market, so bad that you may end up paying to have it removed.

.

LeperKing

RooferPete,

Is there anything wrong with installing a boiler in the attic, to save space and to convert a one circuit rads/immersion into a two circuit system? ( IE Having the boiler beside the piping of the immersion, facilates a valve to switch off the rads in the summertime)

The only possible problems I can see are potential fire hazard (true?) and a flue going through the roof. (Potential leaks?)

Thanks,
LK

lomb

LeperKing wrote:

RooferPete,

Is there anything wrong with installing a boiler in the attic, to save space and to convert a one circuit rads/immersion into a two circuit system? ( IE Having the boiler beside the piping of the immersion, facilates a valve to switch off the rads in the summertime)

The only possible problems I can see are potential fire hazard (true?) and a flue going through the roof. (Potential leaks?)

Thanks,
LK

i dont think theres anything wrong, but u have to follow some building regs if its the uk (good advice anyway)
i think u can get a special roof slate/tile with a flue atached so that solves that problem, as re the fire hazard, well yes it is a risk, u need a roof ladder i believe thats fixed, some kind of fire insulation etc.

as re the two circuits theres no need, use trvs, and a bypass valve, and then when they all shut in the summer the water will flow into the hotpress exclusively and any excess pressure will be taken care of by the bypass valve. alternatively pull the hot water cylinder out and fit a combi boiler in its place, then u dont need to put it in the attic. i believe they can supply 16 liters of piping hot water a minute, that should be enough.only downside is if and when the boiler breaks u may have no hot water/heating for a week+ as parts for boilers are hard to get. this means really u NEED a spare combi boiler to butcher for parts when the main one goes...

rooferPete

Hi LeperKing,

There are others who call by better qualified than I am on heating, however I know of gas boilers installed in the attic with balanced flues going through the gable wall.

When suggested my Number 1 plumber came up with a few good reasons as to why it was not a great idea, the main one being Fire.

Even though the boiler is very efficient there is still hot gas coming out of the balanced flue, his observation was if the boiler was not serviced or even normal operating conditions there was a danger that the heat could cause a fire under the soffit and a higher chance when the facia and soffit are pvc.

Another concern he had on this particular project was the chance that wind would cause problems between the two houses because they were close together.

Those two reasons were enough for me to take his advice and go with his expert knowledge.

.

Builderwoman!

Hi Builderwoman,

LPG is a by product of oil and the prices adjust with the oil market, as for the tank, your spending is taken out of your control because the tanker will top up your tank when in the area, it's in the small print on the contract.

I know that unless you intend removing the system you need gas in the tank but it can take a very careful household budget to absorb an unexpected bill, at least with other systems you have control over your use of the fuel to suit available cash on hand.

Veissman make some very high quality products, it might be a good idea to reconsider and look at their other systems now because a second hand boiler regardless of the make is very poor value, add LPG to the boiler and you have a very limited market, so bad that you may end up paying to have it removed.

.[/QUOTE]

Hi Pete,

Nice to see you back on the boards. We are beginning to think about the lpg and do some research. We are not re-installing the old boiler from the house we demolished onsite (that's been scrapped) we intend buying anew veissman condensing boiler. We want to use gas for cooking and had hoped to use it for gas open fires so we have to take everything into consideration. Keep the advice coming!

Thanks a million!

LeperKing

lomb wrote:

i dont think theres anything wrong, but u have to follow some building regs if its the uk (good advice anyway)
i think u can get a special roof slate/tile with a flue atached so that solves that problem, as re the fire hazard, well yes it is a risk, u need a roof ladder i believe thats fixed, some kind of fire insulation etc.

as re the two circuits theres no need, use trvs, and a bypass valve, and then when they all shut in the summer the water will flow into the hotpress exclusively and any excess pressure will be taken care of by the bypass valve. alternatively pull the hot water cylinder out and fit a combi boiler in its place, then u dont need to put it in the attic. i believe they can supply 16 liters of piping hot water a minute, that should be enough.only downside is if and when the boiler breaks u may have no hot water/heating for a week+ as parts for boilers are hard to get. this means really u NEED a spare combi boiler to butcher for parts when the main one goes...

Hi lomb,

What exactly is a bypass valve do and do all domestic systems have one?

LK

lomb

hello, bypass is installed at the boiler say a foot or two away from it, and it connects the supply pipe to the return pipe. when the pressure passes a set point and the water is going through the supply line for some reason(all the trvs on the rads have shut down as the room has heated to the set point of the trvs and the water is being choked because of this) the bypass valve opens and water flows straight thru to the return pipe.
an alternative to a bypass valve is not haveing a trv in the room fitted with the thermostat/programmer. this ensures the water has somewhere to go and also means that the overall tempreature in the room will shut down the heating boiler when it overheats (the thermostat/programmer) remember the trvs control temperature in the other rooms, but wont turn off the boiler, u need a thermostat/programmer in one room which shuts down the boiler and the whole heating system as well as offering a programer clock so it turns on at say 6.30 am.
ideally u should also fit a thermostat to the hot press cylinder that closes the hot press radiator inside the cylinder when it reaches temperature. this is in the perfect world though...
many problems are created by locations where the main thermostat is fitted, it needs to be the coldest room in the house ideally away from heat sources (ie north facing )so the trvs in the other rooms shut first and then the thermostat in the cold room finally turns off the boiler, otherwise the boiler would switch off before the other trvs ever do.
personally if i was doing it, i would fit the bypass valve, im not competent enough to say if the pressure of the whole system is enough to go through the one radiator in the non trv room. i suppose theres nothing to lose by fitting it.

LeperKing

So, just to clarify...

If there were 5 rads, and the first four were turned off would the fifth rad get warm? I'm asking do rads get installed in parallel or serial into the system.

LK

lomb

yes the 5th will get warm, thats the whole point of fitting thermostats to rads, they are indeed installed in parallel

LeperKing

Brilliant, now it all makes sense!

Cheers,
LK.

Quii

any idea of a modern cost to do this?

Dtp79

Quii wrote: »

any idea of a modern cost to do this?

I'd say you'll have more luck in plumbing and heating forum