How fast...is fast???

Gatster

Strange question perhaps, but in my ponderings over what to get next I find myself asking what feels fast.

I had a test drive in an 04 Impreza WRX STi and there is no doubting it was quick, but it didn't feel it and just went faster and faster, a bit like playing Gran Turismo. Between the '97-'99 328i Sport or M3 I aim to get in the next few months I find myself asking is the (possible) feeling worth the extra insurance/costs etc. etc. Any ideas?

Kersh

Anything with a turbo, the more of them the merrier..... oh, and loads of ccs too........

Fajitas!

The feeling of 'fast' depends on the car I guess. A small car and anything 70+ can feel fast, a big car, 100+ before it feel's fast.

Lol, compare a drive in a Pug 206 to a Saab 93.

IDMUD

The fuel here in Ireland cripples performance in a big way. It's a shame really because it doesn't make any sense to tax fuel based on octane rating.

peasant

IMO all (well ALMOST all) modern cars are so well engineered that you are very far removed from the driving "experience". In order to feel a certain "thrill" (other than sheer acceleration that comes with turbo and cc's)you have to go waaay beyond the limits of what is legal and / or considered safe.
Basically you end up forking out loads for this powerhouse of a machine that you can only use as intended very very rarely and then mostly illegaly. Most of the time, you will be forced to trundle along and will be very annoyed about having spent loads on this fabbbulus motor and not being able to use it.

My tip would be ...(seriously !!) ... get a so called "classic" Mini ..i.e. the old shape. It holds the road like a go-kart, with the 1.3 engine it is actually fierce quick off the mark (consider its light weight) and it is coool:D
Decent ones still do cost a fair bit of money ...but you will have fun (and feel like going "fast") wherever you go.

unkel

Fajitas! wrote:

The feeling of 'fast' depends on the car I guess

Agree. Doing over 200km/h in my previous or current V8 motorway munchers did not feel that fast

peasant wrote:

My tip would be ...(seriously !!) ... get a so called "classic" Mini ..i.e. the old shape

And as 1 of 5 big blokes in a classic Mini doing about 120km/h on a single carriageway, I was nearly sh!tting myself

5500

There seems to be alot of guys in the uk putting honda engines in there minis,ill dig out the videos but the power to weight ratio is supposed to make them scarily quick!

bloke

unkel wrote:

And as 1 of 5 big blokes in a classic Mini doing about 120km/h on a single carriageway, I was nearly sh!tting myself

Hehe... sounds like fun.

Agreed it's all about power-to-weight. You also get a better sense of speed the more exposed you are to danger!

My ~35bhp motorbike feels much faster than my 190bhp car. Well, it is faster, up to 80km/h or so... But at 120km/h on the bike with my head being hammered by the wind it feels a lot faster than the car at 230 km/h! (on a German a-bahn before people get upset)

The best feeling of speed and exhilaration I've ever had was on a borrowed modified Honda fireblade (~150bhp in a thing not much heavier than me). Makes you feel very alive and (in my case) more than a little scared!!!

So IMO bikes are the way to go for exhilaration. But accidents are quite a bit riskier... not to mention the rain thing ;-)

Sparky

i suppose fast feels when the turbos kick in, like your being pulled.
I drove a impala in las vegas and that was fast, max speed i tried on it was 150 and i got a bit worried then, it still felt like it had another bit in it.
Good thing it was a long straight open road with no cops and few cars

528i

It's all relative, I know someone who quite sedately drives 120 to work most mornings with minimal fuss and effort, and needs to hit 160 (mainly at night when theres not many around and those who are, can't catch the reg no.) to get a decent rush. An integra type R is a good buzz at half the speed.

unkel

528i wrote:

An integra type R is a good buzz at half the speed.

Now, I hope your intention wasn't to take the p!ss there, now was it, 528i?

528i

Buzz as in cbr250 screaming close ratio gearchanging madness while going nowhere'ness'ish. In other words 100mph feels downright fugking scary in an Integra [or equivalently harsh suspensioned / rigid close to the ground propulsive'ness]

quarryman

Sparky_S wrote:

i suppose fast feels when the turbos kick in, like your being pulled.
I drove a impala in las vegas and that was fast, max speed i tried on it was 150 and i got a bit worried then, it still felt like it had another bit in it.
Good thing it was a long straight open road with no cops and few cars

what type of an impala? Are they the type used in cop cars?

hardwoodhero

A teg type r is a geat drive. A Honda NSX has supercar performance ( 3.0 VTEC) at reasonable cost.

ssh

While the NSX rocks, I don't consider it a supercar - 5.5 seconds to 60?

Anyway, consider the following:

I drive an S2000 (AP1), my friend drives an MR2 turbo (the old 2.0l one). They hit 60, 80 and 100 in pretty much the same times - not enough to really make a huge difference. His car feels faster - you notice yourself getting pushed up against the seat far more than in mine.

So what's the difference? As best I can tell (and feel free to correct me), my car delivers less peak power but over a wider rev range while the real "going fast" feeling that his provides is the massive bump in power that the turbo charger gives a moment after every gear change.

Mr Magnolia

Love a Supra 3ltr twin-turbo.

Got a rip in a Lancia Delta that was quick, 2ltr turbo.

Had a spin in a Merc S600 D, also felt really fast.

As somebody said before, "the more Turbo's the better"!

ferdi

its all about the acceleration.
the fastest you can legally go is 120 so....

PlayaFlow

its simple really . high torque = feels fast.

as the power is instant . it feels like a plane accelerating on the runway.

So you dont have to wait for high revs to build up or for the turbo to start spinning.

so if anything -turbos actually make the car feel slower ( make sense? )

hence the OP driving a WRX and it didnt feels fast.


basically my point , if you are expecting to 'feel fast' and anticipating it , it will dissapoint (eg turbos and v-tecs) - if you have high torque it will feel fast because power delivery is much more instant. eg BMW530d MERC270CDI - ive driven both these cars and they both "feel" faster rthan an integra type R

edit: and by high torque i mean 400nm plus

ssh

I think the feeling of the turbo kicking in really is the bit which makes the thing feel fast. Any turbo or supercharged car I've driven feels faster than mine, even though they aren't. That includes a 530d, which is over a second slower to 60 - the sense of "whoa this is fast" is far more perceptible in that barge than my little runabout.

unkel

PlayaFlow wrote:

eg BMW530d MERC270CDI - ive driven both these cars and they both "feel" faster rthan an integra type R

The automatic diesel BMW 530d is actually faster than an ITR. 0-100 km/h about the same, 0-100+ BMW faster, overtaking acceleration higher, topspeed higher

Gatster

get a so called "classic" Mini

Hmmm. I had one when I was 19 with a 1380cc Howley racing engine and a Jack Knight straight-cut gearbox, and spent most of my brief ownership wondering if I would stop without hitting whatever I was going towards. I would imagine it is now firmly trashed, or has become some sort of smaller version of Stephen King's 'Christine'.

Do I want the same rush again? No, frankly - I can't afford to have a 'normal' car and say a Westfield or whatever (which I would love), and think that an M3 might be a compromise of sorts. Is the extra 'fastness' of the M3 worth it over the 328i Sport though, I'm not sure..?

fletch

Sparks400 wrote:

Had a spin in a Merc S600 D, also felt really fast.

What's a Merc S600 D??? Never heard of a 6ltr diesel S-class

Mr Magnolia

fletch wrote:

What's a Merc S600 D??? Never heard of a 6ltr diesel S-class

Yer right, must have been the 6ltr petrol one.

http://www2.mercedes-benz.co.uk/content/unitedkingdom/mpc/mpc_unitedkingdom_website/en/home_mpc/passenger_cars/home/products/new_cars/s-class_saloon/technical_data/petrol_models.0007.html

MercMad

It all about the power delivery !

Ever wonder why say an old Mk2 RS2000 feeld faster than a new Mondeo2.0 despite the fact the new car has an extra 30 odd BHP. Well weight is one thing but its the fact that engine designers aim for a flat torque curve and for as much BHP as they can at lower revs.

Older cars were more cammy. They didn't do much under about 4000RPM and then they moved, and performance cars with High Lift Cams started to move at about 4500 and took off at 5500 !

Nowdays Turbocharged cars tend to use smaller turbos that spool up faster therefore the effect is like a larger engined car, there is less of a peak in performance, the torque is all there from low RPM. Compare a current Saab 9-5 with 250BHP to say a 1980 900 Turbo. The current car feels like a 3.0 litre car all the time, power on delivery, whilst the early car feels like it is never going to move and that you are going to be killed whilst overtaking, then the turbo blows in and you feel you will hit the horizon in about 5 seconds !

Once you modify a turbocharged car, petrol or diesel, you change the torque curve, it comes in earlier and builds to a higher level.

For accelration you need torque, for high speed you need BHP, for e.g a rally car usually is restricted in its BHP but the quest is always for more torque at lower RPMs to pull them out of a corner whilst typical racing engines are always tuned for maximum BHP and they wont even move off the line without a serious dose of revs !

ambro25

Gatster wrote:

I can't afford to have a 'normal' car and say a Westfield or whatever (which I would love), and think that an M3 might be a compromise of sorts.

Just as a matter of interest ( ) ... define 'normal' car parameters? If -say- 'normality' is dictated by family reasons, and you're looking at a compromise anyway, then I'd either consider a Scoob (4 or 5 door, say a Legacy twin-turbs), or -indeed- a 'normal' car and a 'toy' (the respective running costs of which should more-or-less amount to running an M3 anyway).

At any rate, and not wanting to sound on high horses about the speeding issue or the like (as I'm way up there with the others in speeding terms myself ), where the f*** do you intend to grab your speed fixes anyway? :rolleyes:

Gatster

At any rate, and not wanting to sound on high horses about the speeding issue or the like

No, fair play, I can see how this may come across. Wherever it's suitable (ie. not endangering other road users) would be the only answer I can give. The other problem with the Westfield/normal car issue is I don't have anywhere to put an extra car

If I did I'd probably be on the way to buy this

http://www.pistonheads.com/sales/54436.htm

Apart from the fact I wouldn't know where to get insurance in Ireland. And then buy a Polo or something.

lazylad

I have to say turbo is definately a "kick" of speed

My bro is just after getting audi A4 1.9 Tdi. Just went for spin in it.
Hit up to 85 on N11.

No gards around this evening its too cold

BrianD3

There are so many answers and viewpoints to the question "what feels fast". Anything can feel fast on the right road and in the right hands. eg Lunatic Frenchman drives a 2CV down a twisty country road and doesn't bother slowing down for corners, that's going to feel fast.

In general, the lower, older, noisier and smaller a car, the faster it's going to feel. As already mentioned the Mini, small Fiats etc.

I was once a passnger in a Skoda Rapid (rear engined thing) and it felt fast and scary. Look at a car like teh Renault 5 Turbo 2, weighs about the same as a bicycle, engine puts out 160 bhp, has an abrupt turbo delivery a very short wheel base and is mid engined. That's not going to feel anything other than fast.

The there's just raw power, grunt, torque. Cars like the AC Cobra 427, Plymouth Hemi 'Cuda, Aston Vantage 600 and many others all had ridiculous amounts of power. Quentin Wilson of Top Gear once described the Cobras acceleration as "bowel shattering"

Sparky

quarryman wrote:

what type of an impala? Are they the type used in cop cars?

Yeah the exact car the NYPD use

SouperComputer

bring a skyline with 900BHP in from japan, should feel nippy enough. Not a very nimble car though!

also, a caterham (or any lotus 7 copy) or an Ariel Atom

Gatster

See my earlier link -

http://www.pistonheads.com/sales/54436.htm

It all depends on if I continue with my large-ish (50 mile a day) commute. If not, say hello to anything from an M3 (3.0 or 3.2) upwards may be on the cards, or the Robin in the link with something else (possibly a scooter or cheap car)...I would love the indulgance as much as anything.

If I persist with the daily trudge, it's probably a BMW 328i sport or an E46 coupe, something quick...

SouperComputer

aye, the robin hoods offer excellent value for money. I think the only way get insured is thruogh a Kit car club though, possibly with limited milage.

Im working off dated info though.

CorporalCarrot

Gatster

I currently drive an E46 M3 having previously owned a E46 318ci. I know the 328 is 40 more horses than the 318, but frankly there is no comparison. Get a good test drive (as i did) in the M3 and you will want it, if you have any kind of petrol in your soul.

I also test drove the wrx sti etc before the M3 but they also left me cold, the styling I couldn't get over and the lumpy power delivery is not as useable in everyday (its only over 3000 rpm the scoobs really start to deliver).

the M3 on the other hand....well all I can say is that even now 4 months after buying it, it still gives me thrills. The sound of the straight 6 engine is just immense, the way it screams all the way to 8000 rpm. Floor it at around 4000-5000 rpm and its like sex. Even if its just on nice deserted back roads or the odd "incoming missile" on a motorway slip road. The handling and grip is also fantastic. But it ticks all the other boxes also. It can be a comfortable cruiser, takes the shopping and two sets of golf clubs. Plus its the last properly resolved BMW design.

Oh and don't mind all those who say, "ooh you can't really use it" etc etc. In my experience its generally people who simply can't afford them who come out with ****e like that. By that rationale we should all be driving around in 1 litre micras and glorious cars like ferraris would not exist.

So if you can afford it (and I mean truly afford it with money to spare for eventualities and higher running costs), get yourself a PROPER test drive and go for it.

C

TempestSabre

I think it depends on what you driving is. I used to do a 50 commute every day across the mountains in winter. Now I'm doing a 7 mile commute though the city center. Completely different type of driving, and requires a different car. Incidentally both journeys take me roughly the same time. :eek:

I think a lot of people feel finding the limits of a small car is more accessible, than finding the limits of a 150mph car. But there are intrinsic pleasures from owning and driving a really nice car, even if you are just trundling around. I think the comments about not having somewhere to use them, comes from the idea of rhe sports GT's, which are really designed for going from UK down to the south of France/europe. Or just trans europe. But really those days are gone. Now it about discovering quiet and challenging roads, and enjoying them. That doesn't always mean driving flat out though. In Ireland we have really poor road surfaces, so on a car with low ground clearance, hitting a pot hole or a stone, and ripping off your sump, really isn't all that fun.

kevmac

Maybe it's the time of night that I am reading this but this thread has to be one of the most balanced threads on this board for ages.

Got myself a Subaru Legacy Spec B and have been trying to get my head around the NA engine delivery after many years driving a turbo car.

Keeping the engine peaky works but it is so hard to change my driving pattern.

ambro25

What about a 'toy' and a bike? (I think you've suggested that in-thread). I used to do a 6- to 7-mile commute in Dublin center in a reasonably nice & fast car (1,8i MX-5), but in the end I went for a scooter.

I've barely put 10 miles on the car for the last 2 months or so ('98 and yet to break 45kmiles ), but those miles have been fun to say the least: I've re-discovered the joy of owning & sometimes playing with a RWD nimble sportscar, from ownership and use that had become 'stale' through mostly ever using in grid-locked Dublin...

I find the balance to be nigh-on perfect, tbh. Not likely to take the scooter for anything else than the commute, so in the car and ready to rock'n'roll whenever I'm out-and-about out of commute hours

So, that may overcome your parking limitations, side along nicely with your budget(s), not to mention you can forget about tailbacks in the center

Oh and BTW: I did comment about possible use, and in respect fo further comments in-thread (i) could afford a much nicer set of wheels if I so desired (currently MX-5, 2.0 Sport Impreza and the scooter, thinking of binning the current Impreza for a WRX - 'tis family motor ), (ii) merely asked as the OP hinted at regularly hitting ungodly speeds and -whilst I'm not going to berate anyone for a quick 140 mph on the M50 in the dead of the night- one has to be responsible at most other times...:)

CorporalCarrot

Ambro

I hope you didnt take my post badly.

I was not for a second advocating being irresponsible in the car......I think even in this day and age its still possible to enjoy a nice car without going mental. In fact, even though I have more overtaking power than most, I still find myself getting overtaken by small engined cars on roads where I would deem it too much of a risk to execute a manoever.

I think tempest said it best that there are intrinsic pleasures to owning and driving a really nice car even if you are just trundling around.

C

ambro25

Nah - just get testy real quick these rainy cold days, comes with age...you'll see

On balance, I get more pleasure than grief for owning something nicer than a Punto/Focus/Vectra, and I'd expect any one else to as well.

But it can be testing at times, and the utter worst is totally unprovoked aggro' (verbal, gestures, bumper-riding and the like) from someone clearly jealous. Happens all the time to anyone in anything remotely fancy, I'm certain, as I have now unilaterally decided that begrudgery is endemic in Dublin

So, in that respect - helps to have the extra ooomph...sorry...'fastness' (;) @ OP), to leave such ignoramus coughing on dust and fumes...