Eircom are ripping you off - even if you don't use them!

probe

Eircom’s sky high line and broadband subscription fees are keeping broadband pricing high across the entire industry (including wireless).

For anyone listening to eircom’s McRedmond and the misleading rubbish he has been trotting out over the airwaves against loop unbundling recently:

1) Loop unbundling is vital to the growth of broadband use because without it, the incumbent (eircom) controls virtually everything –

a) Eircom puts a floor price limit below which “competitors” can’t sell their DSL internet access service;

b) Eircom puts a ceiling on the speed and other characteristics of the broadband feed supplied by incumbents to their customers.

The current DSL scenario in Ireland is like opening a new grocery shop in your area and being forced by buy everything you sell from the nearest Dunnes Stores branch. While Dunnes might give you a small discount for being a big “wholesale” customer, the range of products you can offer to your customers and the quality will be identical to that sold by Dunnes. And you won’t be able to compete on price, unless you are prepared to sell at a gross loss. Surely this is no way to run a business!


Over 30% of DSL broadband lines in France are unbundled. McRedmond yesterday (on radio) made it sound as if it was a tiny fraction of a percent. They (unbundlers in France) provide private customers with up to 20 Mbits/sec down and 1 Mbis/sec up at rates that start at EUR 19.99 per month. Many of these unbundled offers include 50 to 200 TV channels and one or two phone lines with unlimited free calls to anywhere within the country with your own geographic or VoIP phone numbers (with a number porting option from FT to allow you to keep your old number). Offers like this would not be available if France had the same unbundling shambles as eircom have been able to foist on the Irish industry.

Loop unbundling was well advanced in the EU regulatory boat before eircom’s investors exposed themselves at the given share price. There is surely something wrong with a regulatory and legal system that entertains eircom’s loop unbundling delaying tactics when the EU unbundling directive was in the public domain for years?

The good news is that loop unbundling is profitable where it is allowed to function. The closest thing to a pure play loop unbundler in France is ILIAD. Last year they made EUR 53,1 million net profit.

eircom’s own DSL retail offering is over-priced. When one adds the high monthly cost of a phone line on top of this, is it any wonder that so few households can afford it? i.e. €39.99 for DSL and €24.18 for the line = €64.17 – for a basic low speed connection!


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European (EU) broadband scorecard:
http://www.ectaportal.com/uploads/BB%20Scorecard%20Q2%20051_final.xls

Gurgle

1. Eircom owns the copper. Its their DSL service that everyone else is selling. They can charge what they like.
2. Cable operators have been inexcusably slow to get off the ground to supply some competition.
3. WLAN - see cable

You're blaming Eircom for choosing the maximum-profit route to run the company ?

Any company will charge as much as they can, thats how business works

Those who should be providing competition are opting instead to just take their share of the cream.

probe wrote:

The current DSL scenario in Ireland is like opening a new grocery shop in your area and being forced by buy everything you sell from the nearest Dunnes Stores branch

No, its like opening a food stall inside Dunnes and not attempting to find an alternative supplier. Some companies are starting to sell alternatives but they price it based on what the competition's prices not on the cost to supply the service.

Thats how all the cartels in the country work.

Sponge Bob

This is maybe an IoffL Forum issue ...where all aspects of the

• highest LLU prices and
  
• highest line rental on the planet

have been done to death along with the complete regulatory failure that allowed eircom to get away with it.

Its not really a BB forum 'issue' , also see the excellent Comwreck site

probe

Originally posted by Gurgle:
Eircom owns the copper. Its their DSL service that everyone else is selling. They can charge what they like.

No they can't. They are a monopoly owner of copper and must operate within the legal framework (which includes the local loop unbundling directive).

Gurgle wrote:

You're blaming Eircom for choosing the maximum-profit route to run the company ?

There is an ethical profit maximization route (ie minimising your costs and maximising your sales) and there is an abuse of the legal system route - (like the cigarette companies) to put off compliance with the law (ie EU sourced law) for as long as possible. Unfortunately the gov.ie and odtr.ie and their successors comreg.ie have only paid lip service to the LLU issue and the people who subscribe to this list are paying through the nose as a result.

Gurgle wrote:

No, its like opening a food stall inside Dunnes and not attempting to find an alternative supplier. Some companies are starting to sell alternatives but they price it based on what the competition's prices not on the cost to supply the service.

I don't understand what you are getting at re the "food stall".
If you do read this group you will notice that the wireless alternatives don't work, for the most part. Comreg have issued licenses here, there and everywhere for wireless BB. The victims of this wireless explosion end up here.

We have seen a different regulatory mess in the cable TV broadband route with no BB requirement being imposed on licensees at all. Not to mention the fact that cable is only possible in urban areas.

There is no alternative to LLU!

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Airblazer

Gurgle wrote:

1. Eircom owns the copper. Its their DSL service that everyone else is selling. They can charge what they like.
2. Cable operators have been inexcusably slow to get off the ground to supply some competition.
3. WLAN - see cable

eircom should own fcukall..they were a state body and as such all hardware was paid for by taxpayers..it's bloody scandalous that still to this day we're putting up with this rubbish from this crap company..of course all of this is just typical of rip off ireland

Freddie59

Airblazer wrote:

eircom should own fcukall..they were a state body and as such all hardware was paid for by taxpayers..it's bloody scandalous that still to this day we're putting up with this rubbish from this crap company..of course all of this is just typical of rip off ireland

Agreed. But why the fcuk should we hand that infrastructure over to an even bigger show of avaracious cherry-pickers??:eek:

Freddie59

Gurgle wrote:

Cable operators have been inexcusably slow to get off the ground to supply some competition.

Depends on your definition of slow. NTL have rolled out BB in Galway/Waterford (completely) and are making huge inroads in Dublin. They've done in 8 months what it has taken Eircom since '98 to even cover a fraction of. Slow? I don't think so.:D

dub45

Airblazer wrote:

eircom should own fcukall..they were a state body and as such all hardware was paid for by taxpayers..it's bloody scandalous that still to this day we're putting up with this rubbish from this crap company..of course all of this is just typical of rip off ireland

While the taxpayer did of course pay for Eircom's assets prior to the sell off the state got a very healthy return on their investment when Eircom was sold off. That money is invested in our pension funds.:)

As someone remarked on the selling off of state owned assets we are being offered something we already own - amazing really!

probe

France Telecom were today fined €80 million by their regulator for obstructing loop unbundling and abusing its dominant position, based on a complaint by Neuf Telecom dating back five years. The maximum fine ComReg can impose is still a derisory €3,000 - despite a government promise to increase the fine ceiling to 10% of eircom's revenues. More lip service... The rip off continues and only a tiny proportion of the Irish population can get or afford broadband as a result of this.


www.arcep.fr

galwaydude

maybe things will change if swisscom take them over.

Eircom is as shoddy as they come,

Danno

I doubt it - the only reason anyone wants to buy eircom is to get all the 1.26c p/m dial up - then the 5c reconnect charge everytime the line drops - wonderful!

ThanK God and Digiweb for wireless!

ShiverinEskimo

Never thought i'd say it but yea - thank god for Digiweb and metro. Affordable and bloody fast and wireless.

probe

dub45 wrote:

While the taxpayer did of course pay for Eircom's assets prior to the sell off the state got a very healthy return on their investment when Eircom was sold off. That money is invested in our pension funds.:)

As someone remarked on the selling off of state owned assets we are being offered something we already own - amazing really!

Please stop confusing the issue!

Loop unbundling was in the EU legislative arena since 1998 and was well established when the current eircom shareholders bought their stake – i.e. LLU was “in the price” they paid. If they didn’t realise this, they should consider recourse to people who advised them on the share deal if they failed to point out the impact of same on the company’s asset value and revenues. It is no excuse for eircom to misuse the Irish legal and regulatory system to delay the arrival of current standard ADSL2+ 20 Mbits/sec broadband at €19.99!

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galwaydude wrote:

maybe things will change if swisscom take them over.

Eircom is as shoddy as they come,

While Swisscom is one of the better state controlled telcos and not subject to EU law, they are playing the same game when it comes to broadband competition. (And the fastest DSL speed available to consumers in CH is an eircom-like just over 2Mbits/sec).

http://www.nzz.ch/2005/10/21/eng/article6180023.html

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oisin

I wouldn't hold out too much hope of Swisscom making a difference galwaydude. They seem to be the Eircom of Switzerland - monopoly owning all the copper network - blocking LLU to competitors. Story in today's Indo business section.

"Telco faces ongoing broadband pricing probe

THE Swiss competition watchdog is investigating the broadband access pricing policy of Swisscom, the telecommunications giant which is bidding for Eircom."

http://www.unison.ie/irish_independent/stories.php3?ca=35&si=1502208&issue_id=13238

dub45

probe wrote:

Please stop confusing the issue!

Loop unbundling was in the EU legislative arena since 1998 and was well established when the current eircom shareholders bought their stake – i.e. LLU was “in the price” they paid. If they didn’t realise this, they should consider recourse to people who advised them on the share deal if they failed to point out the impact of same on the company’s asset value and revenues. It is no excuse for eircom to misuse the Irish legal and regulatory system to delay the arrival of current standard ADSL2+ 20 Mbits/sec broadband at €19.99!

probe

How am I confusing the issue? The 'current Eircom shareholders' bought Eircom from Valentia. I cannot see how pointing out that the State sold off Eircom and got plenty of money for it confuses any issue.

dub45

Freddie59 wrote:

Depends on your definition of slow. NTL have rolled out BB in Galway/Waterford (completely) and are making huge inroads in Dublin. They've done in 8 months what it has taken Eircom since '98 to even cover a fraction of. Slow? I don't think so.:D

Slow indeed - NTL are way behind schedule because of financial problems suffered by their parent Company.

http://archives.tcm.ie/businesspost/2001/01/21/story656140038.asp

Sam Vimes

probe wrote:

€39.99 for DSL

29.99 now

probe

Commander Vimes wrote:

29.99 now

The €29.99 offer is only an introductory price. After a few months it goes up to €39.99.

Forget the marketing crap and consult the "scheme" in quaint eircom civil service lingo -
http://www.eircom.ie/About/Activities/Sn1_pt18.pdf


probe

probe

dub45 wrote:

How am I confusing the issue? The 'current Eircom shareholders' bought Eircom from Valentia. I cannot see how pointing out that the State sold off Eircom and got plenty of money for it confuses any issue.

In:
>>"While the taxpayer did of course pay for Eircom's assets prior to the sell off the state got a very healthy return on their investment when Eircom was sold off. That money is invested in our pension funds".

There is an inference / you are suggesting (intentionally or otherwise) that eircom have some right or justification to rip customers off and delay widespread LLU because gov.ie got an (internet bubble) price for eircom.ie from the privatization transaction.

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dub45

probe wrote:

In:
>>"While the taxpayer did of course pay for Eircom's assets prior to the sell off the state got a very healthy return on their investment when Eircom was sold off. That money is invested in our pension funds".

There is an inference / you are suggesting (intentionally or otherwise) that eircom have some right or justification to rip customers off and delay widespread LLU because gov.ie got an (internet bubble) price for eircom.ie from the privatization transaction.

probe

I am not suggesting anything of the sort and I dont know how you can possibly read that into it:rolleyes: I simply pointed to a historical fact and made no comment on Eircoms behaviour.


How can somebody 'unintentionally' suggest something?

Sponge Bob

Eircom do this because of an inept and incompetent regulator . Abolish Comreg and create something with teeth and integrity to replace them . Eircom simply tell Comreg what they want and Comreg will always oblige.The highest priced LLU and WLR and Retail Line Rental in Europe were all agreed by Comreg .

Comreg even allowed the infrastructure to further crumble by setting the definition of Functional Intenet Access (USO directive 2002) from 2.4kbits down to 0k for over two years .

You would see results with a regulator that regulates , you never will with an incompetent mangy toothless mutt like Comreg, way it is Probe

Gurgle

Freddie59 wrote:

Depends on your definition of slow. NTL have rolled out BB in Galway/Waterford (completely) and are making huge inroads in Dublin. They've done in 8 months what it has taken Eircom since '98 to even cover a fraction of. Slow? I don't think so.:D

My definition of slow is that they're doing it now, not 8 years ago.

Whoope-doo, they're catching up fast on the 20th century.

UberNewb

I am no longer connected to crappy €ircon! :v:

3MB NTL and Blueface voip!

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dub45 wrote:

How can somebody 'unintentionally' suggest something?

Easy. Boy meets girl. He looks her attire over and comes to the instant conclusion that he knows what she wants. As it turns out she bought the dress because she saw a similar item on some TV prog last week. In reality, what is on his mind couldn’t be further from what is on her mind!

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UberNewb wrote:

I am no longer connected to crappy €ircon! :v:

3MB NTL and Blueface voip!

Lucky you! The other part of Morgan Stanley cable TV in Ireland (Chorus) is bloody appalling when it comes to BB etc. A lot worse than eircom.

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celticwarriorjb

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dub45

probe wrote:

Easy. Boy meets girl. He looks her attire over and comes to the instant conclusion that he knows what she wants. As it turns out she bought the dress because she saw a similar item on some TV prog last week. In reality, what is on his mind couldn’t be further from what is on her mind!

probe

Me thinks you need a very long break quickly:rolleyes:

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dub45 wrote:

Me thinks you need a very long break quickly:rolleyes:

Looking at your series of postings to this thread, I ask myself does DUB45 work for eircom?

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dub45

probe wrote:

Looking at your series of postings to this thread, I ask myself does DUB45 work for eircom?

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Given that my posts to the thread have been pointing out historical facts (whereas your own definitely border on the hysterical:rolleyes: )I would think that my employer in this case is larely irrelevant. But I hope that your good self replied to you other self that in fact I dont work for Eircom and that I have good enough reason to dislike them as much as anyone.