Holdem or foldem

ntlbell

Down to the last 6 of 100e freezeout blinds are 500/1000

I'm sitting with about 35k on the button dealt KJo the action is folded around to me I make it 5k to go, I'd being raising alot of hands from the button on this table, randomly showing big hands.

CL in the BB calls for 5k (her stack was about 55k) but built the stack from some dodgey calls e.g. called a big bet with A2 2 on the board no ace, guy turns over pocket aces she hits a 2 on the river, she built a big stack early on and always seemed to steal from the button.

The flop comes

A J 10

She comes out firing with a bet of 15k

What now?

Shortstack

ntlbell wrote:

Down to the last 6 of 100e freezeout blinds are 500/1000

I'm sitting with about 35k on the button dealt KJo the action is folded around to me I make it 5k to go, I'd being raising alot of hands from the button on this table, randomly showing big hands.

CL in the BB calls for 5k (her stack was about 55k) but built the stack from some dodgey calls e.g. called a big bet with A2 2 on the board no ace, guy turns over pocket aces she hits a 2 on the river, she built a big stack early on and always seemed to steal from the button.

The flop comes

A J 10

She comes out firing with a bet of 15k

What now?

Always be wary of someone who has been a calling station and then suddenly starts betting. Generally I have only seen these type of players bet like this with a monster.

ntlbell

Shortstack wrote:

Always be wary of someone who has been a calling station and then suddenly starts betting. Generally I have only seen these type of players bet like this with a monster.

I wouldn't say she was a calling station, most of the time I spent with her through the night she was coming out firing, the A2 was just an example of a dodgey call, she didn't make too many calls, most of the time she was raising.

Bozzer

I'd fold.
The stacks aren't deep enough to get BB off
a weak ace here, especially if they're prone to
dodgy calls.

It would be a large amount for BB to lead with on a bluff.
More likely protecting an Ace.

Only hands which you are ahead of that will probably call
a push are pair+draw combos {K1O,Q10,QJ} but that would be
a horrible way for BB to play them.

If stacks were deeper and villain could lay down a weak
ace then I'd say puuush.

karlh

*from fridge*

foldem.

The Troll

Definite foldem.

Shortstack

ntlbell wrote:

I wouldn't say she was a calling station, most of the time I spent with her through the night she was coming out firing, the A2 was just an example of a dodgey call, she didn't make too many calls, most of the time she was raising.

Then this is the description of her you should have put in your original question

Anyway it is still usually a fold. Big calls with second pair look good when you are right but generally cost you chips and make you look an ass.:eek:

Why are you raising 5* the big blind with KJ anyway? No problem raising with it but 5* is a bit excessive as you are chucking away 5k if you are re-raised.

padser

Def folding here. Calling leaves you absolutely crippled if your wrong (and there is at least a reasonable chance you are beat. You still have 30BB. No need to go gambling yet IMO.

The Troll

padser wrote:

Def folding here. Calling leaves you absolutely crippled if your wrong (and there is at least a reasonable chance you are beat. You still have 30BB. No need to go gambling yet IMO.

Even if you took this hand down by calling i still think folding a fold is the right move.

ntlbell

Shortstack wrote:

Then this is the description of her you should have put in your original question

Yeah sorry, the A2 call was really just showing how she grew the stack in the first place and an example of something she would do.

Davey Devil

Run for the hills.

ntlbell

Right I think foldem seems to be winning the vote so here's what happened.

Before this hand I was constantly at her BB and she seemed to be getting a bit annoyed, so when she called the 5k I think she put me on nothing and was about to make some sort of a stand and protect her BB.

She practically had the 15k out before the flop fully landed I just felt she was playing me rather than her cards as I was in good position to make more money with two very small stacks at the table I'd fold immediately.

I made the decision after an extremley long time in the tank I was going to stay in the hand if she has the A fair play to her.

So I decided not to push and just smooth call, all the chips are going in anyway at some point.

I knew as soon as I called she was very uncomfortable and didn't like it one bit.

turn comes a 7c and she pushes for the rest of her stack I called immediately and she shows Q5d

river's a blank.

Stupid play by me? Idiot call post flop? or a great read?

azzeretti

ntlbell wrote:

KJo the action is folded around to me I make it 5k to go,

Yeah, I think your inital raise would have me thinking if I was the BB. Five times the BB is screaming "Stealing" and I would call call this with any resonable hand (not any muck) to protect my blinds. When she comes out betting its time to call it a day.

azzeretti

ntlbell wrote:

Stupid play by me? Idiot call post flop? or a great read?

I made a similar call in the SE last Thursday much to the amazment of some of the people at the table. No, I think you made a great call based on your reasoning.

Davey Devil

Eh didn't you just totally contradict yourself?

azzeretti

yes, I did, didn't I!
I would have folded. But when he went on to explain the rest of the hand it appears he had it read correctly. So, fair play - good call.

BTW, I had posted the first response before he posted the rest of the hand

Davey Devil

The result of the hand doesn't change whether it was a good call or not.

azzeretti

He hadn't mention that he had been nicking her blinds all night. Nor, did he mention the aggressiveness of her post-flop bet. All this makes a big difference as to if it was a good call or not.
I hadn't this information before my first response. Sometimes, I think, a call can be made, regardless of the hand - e.g if the guy who raised you all-in is sweating like mad and last 100 times he was sweating he was bluffing, if if the pot odds are against you, in this extreme example, the call might still be good

Davey Devil

That's true. All the information at the start would have been helpful.

handsfree

yeah great call. the 15k bet just looks like one that doesn't want to be called and going all in on the turn just doesn't look like shes trying to reel u in for value

The Troll

Davey Devil wrote:

That's true. All the information at the start would have been helpful.

Exactly. Tells story. then profiles the hand, the player and the game as a whole in the "what happened" reply. based on the opening post i don't think it was a good call.

Base don the explanation further down, it was probably a good call.

ntlbell

The Troll wrote:

Exactly. Tells story. then profiles the hand, the player and the game as a whole in the "what happened" reply. based on the opening post i don't think it was a good call.

Base don the explanation further down, it was probably a good call.

The player was proflied before the "what happened" CL from a terrible call with A2 and from there just consntantly stealing from the button.

I left out how she threw in the 15k for a reason. all other information up to that point is there in the original post

kinaldo

ntlbell wrote:

I wouldn't say she was a calling station, most of the time I spent with her through the night she was coming out firing, the A2 was just an example of a dodgey call, she didn't make too many calls, most of the time she was raising.

lol, if she's not a calling station then i don't know what is. i was at the table where she called with A2 and hit a 2 on the turn. i could hear everyone whispering to each other how could she call! after the break with blinds 200/400 i raised 3.5bbs with 6h6d 2 callers flop 3d4d7d checked to me i bet over half the pot she calls, turn is a blank, i go all in. she calls and turns over AhTh no draws no nothing. Thankully she didn't hit one of her 4 outs and I more than double up.

ntlbell

kinaldo wrote:

lol, if she's not a calling station then i don't know what is. i was at the table where she called with A2 and hit a 2 on the turn. i could hear everyone whispering to each other how could she call! after the break with blinds 200/400 i raised 3.5bbs with 6h6d 2 callers flop 3d4d7d checked to me i bet over half the pot she calls, turn is a blank, i go all in. she calls and turns over AhTh no draws no nothing. Thankully she didn't hit one of her 4 outs and I more than double up.

ah yes, I remember that hand, I folded A10 when you came betting post flop, actually forgot about that call


I played with her for a good two hours and all she did was fold fold fold get the button and fire out 5k seemed to be the patteren of play.

I didn't see much of her for the first few hours so no idea what she was doing then.

padser

ntlbell wrote:

I knew as soon as I called she was very uncomfortable and didn't like it one bit.

Stupid play by me? Idiot call post flop? or a great read?

I think in the long run its def a -ev. You got it right, and fair play it was a good read. But even if you were correct and she didnt like the call, she could have had a weak ace. How often calling those bets would you be ahead?

Maybe its just that personally, I wouldnt be able to make that read and risk my entire tournament life on it, especially given iv enough chips to wait for a better spot.

kinaldo

so where did u finish up in the end...were u one of the 2 guys that split it? i busted out just before the bubble after AQ landed me in dire straights for the gazillionth time.

ntlbell

padser wrote:

I think in the long run its def a -ev. You got it right, and fair play it was a good read. But even if you were correct and she didnt like the call, she could have had a weak ace. How often calling those bets would you be ahead?

Maybe its just that personally, I wouldnt be able to make that read and risk my entire tournament life on it, especially given iv enough chips to wait for a better spot.

Definitley -EV

And it's not something I'll be doing again in a hurry!

ntlbell

kinaldo wrote:

so where did u finish up in the end...were u one of the 2 guys that split it? i busted out just before the bubble after AQ landed me in dire straights for the gazillionth time.

Yeah i'd a slight lead but didn't want to flip coins for another few hours as i was in work at 7 so we split it

kinaldo

well done, great result! i'd say wp but i'm not too sure about that KJ play...;)

ntlbell

kinaldo wrote:

well done, great result! i'd say wp but i'm not too sure about that KJ play...;)

Yeah I'm starting to like the tourny played it twice and cashed twice for a tidy little profit.

Maybe I learned something from your risky push with 66

kinaldo

ntlbell wrote:

Maybe I learned something from your risky push with 66

not really risky, i had too many possible outs to even contemplate folding at that stage. pushing added folding equity, and she really had no right to see my hand with that muck

Ste05

Well NTL, as promised, here's my response to the thread - it sounds like a very good call based on a good read and sound reasoning - I think based on the apparent tells she was giving off this is a +EV call, Even if she has the A, you still have outs with the K, J or Q.

However, if, as you say all the chips were going in the middle at some stage then I think you should push all-in with a re-raise here and now, take down the pot and teach her not to defend her blinds from your steals, if she folds, it'll teach her not to defend her blinds again and you should have no problem stealing them in the future, if she calls your next steal attempt, she'll more than likely check or at least be very wary of raising you OOP with a marginal hand, you can then peel off a free card if it will help you make a good draw, or whatever, but it gives you alot more options later in the tourney....

ntlbell

Ste05 wrote:

Well NTL, as promised, here's my response to the thread - it sounds like a very good call based on a good read and sound reasoning - I think based on the apparent tells she was giving off this is a +EV call, Even if she has the A, you still have outs with the K, J or Q.

However, if, as you say all the chips were going in the middle at some stage then I think you should push all-in with a re-raise here and now, take down the pot and teach her not to defend her blinds from your steals, if she folds, it'll teach her not to defend her blinds again and you should have no problem stealing them in the future, if she calls your next steal attempt, she'll more than likely check or at least be very wary of raising you OOP with a marginal hand, you can then peel off a free card if it will help you make a good draw, or whatever, but it gives you alot more options later in the tourney....

Push is the obvious thing to do, but to be honest, if I'm taken this risk and she wasn't holding the A I didn't really want her out of the hand I wanted to get as much out of it as posssible, and I knew she'd try push me off on the turn regardless.

I pretty much made my mind up after the flop I was going to double up and have a great chance at winning, or go home now.

Very next hand she went all in for the rest of her stack with KJo that ran into my AK, she really won't like me!