Call, Fold or Raise??? (HH)

Ste05

Went back to PokerStars for a while tonight, kept getting outdrawn on AllIn so needed to take a break from that, here an interesting hand, call, fold or raise??? Played with the villian only for 18 hands he seemed slightly loose and aggressive - raised 4 of those hands, seemed to raise 3x BB and then half pot continuation bet on flop, noone's called him down yet and so he hasn't showed any of his hands.....

PokerStars Game #3000062284: Hold'em No Limit ($0.50/$1.00) - 2005/11/07 - 20:39:18 (ET)
Table 'Mineura' Seat #6 is the button
Seat 1: Hero ($68.30 in chips)
Seat 2: trk182 ($65.10 in chips)
Seat 3: wearingred ($116.45 in chips)
Seat 4: Titleist10 ($67.85 in chips)
Seat 5: Charmer1973 ($67.30 in chips)
Seat 6: tarheelsteve ($52.85 in chips)
Seat 7: Villian ($107.05 in chips)
Seat 8: ShOcKWaVeZ ($86.45 in chips)
Seat 9: NextGretzky ($21.70 in chips)
Villian: posts small blind $0.50
ShOcKWaVeZ: posts big blind $1
*** HOLE CARDS ***
Dealt to Hero[Qh Qc]
NextGretzky: folds
Hero: raises $1 to $2
3 folds
Charmer1973: calls $2
tarheelsteve: folds
Villian: calls $1.50
ShOcKWaVeZ: folds
*** FLOP *** [Qd Th 6h]
Villian: checks
Hero: bets $3
Charmer1973: calls $3
Villian: raises $6 to $9
Hero: calls $6
Charmer1973: folds
*** TURN *** [Qd Th 6h] [As]
Villian: bets $12
Hero: calls $12
*** RIVER *** [Qd Th 6h As] [8h]
Villian: bets $24
Hero: ???????

Bozzer

Raise more preflop. Lead closer to pot on flop, definitely not $3.
Hand-reading wise, villain would probably re-raise AA preflop.
Check-raising this flop would be very strange with a flush draw as he is getting good odds.

I think his play looks like an overplayed underset and I would call the river. Because his flop play represents strength I would come over top of his check-raise and look to get it in on flop.
This will prevent a scare card from killing your action on turn and also charge the third player if he is drawing.

Why are you sitting with 68BB?

Hectorjelly

Dont min raise preflop, three bet flop, raise turn and call river.

careca

I would just flat call his bet on the river. He could easily have been betting a hand like KJh and hit one of his many outs on the river. If you do raise and hes any good, you are only getting called by a better hand.

jem

flat call river, you are either a mile in front or a mile behind.
In this case safety first.

bohsman

Hectorjelly wrote:

Dont min raise preflop, three bet flop, raise turn and call river.

Agreed... three betting flop should lead to it being all in on the turn anyway so no decision to make

Ste05

Well I was actually the Villian in this piece. I had KJh, this guy was quite passive and didn't seem to protect his hands very well. On the flop I had an up and down straight and second nut flush draw, and I wanted to give me the possibility of taking down a decent pot, I think this guy pretty much confirmed exactly what hand he had the way he played it, I'm not sure if I could have bet more on the end to extract any extra chips, but there was no way he was going to go over the top, so I needed to bet enough that he could still call.

PS well read Careca....

Thoughts on how this was played....

Ardent

Question for you - if he had gone all in after flop, after you had raised it up to $9, would you have called do you think?

Ste05

I would probably have folded if he re-raised all-in on the flop, don't think I'd be getting the right odds.....

Marq

Does anyone post hands where they are the hero anymore? Ste, you know this guy played his queens really badly, you played the hand pretty well.

I would probably have folded if he re-raised all-in on the flop, don't think I'd be getting the right odds.....

Agreed, though if you read your opponent for an over pair the odds suggest a call.

padser

His play was pretty bad though it has to be said
a) he only doubled BB wit QQ
b)bet $3 into $7 flop with the nuts
c)having been re raised he smoth called on the flop with the nuts

BTW i do like the $6 raise on the flop to build the pot in case you hit your outs.

Bozzer

Ste05 wrote:

I would probably have folded if he re-raised all-in on the flop, don't think I'd be getting the right odds.....

Ste, if he shows you QQ here you should call.You need
roughly 39% equity and you have 40% against QQ.

Only hand range you should fold to is {QQ,AQh} and even then
it's close.

A more reasonable range is {AA,KK,QQ,AQh} in which it's an instacall.

Ste05

Marq wrote:

Does anyone post hands where they are the hero anymore? Ste, you know this guy played his queens really badly, you played the hand pretty well.

ty, ty.... I actually don't know what he put me on to call that river bet, what could he still be beating after almost every concievable draw has hit - flush, KJ, J9, unless he put me on 2 pair or a complete bluff......

I know noone was at the table, but based on his play in this hand (pretty typical as it turned out for him) does anyone see him calling for the rest of his chips on the River.....

Ste05

Bozzer wrote:

Ste, if he shows you QQ here you should call.You need
roughly 39% equity and you have 40% against QQ.

Only hand range you should fold to is {QQ,AQh} and even then
it's close.

A more reasonable range is {AA,KK,QQ,AQh} in which it's an instacall.

Ye you're right, I was using the single draw versus a set, where the chances of him hitting a house, reduces the odds significantly, I see on the flop I was a 40.3% favoutite to win the pot, assuming he has QQ.

Although this is reduced to 27% if he has AQh, which he probably would have played the same way now that I think about it...

Although I would have still probably folded to an All-in, I wasn't drawing to the nut flush, and I don't like calling for all my chips without a strong made hand.... (now betting all-in is another thing entirely....;))

Bozzer

Your opponent was correct in calling if he figured you could have
TT/66 here. He doesn't need to be right 100%. Your giving him
odds of just over 3:1.

I think your river bet was a good amount considering the 8h
completed a lot of draws. Can't really say if he would call off
the rest, but I would probably bet a similar amount.

padraig_f

Is faking of hands the norm now too?
I was reading late last night and not expecting to see the answer until the following day, I requested the hand history...

PokerStars Game #3000062284: Hold'em No Limit ($0.50/$1.00) - 2005/11/07 - 20:39:18 (ET)
Table 'Mineura' Seat #6 is the button
Seat 1: Cereal5 ($68.30 in chips)
Seat 2: trk182 ($65.10 in chips)
Seat 3: wearingred ($116.45 in chips)
Seat 4: Titleist10 ($67.85 in chips)
Seat 5: Charmer1973 ($67.30 in chips)
Seat 6: tarheelsteve ($52.85 in chips)
Seat 7: Poker_Brat11 ($107.05 in chips)
Seat 8: ShOcKWaVeZ ($86.45 in chips)
Seat 9: NextGretzky ($21.70 in chips)
Poker_Brat11: posts small blind $0.50
ShOcKWaVeZ: posts big blind $1
*** HOLE CARDS ***
NextGretzky: folds
NextGretzky leaves the table
Cereal5: raises $1 to $2
trk182: folds
wearingred: folds
Titleist10: folds
Charmer1973: calls $2
tarheelsteve: folds
Poker_Brat11: calls $1.50
ShOcKWaVeZ: folds
*** FLOP *** [Qd Th 6h]
kimckimc joins the table at seat #9
Poker_Brat11: checks
Cereal5: bets $3
Charmer1973: calls $3
Poker_Brat11: raises $6 to $9
Cereal5: calls $6
Charmer1973: folds
*** TURN *** [Qd Th 6h] [As]
Poker_Brat11: bets $12
Cereal5: calls $12
*** RIVER *** [Qd Th 6h As] [8h]
Poker_Brat11: bets $24
Cereal5: calls $24
*** SHOW DOWN ***
Poker_Brat11: shows [8d Jd] (a pair of Eights)
Cereal5: shows [Qh Qc] (three of a kind, Queens)
Cereal5 collected $97 from pot
*** SUMMARY ***
Total pot $100 | Rake $3
Board [Qd Th 6h As 8h]
Seat 1: Cereal5 showed [Qh Qc] and won ($97) with three of a kind, Queens
Seat 2: trk182 folded before Flop (didn't bet)
Seat 3: wearingred folded before Flop (didn't bet)
Seat 4: Titleist10 folded before Flop (didn't bet)
Seat 5: Charmer1973 folded on the Flop
Seat 6: tarheelsteve (button) folded before Flop (didn't bet)
Seat 7: Poker_Brat11 (small blind) showed [8d Jd] and lost with a pair of Eights
Seat 8: ShOcKWaVeZ (big blind) folded before Flop
Seat 9: NextGretzky folded before Flop (didn't bet)

The Troll

padraig_f wrote:

Is faking of hands the norm now too?
I was reading late last night and not expecting to see the answer until the following day, I requested the hand history...

PokerStars Game #3000062284: Hold'em No Limit ($0.50/$1.00) - 2005/11/07 - 20:39:18 (ET)
Table 'Mineura' Seat #6 is the button
Seat 1: Cereal5 ($68.30 in chips)
Seat 2: trk182 ($65.10 in chips)
Seat 3: wearingred ($116.45 in chips)
Seat 4: Titleist10 ($67.85 in chips)
Seat 5: Charmer1973 ($67.30 in chips)
Seat 6: tarheelsteve ($52.85 in chips)
Seat 7: Poker_Brat11 ($107.05 in chips)
Seat 8: ShOcKWaVeZ ($86.45 in chips)
Seat 9: NextGretzky ($21.70 in chips)
Poker_Brat11: posts small blind $0.50
ShOcKWaVeZ: posts big blind $1
*** HOLE CARDS ***
NextGretzky: folds
NextGretzky leaves the table
Cereal5: raises $1 to $2
trk182: folds
wearingred: folds
Titleist10: folds
Charmer1973: calls $2
tarheelsteve: folds
Poker_Brat11: calls $1.50
ShOcKWaVeZ: folds
*** FLOP *** [Qd Th 6h]
kimckimc joins the table at seat #9
Poker_Brat11: checks
Cereal5: bets $3
Charmer1973: calls $3
Poker_Brat11: raises $6 to $9
Cereal5: calls $6
Charmer1973: folds
*** TURN *** [Qd Th 6h] [As]
Poker_Brat11: bets $12
Cereal5: calls $12
*** RIVER *** [Qd Th 6h As] [8h]
Poker_Brat11: bets $24
Cereal5: calls $24
*** SHOW DOWN ***
Poker_Brat11: shows [8d Jd] (a pair of Eights)
Cereal5: shows [Qh Qc] (three of a kind, Queens)
Cereal5 collected $97 from pot
*** SUMMARY ***
Total pot $100 | Rake $3
Board [Qd Th 6h As 8h]
Seat 1: Cereal5 showed [Qh Qc] and won ($97) with three of a kind, Queens
Seat 2: trk182 folded before Flop (didn't bet)
Seat 3: wearingred folded before Flop (didn't bet)
Seat 4: Titleist10 folded before Flop (didn't bet)
Seat 5: Charmer1973 folded on the Flop
Seat 6: tarheelsteve (button) folded before Flop (didn't bet)
Seat 7: Poker_Brat11 (small blind) showed [8d Jd] and lost with a pair of Eights
Seat 8: ShOcKWaVeZ (big blind) folded before Flop
Seat 9: NextGretzky folded before Flop (didn't bet)

Oh dear not another one of these ridiculous made up hands. How depressing

Ste05

Ah lads you wrecked it, I was waiting for a few more responses as to whether he'd call for all his chips, then I was going to post the third and final twist, as in should I have tried to bluff him all-in to win the hand.

I was playing this hand after he called my turn bet, with the intention of bluffing the River if a scare card fell, and also because he had layed down some hands previously to a decent bet on a less connected board, I had a great image at the table and wanted to try and exploit it..

I had him pegged as extremely weak tight and thought this smaller bet had a better chance of making him lay it down,

But that's all academic now, let the flaming begin.....

Hitchhiker's Guide to...

lol - this is a crazy thread - feeling dizzy ... cold war russia probably had less twists and turns...

The Troll

Ste05 wrote:

Ah lads you wrecked it, I was waiting for a few more responses as to whether he'd call for all his chips, then I was going to post the third and final twist, as in should I have tried to bluff him all-in to win the hand.

I was playing this hand after he called my turn bet, with the intention of bluffing the River if a scare card fell, and also because he had layed down some hands previously to a decent bet on a less connected board, I had a great image at the table and wanted to try and exploit it..

I had him pegged as extremely weak tight and thought this smaller bet had a better chance of making him lay it down,

But that's all academic now, let the flaming begin.....

<cough>

sure thing

</cough>

Ste05

The Troll wrote:

<cough>

sure thing

</cough>

There's no point in trying to defend it so I won't, you either believe me or don't, but if you read back it might make sense.....

careca

Ste05 wrote:

Well I was actually the Villian in this piece. I had KJh, this guy was quite passive and didn't seem to protect his hands very well. On the flop I had an up and down straight and second nut flush draw, and I wanted to give me the possibility of taking down a decent pot, I think this guy pretty much confirmed exactly what hand he had the way he played it, I'm not sure if I could have bet more on the end to extract any extra chips, but there was no way he was going to go over the top, so I needed to bet enough that he could still call.

PS well read Careca....

Thoughts on how this was played....

Typical. I get one call right and I'm still wrong. LOL. I must admit when I read Padraig_f's reply I burst out laughing, but you did ask about the all in bet, so I do believe you now. Funny though.

Ste05

careca wrote:

Typical. I get one call right and I'm still wrong. LOL. I must admit when I read Padraig_f's reply I burst out laughing, but you did ask about the all in bet, so I do believe you now. Funny though.

More annoying really than anything, I look like a complete eejit now, :mad: I just wish I didn't wait so long, I was looking for even 1 more response as to the all-in call....

ah well, I think I'll just have to be quiet for a while til it all blows over .... :cool: thanks for the support though....

mewso

I believe you. There now a moderator has added weight to your claims.

Marq

What the fúck?

First off, why is it a problem that Ste invented a hand? Discussing hypothetical situations in poker is just as valid as discussing actual situations.

Secondly, why not just post the hand as it was Ste, with you as the hero and J8d as the hand? Surely if you were wondering what people thought of how you played the hand you would have been better off posting the hand itself, and not this meandering mess of a thread? I just think that you would have gained more in the way of discussion if you hadn't approached this from such an obtuse angle.

There's nothing particularly interesting about the hand if KJh was the hand of the hero (villian? Jesus.) The queens played it pretty badly, the KJ played it pretty well, everyone is agreed on this, yada yada yada, pretty boring thread. The J8 actually makes it interesting, but you could have made it interesting at the start.

Ste05

Marq wrote:

There's nothing particularly interesting about the hand if KJh was the hand of the hero (villian? Jesus.) The queens played it pretty badly, the KJ played it pretty well, everyone is agreed on this, yada yada yada, pretty boring thread. The J8 actually makes it interesting, but you could have made it interesting at the start.

Good point, well made, I just wanted some reads on the particular hand range to play have played like this, and whether the river call was an easy one or not ...... they weren't forthcoming ....... so I tried another convaluted tac,:rolleyes: :rolleyes: i.e ask what he was putting me on, and if he would call the all-in ....... (this crappy idea didn't work out to well either, but how and ever)

I think it might have worked out as a good thread in the end, however I think from now on it's easier to just to ask the question up front, once bitten, twice shy, etc. etc.